Author Topic: 1985 1.6 wont start!!! (Read 3377 times)

kane66 · « **on:** July 09, 2008, 09:50:37 pm »

If you frequent VW Vortex you will already have read of my ongoing battle with my car. This is my pitiful story. My IP pump started leaking So I brought it to the Local Mechanic Running to have this Item Changed. To Save money I ordered a rebuilt Pump on line from "Prothe" aka Pete Rotenburge. Mechanic installed pump... Car wouldn't start. So I had the pump checked out by Diesel Injection Services. It leaked. So I had them Re-seal it. The pump was then reinstalled on my jetta.... Still wouldn't start. Mechanic fiddled around with it for a total of 6 months and could not get the dang thing to run. By this time I'm blaming the Mechanic. Anyway picked up the car and brought it home to try and determine the problem. Got it started by a pull start... but would only run very roughly WOT, and was billowing gray smoke with unburnt diesel spraying out the tail pipe...

What the mechanic verified. It's not the Injectors. The compression is plenty good enough for it to start, and the valves are adjusted properly.

What I've verified. The timing is correct between the cam and the pistons. IE the TDC mark on the fly wheel actually corresponds to TDC. And they are lined up perfectly. The timing on the pump is set at 1.02 mm So fairly advanced but not outside of what is acceptable.

Any Ideas out there of what to try next.

What I'm thinking is...

ensure there is no blockage in the fuel lines...
If that doesn't work pop test the injectors while on the car to insure they are spraying at the right part of the stroke.

But anything anyone can think of would be greatly appreciated...

jimfoo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2008, 10:01:03 pm »

I'd make sure it is giving fuel to the proper cylinder at the proper time, like you said. The cam plate could be 180 out, or maybe you could have the lines on the wrong cylinders? Make sure no air is getting in the fuel lines. You do have a clear section don't you?

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2008, 10:39:54 pm »

I'm with Jimfoo... classic signs of the pump being reassembled 180 degrees out: no start unless under massive cranking like a pull start, lots of smoke, no power, and barely running when it does go.

Did Diesel Injection Services have a test bed available to confirm that the pump worked after they resealed it ? If not... the pump would be my prime suspect at this point... you've pretty much narrowed it down.

Cherchez la pump. :wink:

kane66 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2008, 09:15:36 am »

I'm not sure what a "test bed" is but after it was resealed and wouldn't run I called up Diesel injection services and they said the bench tested it and it passed. They even called my Mechanic to try and help him figure out the problem. About it being 180 out my mechanic says that he tried that but determined that wasn't the problem. But at this point I'm willing to try it again. Is it possible for it to be 90 out. I was also wondering what the firing order for the cylinders. IE what post on the injector pump is supposed to go with which cylinder.

jimfoo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2008, 10:47:47 am »

Top closest to engine is #1, below is #2, next bottom is #4, then other top is #3. Can't be 90 out only on or 180 out.

gigaz2 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:50:09 am »

I can't understand how the cam being 180º out can affect the timing as the pin is aligned with the top of a lobe, and 180º after is the top of another lobe.

only on 3,5 or 6 cylinder IP this should be an issue.

why doesn't it work like that on the real world?

jimfoo · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:01:54 pm »

It will send fuel to the wrong cylinder relative to valve and piston timing.

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:59:12 pm »

Quote from: "libbybapa"

meaning that the delivery port of the plunger will be aligned to the wrong orifice in the fuel delivery head.

Andrew

Which is why the "unburned fuel spraying out the tailpipe" is suggestive of a 180 camplate issue... that's what you'll get if your pump is injecting fuel during the exhaust stroke rather than the intake stroke.

Depending on the test bench they might have been able to confirm that fuel is being ejected from the pump in the right sequence, but might have missed that the sequence is 180 degrees out.

Just a theory, for sure, but t'were it my car and I'd already taken the steps you have I'd probably be pulling the pump apart to confirm that it was reassembled correctly.

gigaz2 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2008, 01:05:32 pm »

ahhh got it, instead of diesel going into cyl#1 just before TDC (on the end of the compression stroke), it goes into Cyl#4 witch is on the end of the exhaust stroke... havoc, white smoke.. not good

EDIT:
if I take the fuel lines off the pump, and rotate the engine by hand, will I see fuel coming out (dribbling) on the correct order?

jtanguay · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:20:02 pm »

Quote from: "gigaz2"

ahhh got it, instead of diesel going into cyl#1 just before TDC (on the end of the compression stroke), it goes into Cyl#4 witch is on the end of the exhaust stroke... havoc, white smoke.. not good

EDIT:
if I take the fuel lines off the pump, and rotate the engine by hand, will I see fuel coming out (dribbling) on the correct order?

that should work... although probably not the preferred method. i'm sure someone has the correct order. or just look at someones complete motor setup :wink:

gigaz2 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2008, 04:03:44 pm »

that was just to check if the camplate is at 180º without disassembling the pump.

especially for the ones that dismantled the pump without taking note of the way it was before.

burn_your_money · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2008, 05:47:52 pm »

Some pump pulleys have two identical timing holes so it is possible to time it 180 degrees out. If you think that the cam plate is out 180 just turn the pump pulley (timing belt disconnected) 180 and set it back to 1.00 mm advance and see what happens.

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:18:52 pm »

What you lot are talking about sounds way way way out of my league but when i changed the seals on my pump for veg i had to drag it for a loonnggg time before it would go on it's own. 4th or 3rd , IE low rpm, with good torque, IE so fairly quickly... momentum is your friend and a good car to tow you :wink: i had to be towed by my mate for at least .... uhhh hard to say numarically.... 4 times around my block. you'll think it's running and you're good to go ... but you're not. TONS of terrible looking smoke will exit for a while and just keep your foot to the floor that will help the pump get full and lose the air just don't rear-end your mate. seriously feel free to just keep going and going. if it had the pump off for as long as you said there would be NO fuel in the lines and TONS of air to bleed out