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For you racers and suspension gurus
by
lord_verminaard
on 11 May, 2005 11:24
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The question of suspension on VW's comes up a lot and is highly debated. Picking through the millions of posts on Vhertex by large handfuls of "boy racer" types doesnt lead to much of a solution. So here's what I want, see what you all can come up with.
I know that excessive lowering is not good unless you have some sort of drop-spindle or other equipment so that the control arms are not above parallel. I dont want to go that far- I do not plan on racing the car competitvely, maybe a few auto-x for fun but not for points. Coil-overs are out of the question, I dont want to mess with them. I care about handling and "reasonable" road comfort. I honestly dont care how low the drop is. A tad lower than stock to take away the 4x4 look is about all I care about as far as looks go. What I've come up with so far is that H&R "race" springs matched with Bilstiens are good for about a 1" drop, but I'm worried that they might be too stiff. I read that Suspension Techniques springs are about a 1.2" front, 1.3" rear, and I know that S.T. makes some high quality stuff for F-bodies but I have not been able to find a set of these spings. Are there some other brands that I should look for? I know some of you guys that race probably have setups that are too aggressive for the street but you obviously know what works and what doesnt. Thanks much!
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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#1
by
PYRO
on 11 May, 2005 15:16
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first of all coil-overs got a bad name for "boy-racers" because they can adjust the hight, the true reason for coil-overs is so that you can "corner-balance" your car to GREATLY improve handling beyond the standard spring and shocks/struts. Now that I got that out of the way....
I have H&R Race springs and Koni Yellow shocks/sturts on my GTI, now it is an 03 GTI, but the Race springs for my car are more like a 2" drop, and the over-all stiffness is decided from the shocks/struts which in my case are adjustable. My car rides great not to stiff at all, but a lot of body roll has been removed from the equation. I just drove over 600miles each way from DE to MA and was as comfortable as can be. BTW my wife doesn't complain either so you know it's gotta be good!
I just thought that you would have better comparison to compare two VW's instead of a VW-GM.
BTW you should see if you can get the H&R Sport springs the drop is not as low and the spring rate is not as high...
The higher the srping rate the stiffer the spring!
Hope that I helped out a bit.
Jay
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#2
by
vwmike
on 12 May, 2005 16:18
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I don't think I would recommend the H&R sport springs unless you're going to run them with bilsteins or koni's. The rates are just too soft and they can easily bottom out. I've found there is a good balance to be had with the weitec suspension kits though.
As for what I've used
-Neuspeed (H&R) sport springs with OE shocks/struts - springs weren't stiff enough to keep the suspension from bottoming out. It wasn't even all that low. Their quote of 1.25" was about right.
-Jamex - not available anymore but it was too soft. Really low though
-Koni sport suspension kit - Not all that low but rode very well and handled reasonably well. I don't think these springs were stiff enough either though as it was like you had to turn up the dampening to get a good feel of the road which makes you overconfident and then you find out the break away point was a lot lower than you figured.
-H&R Coilovers - I just bought these to replace the koni suspension and the car isn't on the road yet so I can't really tell you how those are just yet.
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#3
by
greggearhead
on 18 May, 2005 20:59
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Springs arent what keep a suspension from bottoming out - the valving in the dampers is. Running any "sport" spring with stock or soft dampers will result in a poor ride and poor handling. I have seen it and riden in it many times when friends have tried to cheap-out.
A great compromise combo is the Neuspeed or H&R Sport springs with Boge Turbogas dampers. Lowers around 1", stiffens things up enough to be fun in the twistys, but not so much to knock your teeth out.
If you use stiff dampers with soft springs or vice versa, the handling will not be very good and the ride will suck. Match the rates and you will be fine.
If you have the cash, the Bilsteins or Koni yellows are great, but much stiffer. Gravel roads and potholes will not be your friends.
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#4
by
lord_verminaard
on 19 May, 2005 07:55
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Well, that 1" drop sounds about right- and the price on the Boge Turbogas struts is easier to swallow than Bilsteins. I've never ridden in any A1 car with suspension modifications, so I dont know what feels good. I just go by what I've heard/read about, and there seems to be a lot of Vhortexers unhappy with the H&R sports, either too low, bottoms out, etc.. but they are all probably running on different dampers too. Too confusing!!!
Anyone used FK springs? I think they are sold by NGP.
I'm just afraid I'll make the wrong choice and end up with what I dont want. Thankfully, I have some time before I make the purchaces.
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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#5
by
greggearhead
on 19 May, 2005 08:50
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You might actually call up Neuspeed and H & R and ask what they recommend - it has been a while since I worked at a company that carried them so I don't have any names to ask for or anything, but if you are going to be buying their product, I am sure they would be glad to help and give you recommendations.
I have never ever had an issue with H&R or Neuspeed stuff. Top quality.
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#6
by
lord_verminaard
on 19 May, 2005 18:05
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Good to know. Thanks!
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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#7
by
hillfolk'r
on 25 Feb, 2006 11:34
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way backinthe day,,on my 83 gti,this was the early 90's,ididnt have alotta money,,,,wellwhats changed there?,but anyways,,ihad jamex springs(like 1.5 inch infront,about an inch in rear,,and had boge pro gas dampers,,,was a nice setupfor cheap,,,i havent researched anything in a while,,ibet theres better out there,,the pro gas dampers were nice though,,it rode nice a little stiffer thanstock,,and it bottomed out less too
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#8
by
RabbitGTDguy
on 25 Feb, 2006 15:56
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I'm in agreement with the above. Currently I now run Bilstein sports on Ground Control coilovers w/ Eibach ERS springs and love the setup. It is made to tune...
However...before that I ran H&R sports and loved them. The above is correct though and is going to be similar between both H&R and Neuspeed progressive springs. They are recommended by H&R to run a "sport" strut with them. That can range from your Bilstein, Koni variety to also your Boge turbogas as well on the LOWER end.
I will tell you though that I ran Boge ProGas on my H&R setup and the struts were toasted pretty quickly. They would also bottom out too. Part of the problem is in the "design" of the struts themselves. The Boge turbogas I believe still use the same size of shaft compared to stock. When you lower the car (1.25 with sport springs from stock) your compressing that shaft that much closer to the bottom of the strut which makes them so much easier to "bottom" in cornering or pot hole city.
The Bilsteins I run are the "sport" version...they have a shorter shaft and are thus the choice to use in lowering situations. They also produce a "HD" Bilstein that is recommended for OEM ride height and "heavy" loads. These are really nice units as well! The ride is quite amazing still with weight on the car, etc. but maintains the OEM look. Koni, I'm not sure whether they run two different versions or not? I always though Koni was more dedicated to the "lowering" and "sport" end of the spectrum. Progas is another "sport" unit, another step down from Turbogas.
IMO...alot of it comes down to your dampeners... the progas I ran on the H&R setup wasn't meant for that type of a spring...however, they are an awesome choice of the "upgrade" over stock and were nice while they lasted. When the H&R sports were coupled with the Bilsteins... THEY were awesome! Not as firm and tight as it is now but the right quality around rough roads, etc. was still close to stock yet for spirited driving the car felt like it was on rails. To my recollection as well...both Neuspeed and H&R used the same spring winders if I remember correctly unless that has changed. They both lower the same height... sports at 1.25-1.5" and "race" at 1.5-1.75". Another suspension place you might want to check into is Shine
http://www.shineracing.com/ They are well known in the VW circle as well as others...
I can't say you can get ALOT of good info from the 'tex...as said, so much of it is "boy racer" style stuff anymore its hard to distinguish. Check out the "suspension" forums and look for "vendors" specifically and those that do autox/track runs, etc. You'll find some good stuff.
What are you looking for specifically though?
On a seperate note. I believe Suspension Techniques springs used to be carried in JCW ... they along with "Jamex" I have heard were among the worst combinations for used on the road...they are "looks mainly" units. I've always preferred the German wound units and such. I think ST specifically were discontinued, but def. don't quote me on that. I see them pop up used every now and then...
Which platform are you on? I have a complete spare set of Bilstein struts sitting here if you ever become interested...
Joe
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#9
by
lord_verminaard
on 26 Feb, 2006 09:19
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Thanks for the info! It's been a while.
Still no new suspension, but every day I drive on the blown struts it motivates me more and more to finish the Camaro and get it gone.
I have a set of HOR springs for the rear, which to my research, is good for 1 to 1.5" drop for the rear. I'm thinking of using A2 GLI springs, cut to the right length, with Bonrath/Jom upper strut mounts. I hear that those upper mounts can lower .5 to .75 without lessening travel. I'll try and get another .5 or so with the spring length, which overall should make a nice combo. I plan on Bilstein sports all around to match. I've already put in poly bushings on nearly everything and will finish that when I do the rest of the suspension. Unfortunately, I do not have the funds for this project yet, but hopefully that will change when the Camaro is sold in the springtime. At the same time, the brakes and wheels/tires are going on as well, which is probalby going to be more work than the struts. I have a really pretty set of 15x7 wheels that are a 5x100 bolt pattern that are going to get blasted and powder coated. I'll be converting the car to 5x100 bolt pattern, with 11" VR6 brakes up front, and "normal" discs in the rear. Also replacing the master cylinder with a manual unit, and of course, stainless steel brake lines. I've pretty much got the whole project layed out, the cost of the brakes is going to depend on how cheap I can get the stuff from the junkyard!
The rotors will be stock, (and probably used!!) for now, but for pads I'll use EBC greens. There will be other details, like E-brake cables, etc.. but it shouldnt be that bad. So there it is, my spring/summer project.
Next, will be engine/transmission! Then.... bodywork..... then, coronary...
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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#10
by
hillfolk'r
on 27 Feb, 2006 20:11
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boge progas are "better" than the turbogas,,for lowered setups,,at least theycosted way more than the turbogas,i know cost isnt everything,,but theyacted like the progas was the top shelf,above the turbogas,,i think a set at the time was around 150 or so(90's),,iwas told that the progas had a comfort zone,and a sport zone came in the more they were compressed,,they were nice w/ the lowered progressive rate jamex springs,,,i didnt have alot of money then,and jamex was the "cheapest" prog rate avalable,,,,,dont know if id use same setupagain,,stepup real tobilstien or somethin,,,if iremember right ,i got progas set of 4for 200 or so,,,and springs for 140,,and that was early 90's,,,,,,,deo had bilstiens,with stock springs and it was sweet! iwas always jealous of them