Author Topic: Rebuild costs on diesels  (Read 12218 times)

May 05, 2005, 07:56:32 am

veeman

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« on: May 05, 2005, 07:56:32 am »
I've been reading about everyone's different rebuild projects and I'm wondering why diesel rebuilds are so costly and work intensive.

Although I'm new to the diesel scene, I've rebuilt a couple gas VW/Audi four and five cylinder engines and it seems to me that the diesel rebuilds require more work and signifigantly more expense.  

Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems people are getting blocks overbored, replacing pistons,  doing some pretty serious head work and the like.  The gas engines I've touched haven't really needed work/costly repairs to that extent.  Seems like that if I was faced with boring a gas block /replacing pistons or finding another "good" one to re-ring, it would be an easy choice.

So... my guesses are that:

1.  Diesel engines have a rougher life resulting in more wear/rebuild items (due to high compression? overheating? egg-shaped cylinders?)

2.  People put 2-3 times the amount of miles on a diesel, then keep the same motor and rebuild it after it's REALLY worn. Gas folk tend to toss the motor and put another one in.

3.  Diesel motors are more rare and that requires more rebuilds than straight engine swaps / replacments (as the gas folk would do).

4.  Not as many diesels were sold in the US, so the parts price is higher (limited demand / production) and the expertise to do the machine work comes at a premium.

I'm pondering my own TD rebuild and it seems like I'll spend WAY more on redoing this engine than on similar gas projects.  Rebuilt motors from specialized diesel shops seem to be shockingly high as well..

Any thoughts?  Maybe it's all in my head.
81 Caddy TD
98 Audi A4 Quattro V6 TDI
83 VW GTI FSP
86 4ktq

Reply #1May 05, 2005, 09:24:33 am

fspGTD

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2005, 09:24:33 am »
The diesel has very tight piston-wall clearance requirements.  The piston-wall clearance is something like 1 or 2 thousandths, so usually to do a complete and correct rebuild, purchasing a new set of pistons are required.  Typical gasser piston-wall clearances are much less tight, so you might be able to get away doing technically complete rebuilds with just a re-hone and re-use the existing pistons.  That is rarely the case for a diesel.  Sure lots of folks get away with it, but it is a cut corner that will manifest itself in reduced lifespan of the motor.  So, in diesels to do a correct complete rebuild you usually always need to replace the pistons.

The diesel pistons are also expensive, as the diesel pistons are a pretty specialized design and also probably cost more to manufacture.  Specifically, they have a steel strut inside them that is there to control thermal expansion (making them called "autothermic".)  The top ring carrier also is also cast with a different metal called resistal (to promote longer life than just leaving aluminum touching the top ring).  I don't know if the gas pistons have that feature, maybe the newer ones for turbocharged  application do, but my guess is the naturally aspirated gasser pistons are pretty much just a plain hunk of homogenous aluminum - and so, much cheaper to manufacture.

Indeed, a big chunk of the cost to rebuild these motors is just in buying the pistons.  Figure about $100 / piston for a 1.6lTD piston, four of them come out to $400.  Naturally aspirated diesel pistons are much cheaper, and 1.9lIDI pistons are much more.  TDI pistons are the worst.  If you think is costs a lot to rebuild these older diesels, for kicks go price out a new set of TDI pistons sometime!  (And TDIs still have the same tight, piston-wall clearance specs I believe as the older diesels do, too.)

As for head work, I don't see how a diesel head would be more costly than a gasser head to rebuild, really.  Although there are a couple things that come to mind: an IDI diesel head can't be resurfaced without special equipment / techniques, because of the hardened prechamber inserts.  This isn't a problem if you just find the right guy with the right technique and tools (and there are at least a couple of ways it can be done...)  Although some of us here pay extra to have the cracks between the valves welded up, it is really optional and will not cause a problem unless the cracks get wide enough to the point there is risk they could break through to the water jacket.

When assembling the head, you can't just pick a standard head gasket.  You've got to measure piston projections and pick the correct thickness of head gasket.  That is an extra step the engine builder will need to take.

Add to the technical difficulties discussed above, all the stuff you mentioned about supply and demand, which I think is more or less true.  I think that old gasser motors are not in demand as there are a lot of them out there in the market, while old diesels are more rare to start with, and are in even more demand than they've ever been now, as there are lots of folks wanting to find vehicles suitable for bio-diesel or waste veggie fuel conversions.  Or there are folks who just want to take advantage of the fuel economy and reliability of the diesel, at a time when gas prices are high, as is the public visibility of our nation's dependency on overseas oil, and since the internet bubble burst, people are increasingly cost-conscious.  This makes finding say, a rebuildable TD core, on short notice when you find that you need one, next to impossible.  Luckily, the aftermarket has kicked in at least readily available sources for buying outright brand new stuff (including replacement new cylinder heads, and complete motors.)
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #2May 05, 2005, 10:38:44 am

veeman

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2005, 10:38:44 am »
Wow... great information!  Thanks Jake.

>> Typical gasser piston-wall clearances are much less tight, so you might be able to get away doing technically complete rebuilds with just a re-hone and re-use the existing pistons.

Ah...That makes sense.  That's what I did with my Audi and the FSP gas engine.

>> Specifically, they have a steel strut inside them that is there to control thermal expansion (making them called "autothermic".)

I had no idea of that type of structure.  I'd be interested in seeing a cross section or a diagram of how that works.  Does the steel ensure even expansion or is it there for strength (due to high compression)?

>>Indeed, a big chunk of the cost to rebuild these motors is just in buying the pistons.  Figure about $100 / piston for a 1.6lTD piston, four of them come out to $400.  

Incidentally, I'll need a set for mine and the one place I checked said there was only a few sets available from the distributor.  Are those sets pretty rare or made in batches or something?  What manufacturers make pistons?

>> an IDI diesel head can't be resurfaced without special equipment / techniques, because of the hardened prechamber inserts.  

That's kind of what I was referring to...that and I thought I had read that resurfacing was tricky due to the tolerances involved and cam alignment (like jack's 5-cyl).

>> while old diesels are more rare to start with, and are in even more demand than they've ever been now, as there are lots of folks wanting to find vehicles suitable for bio-diesel or waste veggie fuel conversions.  

Exactly!  I'm seeing this more and more.  Just glance at ebay to see what the diesels are going for.  Yikes!
81 Caddy TD
98 Audi A4 Quattro V6 TDI
83 VW GTI FSP
86 4ktq

Reply #3May 06, 2005, 09:05:07 am

jackbombay

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2005, 09:05:07 am »
Great info Jake, sounds like I will need new pistons for sure  :(  They have some room to move around for sure, well over a thousandth or 2.  

    Are the pistons for my 2.0L 5 banger TD EXACTLY the same as the 1.6L TDs? I sent vwdieselparts.com an e-mail and they said their supplier showed no pistons avalible for the audi 2.0 TD :?:  and they mentioned nothing about any compatibility with the 1.6 pistons. What about a source for single pistons? Seeing asd I will more tha likley need a set of 4 plus 1.

Reply #4May 06, 2005, 10:07:31 am

fspGTD

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2005, 10:07:31 am »
Jack, IIRC, the 5-cyl and 6-cyl diesels use the same components as the 1.6l VW IDI Diesel, as VW developed an entire "family" of engines around this design.  So this would mean the pistons and rods would be identical and if you get a price savings by specifying parts for VW application rather than Audi, go for it !as they should cross to the same part numbers anyway)!

Since you are looking at a turbo motor rebuild with the oil squirters, you may be interested to know that my local engine builder makes his own turbo pistons by machining notches in the skirts for clearing the oil squirters.  He has been doing this for a while now and he seems to rebuild a lot of these vw diesels (I often see one fresh rebuilt one ready for a customer to pickup or see a customer dropping one off there whenever I visit), so my guess is that it works.  Whether it would really be cheaper for you depends on if you can find a machinist who can do it for less $ than the price difference between the two kinds of pistons, but you might consider it.

veeman - My understanding of the steel strut is that it's to control thermal expansion (so it is necessary to allows the level of tightness of the piston-wall clearances.)  I refer you to the VW 1.5D and 1.6lTD SAE papers for more info on the VW Diesel's piston design, straight from the VW powertrain engineers.

I haven't gone VW Diesel piston shopping lately, but I know there are more than one brand out there... Mahle (brazilian made) and at least one made-in-germany brand (Kolbenschmidt?).  The Mahle are I think the cheapest, but I can't speak to whether there is a quality difference.
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #5May 06, 2005, 05:29:51 pm

DieselsRcool

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2005, 05:29:51 pm »
Not to mention the injection pump rebuild at $400 minimum. Injectors rebuilt at $200/SET/4. You can see a TD rebuild can reach $1,500 pretty fast.

Is it worth it? I think so. Show me any other car/pu you can buy today that will get 50mpg and cost you less than $3,000 to purchase and rebuild. Personally, I can't spend enough money on my VW TD's. There is still no better cost/mile alternitave that I can find.

Reply #6May 06, 2005, 07:39:31 pm

jackbombay

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2005, 07:39:31 pm »
Thanks Jake  :)

Reply #7May 06, 2005, 11:32:37 pm

janb

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2005, 11:32:37 pm »
so jake... you mentioned knotching the pistons for squirters,  Does that mean he is using NA pistons? (apparently)  NA pistons are very cheap, I thought the TD had a different alloy ?

I always considered my NA's to be pretty cheap to rebuild.  If oil is changed frequently, I have found pistons and walls to be within spec after 300k.  I have knurled the skirts on some NA pistons that were a hair small.  Not ideal for peak performance, but the NA's don't seem to mind.  I'm sure the second rebuild will be ~50% of the 300k, but I often do for less than $300  (+ head work)  My last 1.6 TD w/ 267K was in spec on bore too.  Tho as mentioned for peak performance and longivity a bore would be best.  Since I have so many, I hope it will last.

 :idea: For a 'commuter' I'd be shopping for a used TD or a NEW 1.9 LB, http://www.maesco.com/products/vw_engines/vw_spec/vw_spec.html
before I bought pistons. UNLESS you have a very cherry car, that you plan on keeping.  After 35 accident free years, In the last year I have been hit 3x by cell phone distracted drivers, so I consider my cars pretty expendable.  Fortunately the engines swap around easily.  I have (2) 1.9 IDI's that I put in my 'heavy use rigs', but I cannot get 50 MPG with them  :cry: (44-46)  I just returned from Chehalis after my weekly mow, towing my 'Snowbear' trailer with JD yard tractor behind my 1.9 NA Caddy.  I had thown in 14 scrap Tires (some were 10.00x20's !!) so she was a little heavy, I had to down shift on 3 hills on I-5, but did alot of 70 MPH flats and downhills  :wink:   It usually gets 40-42 towing.  I think there is significant air drag.  My mini van went from 22MPG to 9MPG with a 60 mph head / cross wind in SD last year when Snowbear became an 'econo-hearse'...  Dad died in Bremerton but wanted to be buried in Nebraska !!  I couldn't jam him in the Caddy, as I would have had to 'red-flag' the casket, so...Snowbear came to the rescue  :wink:

I got the NEW 1.9's longblock for $1700ea (price of a rebuild)  Best deal at the moment seems to be $2200 (if you can find them) http://www.overlandparts.com/dealerlist.htm
 
 :arrow: You really need to shop for parts... I assume jackbombay is in the 'right coast' Portland, or he would be shopping at Halsey, (PDX) (1-800-792-0081) VWdieselparts is very expensive, Adirondack (german auto) should be cheaper.  http://www.germanautoparts.com/
These guys seem to be pretty cheap http://www.autohausaz.com/

good luck
The Stealth Rabbit
VW-d's are forever

Reply #8May 06, 2005, 11:56:13 pm

jackbombay

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Rebuild costs on diesels
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2005, 11:56:13 pm »
Quote from: "janb"
I assume jackbombay is in the 'right coast' Portland, or he would be shopping at Halsey, (PDX) (1-800-792-0081)


  I am actually in Portland Or., but I have no time to deal with my TD for a while, I'll look them up when I get going again, thanks.