Author Topic: Pistons & Rods? (Read 11192 times)

Pat Dolan · « **on:** May 22, 2008, 01:51:55 pm »

I am finally home for a few weeks - for the first time in over 9 months. Geez, if we were younger, I could be returning home to a new kid that I didn't even know I had! Finally, I can get out to the shops and get a little further ahead on some of the projects. #1 priority (after maintenance) is to start the ALH my buddy blew up last year before I had a chance to get home and sort out the new bits and pieces. Melted some pistons, so it's a start from scratch deal now.

We will be going bigger turbo and injectors (have 11mm pump, FMIC, etc.) but I am afraid we need a lot more piston and con rod to live up where this might end up going. Therefore, I need so of the wisdom and experience of those who have gone before:

I managed to find a set of PD150 0.50mm o/s slugs, but I really don't know if those are the bees knees, or what I should be paying for them. Also, I would like to ceramic coat the crowns, and wonder who's good at that, how to contact and what to pay. I don't EVER want to melt another set. Also, are the PD 150 pins same dimension as ALH (I know they are heavier)?

For rods, I hope we will see something over 200 HP, 300++ torque, which leaves me to suspect the stock rods just won't do. I have seen some bent quite severely from similar mods. How about the PD 150 rods? How far will they go? Who sells them? How much dinero? Any other good rod choices out there?

I will go all ARP in the mains, rods and heads, following the other thread here to find the eventual solution to fasteners.

jtanguay · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2008, 04:22:02 pm »

PD150 pistons are pretty sweet. if you look underneath they have a little 'route' for the oil to circulate inside the piston. this cools it even better than just spraying on the underside.

MJF · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2008, 11:04:24 pm »

http://www.rosten-performance.com/pages/h_beam_rods.html#tdi_engines

Pat Dolan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2008, 12:51:17 am »

mjf

A second choice, fantastic. Thanks

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2008, 04:21:37 am »

Nice connections on those rods! Good prices for them as well.
PD pistons you'll have to look into. Without digging and going into the books looking at measurements, etc. I believe in order to use the PD pistons in say an ALH block (and rods). You'd def. need to have aftermarket rods sized appropriately (nice to see them available). Or...use them in conjuction with using the PD crank as well in the ALH block as I believe the BIG end of the rod is different than the ALH's. Thats just off the top of my head. Though...they are available which is really nice.

As for coatings. When I had my crowns and skirts done on the motor for the mTDI mk1, I used SwainTech Coatings
http://www.swaintech.com/

They are sort of pioneers in the business, have great customer service, quality and prices IMHO. I believe I paid just a bit over 160.00 in all total for have the crowns coated in their TBC coating and the skirts done with their PC-9 anti seize compound.
I highly recommend them for any of your coating needs and it is cheap insurance. I've given thought to having the brand new pistons that I got for the b3 mTDI conversion coated...but don't know if I'll be able to do it this year on the budget...
Great stuff though...

Joe

Pat Dolan · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2008, 07:07:59 am »

Joe:

You're just biased because Swain is in NY.

Seriously, though, thanks for the link. They have been around quite a while (I was in the coating business when they first started, but didn't know of them).

As for rod journal sizes: anyone have a PD Bentley handy for rod journal diameters?

Pat

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2008, 07:56:07 pm »

LOL... it sounds like I'm tending to be biased in a lot of way lately these days.

But really...they are pioneers and they are good at what they do. The NY benefit is just an added perk. There is an excellent article out there proving how great their TBC coating really is....great read.

If I find it...i'll connect there here..though, I think it is right on their site.

Joe

Pat Dolan · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2008, 08:43:13 pm »

Joe:

I will be drop-shipping the PD 150 slugs to them next week - you biased bugger. Will be using the "gold" coating, though. No skirt work because the TDI pistons are already coated. Not going to do cyl head (at least not at this stage).

Yeah, I do remember running into some pics of some guys somewhere in the East doing some engine coatings, so we just whipped up some bits and did similar stuff ourselves. Crazy crap like sintered bronze piston skirts, ceramic piston crowns, and so on. I think we only did on 2 strokes. It was handy to have plasma torch, drop torch, spray and fuse torch, all kinds of powders and a big machine shop to play in.

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2008, 04:57:27 am »

Pat,

I agree...the skirts do not need to be done if the coatings are still intact on them. I have noticed with TDI pistons, that the skirt coatings really start to fade after 150k it seems. The ALH pistons that I used in the mk1's mTDI build had quite a bit of coating that seemed to be "fading". So, I opted for the lesser of two evils and had both skirts and crowns done.

re: Gold coating. Thats cool...its good stuff. In talking to the service rep, we determined it would be a bit of overkill because of how much more efficient diesel motors are and their tendencies towards lower EGT and internal temperatures. etc. The Gold coating was specifically designed for higher performance, gas engines that were turbocharged/supercharged, etc. etc. (which do run hotter).

Don't know if you've seen it yet...but here is a diesel specific article that SwainTech did here...
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10300
They do ALOT of diesel pistons you'll find!

So...if you want to save a bit of money, go with the normal TBC coating...its cheaper and will more than cover your pistons with what you need in this particular diesel application. I'd def. go with the gold coatings if I did another gas motor someday! Good stuff!

Joe

lbreton · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2008, 06:00:34 pm »

Pat,

I have read in a few different places that the piston pin diameter on the PD's is bigger than on the AHU/ALH. I can not speak first hand on it though. I did have an ALH in my shop a few months ago, sitting beside my BHW (which is a PD130/150 with the 2.0 pistons). The PD rods are heftier. I did not measure the diameter of my BHW journals, but the rod is almost 1/8" wider at the crank journal than the ALH. The PD rods will certainly take higher boost levels, if you want to stick with factory rods.

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2008, 08:32:30 pm »

The pin is def. bigger as well as the big end too. I can't confirm actually sizing off the top of my head...and its not to say things couldn't be rebushed....but the big end would be the BIG consideration...

Joe

lbreton · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2008, 09:01:31 pm »

Forgot to clarify myself. You will need a PD crank with the PD rods. Or as Joe mentioned custom pins/rods to match the psitons up with the ALH crank. I have come across a hand full of cranks and rods from the BHW, but they a a dumb ass sprocket on it for driving the balance shafts at 2X crank speed..you would need to machine it off and put on a standard oil pump driver sprocket. kinda messy.

lbreton · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2008, 05:19:02 am »

dry film coating -

http://www.brycoat.com/index.html

no personal experiance with them, but they look pretty high end.

Pat Dolan · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2008, 05:16:56 pm »

For those who might be silly enought to car about these things (you know who you are):

Charlie's (kermatdi) H-Beam rods are available in ALH fit to accomodate PD 150 pistons for $800. I think they can also supply the pistons (I found them at Illinois Dyno for I think $800 as well). As long as kerma can send them out to Swaintech, I guess I will go there (not like I haven't been there a few times before).

Now, if only the ARP guys can get their shyte together I can get some head studs.

Pat

RabbitGTDguy · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2008, 05:37:32 pm »

Pat...

Why not get some racewares? On the subject of quality...much nicer quality product and pretty readily available. ARP's deal has been interesting with TDI studs in the last few years.

On Charlies H-beams...they are indeed nice and if I ever pull the motor in the Mk1, I'd def. look at installing a set. No need at the moment though...and not that badly priced when you consider what you are getting. Much better served in a PD motor I think though...that is going to need them much quicker than our VE based motors are in considering potential power outputs/torque differences between VE based motors and PD *and new CR* motors in the future.

Joe