Author Topic: how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?  (Read 5523 times)

Reply #15May 25, 2008, 12:38:49 pm

xud9te

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2008, 12:38:49 pm »
Juat a revision to the above:  I dont think the AC pulley diferent on your engine is it?  Just a longer belt.  Use the ac mount holes in the block/bracket whatever to make a custom sc mount.

Also I would put the bypass valve before the IC to increase efficiency.

Reply #16May 25, 2008, 05:20:08 pm

oldskool rich

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2008, 05:20:08 pm »
thats the set up i was gona do although my T3 is scrap but ive just got my hands on a big ass turbo off a toyota supera, probly quite lagy will probly run that with the M45. do you think that set up would be better than vnt?

if so ill do it, if not ill be vnt hunting for a while :roll:
i just want a reliable daily that can kick ass on the quater mile :lol:
not asking much realy


probly not the right place to ask but wud the M112 be better suited for a petrol 5pot audi S1 engine?
gona start building one next year, not sure wheather to keep SC or flog it off


f6squared I.D.S.T

Reply #17May 26, 2008, 05:29:51 am

xud9te

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 05:29:51 am »
If the 5 pot is the 2.2 and you want around 22 psi boost then it should be ok.  You will need to use a big bypass valve on the petrol engine though, especially with such a large charger.  Would make one hell of an engine if it was do-able though!!

If you look at the efficiency map of the turbo and find the start boost point on the 1.6, then drop it down by about 1/3 of max rpm you should get a rough idea of when it will start to boost in compound.  If it is the standard supra turbo it should be ok, but be careful it is not a ceramic blade model as they cannot take more than 1 bar across them.

I reckon a properly sized compound system will be better then the VNT.  You will have NO lag, and no surge to worry about on the little 1.6.  Getting it working perfectly smooth for a daily would be more difficult than installing the VNT on its own though.

There are hundreds of VNT's!!  Search on ebay.de for turbolader.  The VNT garrett ones with the curved comp outlet are usually GT20xx.  Just search the part number on the tag anyway.  A GT17 may be better for the 1.6 though, like from the PD150/130 and newer 2.0 engines.

GT20
http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-VW-2-5-TDI-Turbolader-059-145-701-F_W0QQitemZ320255480717QQihZ011QQcategoryZ61310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/TURBOLADER-AUDI-A6-AUDI-A4-VW-PASSAT-2-5-TDI-155-180PS_W0QQitemZ270239461010QQihZ017QQcategoryZ61305QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/GARRETT-TURBOLADER-AUDI-VW-TDI-40-TKM_W0QQitemZ180246726254QQihZ008QQcategoryZ61310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbolader-Audi-A6-2-5-Tdi-von-Garrett_W0QQitemZ280228302479QQihZ018QQcategoryZ61305QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

GT17
http://cgi.ebay.de/NEU-Turbolader-VW-AUDI-1-9-2-0Liter-038145702G-J_W0QQitemZ150248799679QQihZ005QQcategoryZ61310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbolader-Audi-VW-130-PS-Passat-1-9-TDI-2-0-pumpe-Duese_W0QQitemZ350063117984QQihZ022QQcategoryZ61310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Reply #18May 26, 2008, 05:01:21 pm

oldskool rich

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2008, 05:01:21 pm »
wow thanx very much, thats extreamly helpfull you realy know your stuff. i had already checked german ebay but didnt realy know what i was looking for. im doing a tdi project on the side and i need one of these big time.

i think im gona go for it with the super turbo plan, and then i can race the vnt tdi and see what is better.

btw its a 1.9 aaz but im guessing that wont make a differnce.


also why must i keep to around 22psi on the s1 engine?, yes its the 2.2. a reliable source tells me that these engines are factory built to withstand 1000bhp and the group B rally cars from back in the day didnt hav modified internals just tuned up to ***. any ideas on how much boost i could squeeze into one of these? also what do you meen by "bypass valve"?

sorry if i sound stupid, im still learning :oops:


f6squared I.D.S.T

Reply #19May 26, 2008, 08:06:17 pm

xud9te

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2008, 08:06:17 pm »
itchy trigger finger!!

Reply #20May 26, 2008, 08:06:46 pm

xud9te

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2008, 08:06:46 pm »
Its not a limit, the 22psi, just a guesstimate of a good number to run the SC at.  It would support more boost if you needed it to!  8)  With some seriously good intercooling, you might squeeze 30psi out of it on the 2.2 usefully.

Its pretty easy working out how to size an SC for an engine really.  To get a ballpark figure just find how much air your engine is needing at a certain rpm:

(engine volume x rpm x volumetric effciency)/2

then the boost in psi you want is:

{[(SC displacement x drive ratio x rpm) / engine airflow] - 1 } x 14.7

Just change the drive ratio until you get the boost you want.  If you needed say 1.5 drive ratio, your SC pulley should be 2/3rd size of the crank pulley.  

The method above does not take into account SC efficiency (how much it heats the air) or heating due to compression of the air, but if you have a good intercooler (80% eff) you are still in the ballpark for sizing and drive ratio as long as you are running the SC in the right airflow range.  You can check if you are by looking at the SC map like this one for the newer versions of the m112:

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_128487.gif

One other way to check simply if you have the right SC is to see what it's max rpm is at the engine max rpm.  Most wont withstand 14000 rpm (especially not the big ones), and if its not getting to 10000rpm its a bit oversized.

Most SC applications have an drive ratio of around 1.5, some have less but then don't have a great bottom end.  Because the range of the usable boost on any SC engine needs to be the same as engine rpm range, they run right up to the inefficient high rpm's.  This is when a turbo is ALOT better.  Some engines like big V8's dont really need to much of a hand at the bottom end and can have low drive ratios nearer to 1, but its a waste of power driving the SC.


The bypass valve for the SC is so that the air is bypassed around the SC when you don't want it i.e. at low throttle openings.   In a petrol car that is very important to avoid running lean.  On a diesel you can worry less about it but you should really still have something in place.  Alot dont though.  It's because the SC is just a positive displacement pump and always puts out the same pressure ratio, not like a turbo which is load dependant (only spools up when you put your foot down).  As diesels always run lean and dont have a throttle, you can just about get away with not having a valve for bypass if the boost controlling valve is set up correctly.

Anyway, a simple turbo into SC with big intercooler setup and external wastegate valve to control boost would make one quick 1.9 aaz!!  It would be quick off the line and really torquey.  It might be a bit *** to drive round town but good on the strip!!

Reply #21May 27, 2008, 05:41:58 pm

oldskool rich

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how does an LDA work if you have a supercharger?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2008, 05:41:58 pm »
thanx, sum of that maths went over my head, but ill work it out.

gona give this a go, i aready had trouble not spinning in the first couple of gears just with my fuel mods and T3.

ive nearly got my mk5 6speed box running, this engine should be perfect.

cant wait 8)


f6squared I.D.S.T