has 1.6tdi been done?

[gigaz2]

see, you can be constructive
I applaud you (no really, i do) one of the best posts in this thread!

I could ask my mechanic to strip the block and send me a piston and rod, but he is already giving them to me. I can't push it, as soon as I can I will cc them, and take all the measurements necessary.

the 1.2 pistons would almost certainly work, but someone would have to source them cheap, I believe the Renault option was only considered because of the price and availability.
its almost easier to find a mk1 GTI than a 3l Lupo or A2

[RabbitGTDguy]

I have been constructive either way...and always have been on this forum. There is a bit of information regarding it. As for pushing your mechanic...i def. wouldn't either, having the ability to get them for what they are (FREE) is something good... I def. wouldn't rush. You'll have them where others won't. Sort of a golden egg for a project like this and I think you'll see it even more so when you get the pistons and rods in hand.
LOL...now...no one mentioned that getting them would be easy! Your def. lucky there! I def. wouldn't want any junk chinese knock offs of them either. I'm of the do it once....do it right philosophy and just don't sway there. You get what you pay for.

On that...Prothe...

My posts have been constructively and realistically objective and negative towards his approach, ideas and project given what information he has gathered for this "cobbled" project on his end. I'm sure he will take this information for his benefit (now that it is provided) in sourcing more parts to make his project and capitalization on it all the more of a reality.

well, I need not say much more. I have more information regarding this project, ideas for you, etc. but I will not post them because of the above fact. Feel free to email and I'd be glad to share...
That is just a piece of things and honestly its being made alot harder than it really is (other than looking in the right places).

Additionally...read this...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14291

Joe

[jtanguay]

i like Prothe's idea...  reminds me a lot about jimfoo's 1.9 converted into a 1.9TDI.  there were quite a few skeptics who thought it couldn't be done... and look what he did  :wink: i think that the end result will be great, and that we should all chip in ideas to get this thing rolling.  obviously Prothe isn't really in this for the big bucks... look at his site?  

Joe thanks for posting some constructive ideas/opinions.  i like that you brought up the issue of valve relief, the 'squish', cr, etc.  all good things to know.

on the note of the chinese knock offs; who would realistically want to spend over $3000 on oem stuff (not including the pump  :shock: ) when they could simply pay $1000 to their otherwise 'spent' 1.6 engine to turn it into a lean mean mpg+power machine?

when i look at how much i spent for my 1.9TDI rebuild (not even including pistons as i got lucky they were still in spec) it was around $1200 (give or take... those glyco bearings & geotz rings are $$$+ total seal  :oops:) minus the turbo & pump, and the initial $1200 to buy the longblock itself.   it kind of makes me sick when i could have bought a gently used PD longblock, fully loaded for around that price.  WITH AN ECU!!!!!!!!!  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

now thankfully i make decent wage and i can afford the 'good stuff' but for those who can't, i must applaud Prothe for being able to offer a cheaper alternative for the "people's car" made for the people.  i'm sure that people know what they're getting into when they buy his stuff.  i think anyone who remembers FAG parts (pun or not its funny to me  :lol:) can remember the saying "you get what you pay for."

and for the reliability of chinese products... they might have a bad reputation, but look at GM.  they're probably WORSE!  :lol: a lady at my work just had to replace the windshield wiper motor on her 2005 chevy truck.  what a joke. $300 to replace it.  i would personally buy a chinese knockoff of that motor ANYDAY!

lets get back to information exchange, shall we?  

[RabbitGTDguy]

I think we are exchanging information and honestly others feed off of it too. Also, it wasn't originally a "Prothe" idea anyways. Its been kicked around several times in several different places. His ideas are significantly off other than knowing that he'd like to have a "1.6 TDI" build kit to sell.
tell me what of his ideas have shown clarity and a good amount of realistic information...

The essentials that I "brought up" are key consideration in any engine build, especially one that is "non stock" or seriously modified beyond the stock unit. They are key characteristics that effect the dynamics of how the engine will run and operate on a whole...

To each his own (note to self...make a record of this statement so I don't have to retype it) but if you are comfortable in supporting those dirt cheap prices, the poor souls behind producing them and that in the name of saving bucks for youself. Ok. Great. However, do it once and do it right. I may have spend a little more on "OEM" products, but I know where it came from, know what is inside my motor and know what I have built and therefore consider it a solid, quality and well thought out build.
I also think your idea of $3000 in OEM parts is quite off. I can tell you that I used all OEM parts in my motor...of Excellent or Best quality and don't have that into it.
Re: pumps...that is all the choice of the builder. It can be done and be done well by the DIY'er so the choice between having them built by Giles or the similar is that of the person behind the motor. I'd feel good about Giles regarding his products, as he has shown us what he has done (though not in complete detail) and the intensive testing and adjustment that they go through (remember the YouTube video). I'm going to bet he doesn't use chinese seals in his pumps though...nor hydraulic heads, etc. etc.
I'm not rich, nor well off but saved and spent the money on good...quality stuff. That is part of doing it once and doing it right. But alas...I'm beating a dead horse...

Joe

[RabbitGTDguy]

blah blah blah...

really...at this point now your saying you have  a 1.6 motor and have some 1.6 TDI pistons and that you "think" the CR is around 23:1 with these? Interesting...

Looks like you need to take another look. If you have stock 1.6 IDI pistons and a stock 1.6 block....sure...your going to have a CR of that...

TDI pistons will be FAR different...hate to break it to you. You might want to read about what a compression ratio isn't and where the combustion chamber exists on a DI motor and how you would go about calculating that *even though I've mentioned it now several times* "how"...

Maybe I need bigger font? Clear instructions...
Package...stamp...sell...

WOW...

And prothe....why don't you speak directly to me instead of around me...lol.

Just another example.

I'll glady speak to anyone on the specs , etc. and share the ideas I have as I stated above. I have the specs for the 1.2 pistons, rods, etc. from my old notes back before I did the first mTDI build in the Mk1.  PM me...I'm not posting them for this clown, it may take me a few days to provide them...but they are here. "I've spent hundreds of hours" researching them...
Oye...

Joe

[RabbitGTDguy]

I think thats a good idea... and as part of a "measurement" for the CR, to get it accurately...you'd have to do some CC'ing to pull the correct measurement. Its not just as easy as a "bore and stroke" measurement as the calculators have it out there. Oye.
Good luck on the observations...maybe the motor will measure itself or you'll get epihanies while your "observing" (what...i'm not quite sure) and things will just start coming together. That'd be excellent.

In regards to "what does this mean", I think if you read into what I said...you'll figure out what I mean

Def not a personal arguement, I have no need to argue with you...but I will comment on comments that misdirect and/or mislead others. Gladly..
Additionally, you skate and manipulate quite well...I'm more than happy to point that out too.
Think it just goes to show that just about anyone can sell parts...

Ah...but anyways...for those others. I'll be digging through some of my old data I had written down a long time ago and had found info on the 1.2L engine somewhere. I'll gladly provide that for you through if the need exists. I think, if I remember correctly (with the exception of the tapered rods) you'll find the possibilities of it quite impressive.
Additionally, since one of you already has a line on the 1.2L pistons/rods. You'll be that much further ahead and as far as this project goes you may hold the "holy grail" to getting it going....the correct way.

Joe

[Tintin]

You plan to get running a 1.6 TDI and you do not know what is a compression ratio.....   good luck.

Like you say, around 19 is good for the test and probably the best value for well working, but It's not a measurement in Bar, It's a ratio of your cylinder volume.

You need to make some measurement and calculation to find it on your experimental motor, nobody here can tell you what is your C/R, you have to find it, It's not an easy task.

[RabbitGTDguy]

Tintin, you're right, compression is a ratio.  What I am planning on doing is to install the pistons and attempt to test the compression of the engine.  This will give me a rough estimate of the compression ratio.  My prediction is about 20:1 right now (without machining the pistons).  This means I am figuring that the psi I measure should be more than the 1.9 TDI, but less than the 1.6 IDI numbers.

After I have machined the pistons to my liking, then I'll measure the actual cylinder volumes to get a compression ratio.  

Has anyone here measured cylinder volume before?

Wow...

We need a sticky note program to post into this thread for extremely dumb comments or such observations. For example... Martin, I don't think he quite "gets" what your asking. LOL. However...he did express that compression ratio is a "ratio". Good thing we have that nailed down.

Prothe... volume is an elementary measurement....here, I'll help you out...
http://msnucleus.org/membership/html/k-6/as/scimath/3/assm3_5a.html
that would be good practice...

Otherwise...
Volume of a cylinder = Pi * R^2 * H, where

Pi = 355/113

R = radius of the base circle, and

H = height of the cylinder

and for Compression Ratio...



Among other things as well you need...

To accurately calculate compression ratio, you must know several things:
1. Bore measurement
2. Stroke of the cylinder
3.  Volume of combustion chamber (in the pistons on a DI motor, including valve depressions) This is where that "CC'ing" comes in that I was talking about...
4. The compression height of the piston
5. The dome/dish volume of the piston (gasser) on DI's, combustion chamber is in piston... no dome/dish measurement
6. The piston-to-deck clearance (protrusion)
7. The thickness of the headgasket
8. The bore of the headgasket

All this and you want to market what you slap together and have to ask the questions to figure out? Wait...it'll actually be on someone else's acct. Gotcha...

Oh....umm...ah...yes, got it.

Oye vey...guessing always works too i suppose.

Joe

[jtanguay]

the previous post didn't come off as arrogant  :roll:

we know you don't like the guy but jeez keep it technical!

Prothe: the best ratio is probably somewhere around 18.5-19:1

the higher the injection pressure, the lower the compression ratio.  the engine will probably run with 15:1, but have crappy cold starting.  the high CR is only for cold starting.

it all depends on which injectors you can supply with your conversion package.  early TDI's had somewhere around 180 bar and later TDI's had around 220 bar.  the CR difference between the two isn't much, but it makes a difference.

some people on this forum think that you will slap together a frankenstein motor with half tdi parts and half 1.6 parts and sell it without doing some experimentation...  obviously you won't sell it if it won't work right.

the way i see it, a 1.9TDI 1Z head will fit onto a 1.6 hydraulic block WITHOUT modification.  1.2L pistons will fit into a 1.6 hydraulic or even mech block WITHOUT modification.  the only thing left is to see if the 1.6 rods will fit the 1.2 pistons, and if the 1.6 rods have the right stroke, and guess what? it does have the right stroke.

i will bet you that if you can get the pistons to fit with the 1.6 rods, that this engine will work (obviously with a complete 1Z/AHU head)

[RabbitGTDguy]

I don't think arrogant is the right word. I'd say my post was more...err...
Well...def. truthful and its not a matter of me liking/not liking Prothe as its not personal. HOWEVER on the technical side of things, I think the more this is discussed, the more you see true character. He might be a great guy to talk too...its def. not personal.

Oh...I did keep it technical as well (jtanguay...did you notice my explanations on CR?). If he is going to attempt a calculation I hope that it is done correctly and you might as well start with a refreshing on calculating volume if you have to ask the question "has anyone calculated cylinder volume before".


Joe

[jtanguay]

I don't think arrogant is the right word. I'd say my post was more...err...
Well...def. truthful and its not a matter of me liking/not liking Prothe as its not personal. HOWEVER on the technical side of things, I think the more this is discussed, the more you see true character. He might be a great guy to talk too...its def. not personal.

Oh...I did keep it technical as well (jtanguay...did you notice my explanations on CR?). If he is going to attempt a calculation I hope that it is done correctly and you might as well start with a refreshing on calculating volume if you have to ask the question "has anyone calculated cylinder volume before".


Joe

i meant keep it technical as in stop 'flaming' him.  its getting annoying, dude.

[RabbitGTDguy]

Dude....if it was flaming him the mods would have said something and changed the post if they felt that way. I believe it was setting the record state on a pretty important aspect of engine building...and it is accurate...
The manner in which I state it is reflective of Prothe's questionable skill. I had to make it legible for his understanding. If you want to read into it that far...that is your perogative...

Thanks for your comments though.

Joe

[Gearhead]

Geez, Joe.  

Back off a little, man.  The guy is working on a project.  He asks questions and has sources for parts.  As of this moment, he's not trying to sell an untested product.  If he gets it together, tested it, and it works, he can sell it.  He has already invested money into this project.  That's more than I have done.  He deserves financial reward for his investment if the project works and meets a need in the marketplace.  If I decide to buy from him, I KNOW that I'm buying an experimental project with parts from God knows where.  Some ppl have had bad luck with Pete's parts.  Some have had good luck.  There are 3 sides to every story.  I'm HOPING that he will stand behind his product when I purchase, but caveat emptor, right?  

All I'm saying is, you don't like the guy, or don't like what he stands for, or don't like what he sells, or don't like his prices, or don't like his lack of knowledge, or something.  He is experimenting on his dime at the moment.  He is asking questions and learning as he goes.  Please let it rest.  We get it.  I respect your knowledge and appreciate your input, but it is getting to the point that I'm skipping your posts because they are becoming redundant in theme.  I want you to know, that I haven't purchased anything form Pete, but I probably will at some point in the future.  My Cabrio HP project will probably get parts form MikeW.  My '82 daily beater will probably get parts form Pete.  I will have a side by side comparison that I will fund, someday.  It will not be fair as the Cab will be built to put out substantially more power.  Hence the reason of using the highest quality parts from known origin.  

Pete,

Good luck with your endeavors.  If the 1.6TDI thing works out, I will probably give it a go in my daily.

Putting my flame suit on,
Don.

[RabbitGTDguy]

Don,

Good, Great...Excellent for you. Others still deserve to be informed about anything misleading in the thread. Also, if you skip the posts that I have posted about (several), you'll miss some important information regarding important considerations that would/will help in this "endeavour". That is your choice.

Please do not put words in my mouth, accuse me of not liking the guy and making this personal (as I have outlined evidently in one of the posts you missed); as that is not my intention nor my direction. If you look through the posts, there is validity, substance and standing in each one and only maybe the final "product" of the post goes back to the reoccuring theme that would question "Pete" as a vendor. He might/maybe a great guy...fine... it is your post and ones like it that start to turn this thread re: this project  towards a "personal" direction. Not my individual postings.
Please do tell me that I didn't provide a significant amount of information, evening providing examples re: the 1.2 TDI head, orientation, which pistons would be needed. I also have the further information regarding rods that i have emailed to a few that have inquired regarding them. Also...tell me that my posts regarding the need to "Pete" to properly "CC" his pistons and then do calculations to accurately predict is compression ratio.
Please...
Additionally, in asking for what he things the "optimal" ratio would be... how can anyone know that hasn't developed this before? How can they answer. Does this CR need to be based upon performance aspects (as there is a VWMS and other optimum there) or for "all around" driving conditions (including cold weather starts....as already mentioned by other members).  You guys who are trying to drum up a "personal" attack on my part including "Pete" himself (who has accused me) seem like little girls trying to start something at a school. Come on...

The information is all right there.

Re: standing behind product...you might want to check out a few of the testimonials that are starting to pop up, even in our own thread on it in the General section.

Don't make it personal on my part...I'm providing the information for others and it is reliable, accurate information at that. I could give two *$)# about him to be honest. However, this is a forum, for DIYers and the like, and I'm entitled to my thoughts. If you want to skip them...go ahead!

Have a good one.

Joe

[gigaz2]

I've been waiting for someone who know's the unusual features of the 1.9 TDI head to comment on why the VW 1.2 3-cylinder TDI pistons will not work for the 1.6 IDI to SDI conversion, even though the bore and stroke are the same, and the compression ratio is already where it should be.

that was addressed before.

but do you already have a franken engine? it looks that way.

waiting for the pictures to check that out