has 1.6tdi been done?

[itzdshtz]

I agree, don't feel flamed, were just throwing ideas around.

 What I will do for my project with the 5 cylinder:
I will sleeve the block with 5 sleeves because one of my blocks is now at max bore.( just ordered sleeves from Prothe)

Use Renault pistons, flycut valve cutouts on top of pistons, probably machine out the bowl in the piston a bit, (the VW stroke is longer than the Renault so the compession ratio is too high)
 
Make new bushings for the conrods because the Renault pins are 25mm instead of 24mm.

Build a mechanical TDI pump, I have welded a collar to the pump housing and pressed a new bushing in it so that it will accept a 20mm shaft and bigger seal.(an AAZ pumpbody will not work because it turns the wrong way)

Use a 5 cyl TDI head that I bought on Ebay DE

Use a bigger VNT turbo with mechanical control.

Well that will keep me busy for a while!

        Herman

[gigaz2]

Use a 5 cyl TDI head that I bought on Ebay DE

        Herman

so its you who has been gobling up the sweet 5cyl heads on ebay

I was looking for a complete one, mine doesn't have valves, but I'll try to use  gasser valves I got from a AAR head

I didn't like to hear about the conrod difference
but as I'll take two blocks apart, I can measure all the dimensions

[itzdshtz]

Sorry, I bought 2 of them lately but that's it for now, they are coming up regularly now for reasonable prices.
    Herman

[gigaz2]

well, I went to etka to look for the part number and cost of the 1Z valve cover and found something interesting:

028103469L   --1Z AND AAZ
028103469E   --1Z

so.. a AAZ valve cover can be used on the 1Z head
a JR valvecover can be used on the AAZ provided one drills and taps the head for the studs.
therefore, the JR valve cover can be used on the 1Z head if you drill and tap for the studs

am I assuming too much?

[gigaz2]

I believe jimfoo used all the parts of his AAZ head on the 1Z.
the valves are the only difference, AAZ ones are 2mm shorter, but as I could read, it works.

I could measure the compression ratio, but my parts are in Lisbon, and I'm not

so its up to you Prothe

[RabbitGTDguy]

The aaz cover does not fit a 1z head...sorry. Just because the P/N crosses, doesn't mean its right. It uses the same hold down grommets, hardware etc. but the front of the cover is distinctly different. The 1z/AHU valve cover is not straight in the front like the aaz unit. Guess you could try and fit it on there...but then prothe is like fitting your IDI head to a TDI...guess you could well.
Cheers. Flame on...

Kudos to those planning out this project the right way. I hate to say it but your feeding Prothe all the info he needs to make money off of what you have already at least thought about (beyond a half-A$$d) idea....interesting how the tone has changed...however, I'll be impressed to see one of those (with the correct idea in the first place) produce one of the motors and see what it behaves like. The CR is easy to figure out if you know the bore/stroke of what you are working with...the final test of it though would be you'd need to CC the pistons that you guys would be using and the head to figure it out pricisely. The calculation would give you an excellent idea of "where" you are at. Anyone who builds engines the right way will calculate the compression ratio (and achieve it the correct way as well...ever think about those gassers stacking there head gaskets, etc)....squish volume is VERY important...
Anyways, if get the CC measurements of your pistons you'd be using *CC the combustion chamber filled to the valve impressions, then the head with the valves sitting in it...glow plug area will be nominal in calc as well as injector protrution....but...if you wanted to, it could be figured* and you'll find your answer.

Joe

[itzdshtz]

Here is an easy to use compression ratio calculator:

http://golenengineservice.com/calc/calccr.htm

   Herman

[jtanguay]

Bore/Stroke on the 1.4TDI 79.50 mm x 95.5 mm
Bore/Stroke on the 1.2TDI 76.50 mm × 86.40mm
Bore/Stroke on the 1.6TD  76.50 mm × 86.40 mm

same bore/stroke as the 1.6TD.  and since the 'post' combustion chamber is in the piston itself, using 1.2 pistons *should* yield the proper compression ratio.  i think if prothe can get a complete TDI head including injectors for cheap, this might be an interesting upgrade...

[itzdshtz]

I looked into getting some 1.2TDI pistons from an Audi A2 or VW Lupo, the best price I could get was 155 Euro's per piston ( $250.00 US)

It will not fit staight out of the box either, they use a tapered conrod and the piston pin is larger also.

So the inside of the piston still needs to be machined too unless you use the 1.2tdi conrods.

It would be nice to get a used 1.2TDI piston so that you can compare the combustion chamber with Prothe's piston.

    Herman

[gigaz2]

RabbitGTDguy:

first of all thanks for the info on the valve cover.

half baked or half a$$d (whatever that is) would be to try to calculate the CR for a set of pistons that we don't know, with a conrod pin that possibly won't fit without machining...
thats why nobody said anything about that yet. its got to be measured.

have I put ANY information here that wasn't already here?
even the Renault pistons.. I had a hunch, but it was Prothe who told us what he was using.

I am NOT advertising, supporting or even buying things from Prothe. (because of custom duties, or else I would)
Prothe has a setup on his shop. I have one 300Km away.
can YOU measure the CR? I can, but not this month..

I don't see anybody flaming Giles because he does't say what he is doing to the pumps... and I bet he has a truckload of them from experimenting over the years.

[RabbitGTDguy]

First off...your welcome...

Second....wasn't accussing you of doing things half "     ", that was directed at Prothe's "poor man approach" to doing something that he obviously didn't think about much (re: IDI head to TDI ? Huh? ok....)

and I believe it was mentioned above that someone had found a set of pistons that would fit in the 1.6 block ....then the question of CR came up. Well, if they WILL fit the block then the CR calculation isn't too particularly hard to do as long as you have a few measurements...or if you know overall diameter and can get the CC information (which can often be had) then you can do it all without even having the piston in your hand.  if you read, thats what I was pointing out. LOL... Anyways...

Sheez... better read it through a bit more and its honestly pointless to try and defend him on the forum here for most of us. I'm one of many and just choose to say than not say it.

Eh...To each his own.


Joe

[gigaz2]

yeah, idi head to tdi was way far fetched..

[RabbitGTDguy]

It appears you didn't think about a lot of things.

Calculating the CC of a DI piston that would fit your "1.6" motor would be a very important thing to do. If you use a set of pistons that will require you to open up the bore of the block a bit...you'll change compression ratio, additionally, from there....the combustion chamber of the pistons, etc. will be important as well to make sure your in the ballpark for your CR to make sure the damn thing will run since there is no real baseline to work with since there is no "1.6TDI" out there on the market. Then, you have squish volume to consider and the extra area provide by whichever thickness of head gasket you use as well. What about deck height and protrusion of pistons over the block? You may...may not have to machine whatever pistons you end up with.  I'd say the measurement is pretty important.
So...care to explain why you think its unimportant?

 Also...how hard would it be to CC a "flat top piston" vs. a DI piston? Umm...pretty easy considering that both use the same method of measurement and pretty important considering the project that you want to attempt. Oh...and yes, a flat piston would be easy to calculate...as a matter of fact, you wouldn't have much of anything and when you talk about an insignifcant calculate...that would be one...


LOL...this is hilarious...I'm sure customers will love that.
Do you know the reasoning of the 23:1 CR of a IDI VW engine vs. the 19.5:1 TDI motor? Then the significance of getting down to say 18.5:1? Or are just just doing it based of your general reading of other peoples stuff? Errr....something doesn't make sense here.

I actually don't out source for my bits...thanks for the piece of info there. All my work is done working on my own and working closely with a few other members here on the forum. My project was thought out and feasible from a multitude of different areas...my pump is a homebrew, in a second variation thanks to closely working with other forum members, etc. To each his own, as I have said...

You however, as a vendor have a great obligation to stand behind whatever you end up building in the end and when you can't provide information on your product...hmm...
I'll be glad to watch your train wreck  of a project occur. Yes, the purpose of the forum... and I have no real interest at the moment in building anything similar to this for a number of reasons. Already have enough projects in front of me, and viable, well though through ones at that. However, interesting that a vendor would think some of the obsurd ideas you had in the first place would work and I'll gladly do what I can do to be the other side of this poorly thought out project on your part so that others wouldn't fall victim to some of the crap and ill thought out ideas you have. Wow.

I think MacGyver with homemade ARC welder and a nickel could probably put together a better thought out project than you could. LOL...

Enjoy...

Joe

[gigaz2]

rabitgtdguy: to put it simple enough for you to understand:

if some OEM pistons don't work the 1.6tdi isn't going nowhere.

thats why nobody here has started to calculate a thing.. we don't have nothing to start with.

if the proposed pistons are too tall so they can´t be machined they won't be used.

do you have a better approach? I would love to hear it.

on my part I would like to have a piston catalog with all the specs, that way we would just choose the right one, instead of having to improvise like this.

[RabbitGTDguy]

My argument is for the importance of needing to calculate that in your considerations. That way you know "what" you are looking for. If I dig back in my thread on my mTDI build into the mk1 (as I don't have it memorized at the moment...was a while ago), I have the CC measurements for the stock TDI pistons. Also, between the 1.4, 1.9, etc. TDI's I do not believe that the combustion chamber size within the piston itself changed.

For instance...

1.2L TDI
bore 76.5mm  ×  stroke 86.4 mm
CR= 19.5:1

and your 1.6 TD IDI is...
bore 76.5mm x stroke 86.4mm
CR=23.5:1

the 1.4 TDI (I believe as discussed moves out of an acceptable range bore wise of course...

So, at the moment...the 1.2 pistons are some of the best to work with idea wise and a probable solution. Given the fact that the compression ratio of the 1.2 is in line with the 1.9 TDI, you may not have alot of work to do CR wise, but the calc would be good to have if someone had some 1.2 pistons and the deck height and piston protrusion between the IDI block and the TDI block would effect the CR overall...and more so the "squish" volume than anything...which will contribute to how the motor will run overall characteristically.  The interesting thing to look at on the 1.2 would be the valve reliefs and whether they stay the same  or "switch" like they do on the 4 cyl TDI's. (i.e. cyl 1/2 are the same, then 3/4 mirror image the valve impressions of 1/2). So, there would be some machining of the valve reliefs but it wouldn't be alot.  
Oh....wait...i have the answers to that. Bottom view of the 1.2 head...

compared to that of a pic I pulled of my build ...this is a 1z/AHU head...not from the same exact angle...but I did rotate the above imagine so the front of the head is facing the same direction as this one...

So guess what...there is an answer there...buying 2 Cyl 1/2 pistons from the 1.2 engine and 2- Cyl 3 pistons from a 1.2 will give you the correct orientation for the valve relief for the 1.6 TDI project (utilizing a 1z/AHU TDI head) as well as the orientation of the combustion chamber...

You would need to know the wrist pins sizes and accomodate the tapered rods that the 1.2 pistons will have, but the 1.6's in theory could be used (possible rebushing of 1.6 rod may or may not be needed) to accomodate. It def would be nice to have a 1.2 piston and rod to look at...

Or from there...its finding through the various other DI engines out there on the market what "could" work.
However, in some of the other considerations (wasn't Renault mentioned back a few pages) regarding pistons...it would be "who" of anyone thinking of...considering something along those lines to CC those units and see what the CR would be (before you even start) considering in the calculation the bore that you would need to have in using these in the 1.6 block (while also considering your rod bushings, wrist pins, etc) as DI combustion chambers differ between manufacturers... and the placement of the combustion chamber and the valve reliefs on the piston. All differ when looking at different pistons
A custom piston is almost going to be needed to make things work correctly but it shall be interesting to see if someone can get ahold of 1.2 pistons for an idea or two...

You do have something to start with...

Joe