just want to check

[mufflerbearing]

i just want to check and make sure im on the right track here.

after some problems with my old motor and timing belt not getting along, i got another 1.6na with 80k miles on the clock from a respectable guy. the motor had been sitting for about a year in his garage before i bought it and looked just the same as any other motor of its age would.

i cleaned the motor up, installed a new timing belt along with my old pump and thought i was to be on my merry little way. after installing the timing belt and setting the timing per the bentley manual 5 or so times i couldnt get anything out of the motor, not even a single belch of black smoke. i was getting fuel at the injectors, and i bled the lines. checked and re-checked the pump timing and it was spot on.

through my awesome powers of deduction, i figured the injectors were clogged from sitting so long with open return lines. so i swapped injectors (have not had a chance to install new heat shields yet) and it fired right up after a couple tries. only problems are it idles really rough at higher rpm, surges a bit at lower rpm, is very slow to pick up engine speed, and im getting quite a bit of blue/gray smoke out of the tailpipe.

my first guess as to why it is idling a bit rough at lower rpm's was that i did not replace the injector heat shields and was loosing a little bit of compression through there. only problem with this is it does not explain why i have so much gray smoke coming out of the tailpipe.

my thoughts are that i either have bad rings or valve stem seals. my biggest fear is that from sitting idle for so long, a little moisture built up in one or more of the bores and they got a bit rusty. after i replace the heat shields, i will do a compression test to see what the internals look like.

so, to my questions. would it be reasonable to believe that if compression comes out ok that my valve stem seals are shot? and if it comes out with one or more cylinders having low compression that i have bad rings? or will all of these problems go away once i replace the magical injector heat shields?

thanks

-j

[burn_your_money]

What do you have your timing set at? Is the cold start pushed in when you time the engine?
Sounds exactly like my Golf when I timed it with the cold start out. It was at 0.50mm roughly :oops:

[mufflerbearing]

cold start knob was pushed in all the way. i even tried it with the cable detached one time.

i have it set at 1mm right now.

runs like butt when i have the cold start in or out.

-j

[Quantum TD]

Compression test. Then go from there. Sounds like it could be a HG.

Rust shouldn't build in the cylinders, unless it was stored outside in the rain. Even ambient humidity won't screw up the bores.

I doubt it's the heat shields, but anything's possible.

When you do the compression test, if you get off readings on adjacent cylinders, assume HG.

Another thing to look for when it's running.: Start the car with the overflow cap off. Watch the water coming thru the return line. It should be a steady stream or trickle. If you find it's coming thru in spurts, then assume the HG is bad.

[burn_your_money]

Why would you assume a bad HG if it is coming out in spurts?

Where did you get the replacement injectors from?

[mufflerbearing]

ive got a little hole in my thermostat, so the water is coming out nice and even as soon as i start it up.

i pulled the injectors from the motor that died. so as of right now im running the injectors, lines, pump, and brackets from the dead motor on the new one.

im really hoping its the headgasket... i wanted to get a metal one anyways.

-j

[burn_your_money]

im really hoping its the headgasket...

You're crazy. That has to be one of the worst jobs to do.

Do you have a hydro or mechanical head? Or do you already know what you are doing with the gasket?

But to stay on the topic of it not running, the old injectors worked just fine in the other car?

[hamradio]

well, a head gasket is pretty cheap.  And if it isn't the problem, it eliminates another possibility.

[mufflerbearing]

i would rather do a head gasket than a head gasket and rings.

its a mechanical head.

the injectors and pump ran great in the old motor.

the only thing i can think of that causes gray smoke is engine oil in the combustion chamber... head gasket, rings, and valve stem seals are the only things i can think of that would cause this. only thing is i dont think valve stem seals wouldn't case the running issues that im having... would they?

-j

[burn_your_money]

valves are all properly adjusted?

[Quantum TD]

valves are all properly adjusted?

Yeah, that occured to me too.

The only things I can think of

1) HG as noted above. The compression test should help eliminate that possibility.

2) Valve clearance? If you've got mechanical lifters, they should be adjusted. It's actually the best idea to check/adjust them before doing the comprssion test. Most original  motors from the 1980s were almost NEVEr adjusted.

3)Dirt in the injectors when you took it apart? One piece of dirt in one injector could do some wrong.

4) Pump timing off a tooth. You can still time the pump with it off a tooth, but it won't run quite right.  If you've checked the compression and it looks good, then check your timing. Also, when you installed the TB, did you use a lock plate to set the cam timing? That might help a bit in terms of dialing in the cam timing.

5) Another SLIM possibility, but it's been documented here before, is the TDC mark on the flywheel being off because someone mounted the flywheel to the Pressure plate incorrectly. This will mess up your timing.


If it does turn out to be the HG, slapping a new one on won't solve the problem. You need to resurface the head (properly), and it's a good time to change the valve seals, check the guides and the valves.

Another concern with a blown HG is the warpage continuing into the cam journals. When the head warps badly (say more than double the wear limit), then the cam journal warp can wear the cam, the journals and the lifters abnormally.

[mufflerbearing]

have not adjusted the valves yet. that is in the plan when i get a chance to mess around with the car.

i am 99% sure the injectors are clean and free of any dirt. i cut the fingers out of latex gloves and put them over the injectors and all of the lines on the pump. i also cleaned up the area around each union before disconnecting anything. i did the same with the injector lines and also flushed them out with carb cleaner a day or 2 before installation.

i am using the cam and pump locking tools to put the tb on. one issue i came upon was after putting the belt on, i had to skip back a tooth on the pump to get the lift at tdc correct. the mark on the gear, pump, and bracket are all still in the same general location... but just not perfect. when i try to time the pump with it in the location that i get with the locking tool its advanced way too far and the lowest i can get it down to is 1.25mm. the car wont even hold idle like this.

i have thought about the tdc on the flywheel being off, but this is the same flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate that i had on the old motor with no timing issues. i checked and double checked that it could only go in one way with the locating pins before i installed it... but there is still a possibility that its wrong. i ran into something similar with a gas motor once. everything lined up but the timing mark was off.

is there an easy way to check if my flywheel is on correctly without pulling anything apart? what direction is that little dimple on the crank gear supposed to point when im at tdc?

thanks for all the help guys!

-j

[Quantum TD]

Someone posted a pic with the pulley location. I think that it's supposed to point up, but I'm not certain. I can check tomorrow.

As for your problem. I think we've found the cause (or at least one problem). From what I can gather, you put the TB on with the flywheel at TDC, and the cam at TDC (locked). When you put the cam at TDC, you should have the mark on the aluminum IP body lined up with the notch on the bracket. The mark on the sprocket (inside edge) should also be lined up with the same marks (all 3 in a line: roughly).

What I often find is that in order to get the TB on with no slack between the IP and the crank, I have to remove the locking pin from the IP, and rotate the IP sprocket 1/2 a tooth FORWARD. Once it's on, I rotate it back (counterclockwise) and put the pin back in. Then, I double check the flywheel mark. I've never had a problem with this method, but with a new belt (Conti), I almost always have to do the same thing (rotate forward 1/2 tooth).

If you've got the IP timed up properly with the crank and the cam, then you should be able to properly time the IP with your dial gauge. Once it's timed, the mark on the IP should be forward 0r backward of the mounting bracket notch a little bit (can't recall which at the moment).

If you had to move the IP back a tooth, this could have thrown off the crank/cam timing if there was slack between the IP and the crank. Get what I"m saying? I doubt that happened, but it sounds like your IP is still off a tooth. Either way, it's worth checking, and it's alot easier than pulling the head.

Another thing to consider is that perhaps one or more of the rings is stuck. Usually happens on older motors, but you might want to drive it a while to see if it clears up. Thats also another way to cheaply and quickly test to see if you've got a blown HG. If youu drive the car hard and then park it overnite, you can pull the cap off the overflow and check for residual pressure. There shouldnt' be any.

[mufflerbearing]

im pretty sure i have the timing set right. ive turned the motor over by hand as well as ran it for a few minutes and re-checked with the flywheel at tdc i was able to slip the cam locking plate in. at this position i was pushing 1mm lift at the pump.

i might have slipped the gear a tooth forward or back, i cant remember... but i do know that i had no slack between the ip and the pump and the same between the pump and crank. i followed the directions in the bentley about locking the cam and letting its gear spin freely, seemed to go on alright but im gonna keep on trying things till i get it right!


next chance i get ill be checking the valves then doing a compression test.

-j

[burn_your_money]

As long as the dial gauge is showing 1.00mm (or whatever you want your timing at) it can be off a tooth in either direction. It makes no difference.

You can take an injector out and fish a piece of wire into the engine to check for TDC. You could also drop a valve which might be more accurate. You don't need to find exact TDC this way, just as long as it's close to the mark on the flywheel you are ok. If you do drop a valve make sure that the engine is at about TDC so you don't have to take the head off to get it back out.

You are using a NA pump with NA injectors right?