Author Topic: Is this cam done for? (Read 7036 times)

westcoaster · « **on:** March 08, 2008, 09:35:24 pm »

A guy might have difficulty timing the engine with this, would there be any other reason not to use this cam? Oil pressure perhaps?

edit: it's an '87 1.6 td

cyrus #1 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2008, 10:19:48 pm »

How the hell did that happen? :shock: I wouldn't run it like that, but I'm hardly an expert. Is the other part still floating around inside? It could probably be repaired without too much hassle.

the caveman · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2008, 10:25:12 pm »

i've seen cars run with even more damaged cams then that, but you should be able to find a cheap replacement rather than take the chance.
isn't that the thrust bearing end? it may eventually wear the bearing cap and then the whole head is toast.

westcoaster · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2008, 10:37:29 pm »

Quote from: "cyrus #1"

How the hell did that happen? :shock: I wouldn't run it like that, but I'm hardly an expert. Is the other part still floating around inside? It could probably be repaired without too much hassle.

The other piece is not floating about in there so I would guess the lid was off when it happened. Someone used the cam lock to undo the bolt on the other end? (or tighten?)

I got the motor, ran it for a day, figured out it has "issues" and pulled it out.

I have requests for quotes on another cam floating about out there. I'll see what they come back as on Monday.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2008, 10:58:12 pm »

Ahh. F--- it. It's fine. So long as the cips aren't floating around it's fine. You can still time it like that. Honestly, I use the cam lock plate to loosen the cam bolt all the time. I've never had a problem. But I guess that there are those meatheads out there that overtoque the crap out of them.

If you do go with a replacement cam, there are only two different cams for the 1.6 IDI and turbo. There's one cam for mechanical lifters, and one for hydraulic. There is no difference between NA and turbo.

Black Smokin' Diesel · « **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2008, 11:27:10 pm »

The cam in my NA golf was worse than this. The entire end was missing and the cam would walk side to side. Never had an issue for the 30 000km I owned it.

boxer246 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2008, 11:27:33 am »

Well what is the correct tool to use for holding the cam to tighten and loosen?

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2008, 11:56:29 am »

One version looks like this guy below the Crescent wrench:

In use it looks like this:

I think it was $15 at the local tool jobber... not the best quality but one of tools that "you don't need often, but when you need it it's gold".

boxer246 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2008, 12:10:25 pm »

sweet...thanks for the info guys....I never saw a sprocket holder. I always just used the cam tool, and never thought much of it because 33ft/lbs doesnt seem like that much to me. But after your comments, Andrew, I went out and torqued mine down to 45ft/lbs on the TD im putting in my Caddy today.

Man I hate that whole VW waterpump crap......how many different combinations of pulley diameters with offsets and outlet sizes and whatever....makes taking a motor from one car and putting it in a totally different car a pain. Well not a pain, but its one of those details I totally overlooked until today.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2008, 12:48:30 pm »

Quote from: "libbybapa"

It's interesting your use of "meathead" when referring to over-torgueing the cam sprocket and yet you use the camlock for loosening and tightening...
Andrew

I'm not sure what edition of the MK 1 Bentley manual you have, but in my 1986 Edition here are the steps for installing a new timing belt (pgs 5: 17-18 ):

"To install and adjust drive belt:
1. If you have not done so, lock the camshaft (with special tool 2065 cam lock tool) and the injection pump in the No. 1 cylinder positions as shown previously in Fig 5.2 and Fig. 5.3.

2. Check that the flywheel TDC mark is still correctly aligned with the pointer.

3. Loosen the camshaft sprocket bolt one turn. Then loosen the sprocket from the camshaft tapered end by tapping the sprocket with a rubber hammer.

Then later

7. Torque the camshaft sprocket bolt to 45 Nm (33 ft.lb). Then remove the locking tool from the camshaft.

The same exact procedure is outlined in the MK 2 Bentley manual on Page 6: 16-17.

The same exact procedure is outlined in the MK 3 Bentley manual for the 1.9 IDI on pages 23a: 9-10.

The same exact procedure is outlined in the MK 3 Bentley manual for the 1.9 TDI on pages 23b: 8-9.

In no instance is there ANY mention of needing a separate camshaft sprocket tool in ANY Bentley manual, until you get to the MK IV TDI, which has a unique and delicate camshaft lock area, due to the adaptation for the vacuum pump.

So, how am I a meathead (as you insinuate) for following the instructions in the Bentley manual?

I've used the camshaft lock tool when I've loosened/torqued the cam bolt on every timing job I've ever done (about 4 dozen for my own cars and customers). I've also only torqued the bolt to the proper specs (but I do have my wrenches calibrated every 16 months). I've yet to have any problem. In some instances I have followed the Bentely specs for torque values, but have added an extra 20-30 degrees of turn afterwards (final value is about 36-38 ft.lbs).

P.S. The meatheads I was referring to, are the ones that use an impact wrench to put the cam sprocket on.

smutts · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2008, 01:22:08 pm »

Me? I use a piece of 1/8 inch lead flashing around a cam lobe, and a decent sized adjustable spanner. No disasters yet. :twisted:

jtanguay · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2008, 01:42:27 pm »

i bet if you used a cam lock tool with some 'slop' to it, it might wreck the camshaft end. i bought a kit from a German seller on ebay and the kit was great. the camshaft locking tool was very tight (needed some taps to install it) and I don't recall needing any other special tools to install/remove the sprocket (andy2 helped me out). however if you don't have the right locking plate, then don't trust it.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2008, 01:46:58 pm »

Quote from: "jtanguay"

i bet if you used a cam lock tool with some 'slop' to it, it might wreck the camshaft end. i bought a kit from a German seller on ebay and the kit was great. the camshaft locking tool was very tight (needed some taps to install it) and I don't recall needing any other special tools to install/remove the sprocket (andy2 helped me out). however if you don't have the right locking plate, then don't trust it.

I have the same tool, probably from the same guy (part of a kit that included the lock pin and the dial indicator?). Tap it in, and it locks it tight. There's no need for feeler gauges jammed in there. As long as there isn't 100 ft.lbs of torque on the bolt, it comes out no problem every time.

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2008, 02:45:28 pm »

Positioned correctly, a mammoth Crescent wrench can grab an available lobe of the cam and not damage the working surface:

For me, the $15 tool was cheap insurance against scratching the cam *or* busting the end off it.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2008, 04:58:14 pm »

Quote

I can honestly say that I have personally been a meathead on many occasions. I didn't mean to offend and so, likely it was a meathead move on my part that I even posted my previous post and possibly this one. Again, I appreciate your posts here and I'm sure others do as well and I apologize if I came off harshly.

No problem: no offense taken. Just a knee jerk reaction.

I think in the end it all comes down to experience (as you note). I've had situations when loosening the cam bolt, where I knew that the bolt was torqued well beyond a 'normal' range of about 33-55 ft.lbs: more in the range of 60-90 ftlbs. In those instances, I've been a bit leery about holding the cam with the lock plate, but did so anyway without ill repercussions. I happen to have a really nice 'custom' lock plate, that fits in really snug (noted by Vince), which has served me well (knock on wood). I'm sure the first time I snap the tail off a camshaft, will be the last time, as I convert to using a cam wrench. I just prefer the ease of the lock plate, and it's apparently standard procedure.

As for the final torque value, I agree that overtorquing is not all that bad, so long as you don't take it too far (beyond say 50 ft.lbs). As I noted, I usually go a bit beyond the 33 ft.lbs specified by Bentley. I've been doing it alot more recently, just because it 'feels' like it wants to take some more, not because of any bad experiences. It's never a ton more, just a little extra oomph at the end, to seal the deal. I've often had to go back to a TB job I've done (not for any mistakes, usually because the pump has started to leak months after the job). At 33-50 ft.lbs. I've yet to have a problem getting the bolt or the cam off.

The main reason I think I eschew the cam wrench, is that I've already got too much invested in goofy VW specific tools, and don't want to buy/fabricate another. It's bad enough that VW had to change the locking tools for the ALH motor, but then you have to buy a load of new tools to lock the crank, remove the crank bolt, etc. I've already got about $500-1000 in VW tools, and I need to buy even more. :twisted: