Another M-tdi question <sorrrry>

[Tintin]

+1,   I am completely in agreement with Joe.

Just to talk, of how much the advance timing piston moves in your M-pump to have the good timing at wot at 4000RPM.

How much cm3/1000s your pump can it produce at wot at 4000rpm  :lol:

[andy2]

I know a guy that bought a tdi-m pump from the states and it looked proper as it had the correct pump housing,bigger driveshaft,LDA and it even had an 11mm head with a TDI camplate.I installed the pump and it made as much power as a 1.6 non turbo.We removed the LDA pin completely and turned up the fuel as high as possible before it starts to rev on its own.Now it had as much power as a 1.6TD  :lol: .

I took it into work and (Mike) our pump tech and I went through it and after we modified some parts to get more fueling and more advance for the TDI engine we then tried it again and it still only made a little more power like a 1.9td.

The pump came off again and this time we completely changed all of the controls to use cummins parts and top housing.Now we have lots of fuel delivery and managed to find a good gov spring to keep fuel fueling on
till 4000 rpm.This governor is not that great for the vw but it works and was are only option to get the fueling where we wanted it without spending more time and money for parts.

I just thought I'd share my experience with you guys just to show you how some people that build TDI-m pumps don't know what they are doing they might be able to assemble a TDI-m pump but have no knowlege on how to make it perform.

[Tintin]

You said very well what occurs with the M-pump with only a TDI head + came plate, same power as 1.6D  :lol:  :lol:    and when modified it with proper parts, that takes much knowledge to give a good result.

[RabbitGTDguy]

I don't believe anyone accused you of anything...more questions your claims.

There is alot more that goes into "pump design and performance" than just swapping a camplate/plunger/hydraulic head when your using the IDI pumps as a base...
Bosch did do a great job at keeping their pumps inner workings a fairly good secret and to this day, in MOST...not all BOSCH shops, most will not tweak a pump beyond its factory settings as specified by bosch.

However, there are many considerations to address when looking at the IDI engine vs. the DI engines (here talking specifically about the TDI). Fuel pressure, timing advance and camplate profile are only a few.

What are your considerations in building your mTDI pumps when it comes to timing advance?  Its an important consideration...

What about full load fueling vs. relative and max RPM's? Are you aware of the operation and travel of the gov./throttle mechnism on a true mechanical direct injection pump vs. a indirect injection pump?

True bench testing will show you this...in the hard numbers. Actual testing on a car (as many of us can't afford the test equipment) provides a realistic sense of differences when you know "how" a mechanically controlled, direct injection diesel engine should sound like, smoke like and operate like as well.

I'm not going to beat the dead horse here...but sure, you are able to "suceed" in "running" an mTDI with a simply modified IDI injection pump (by swapping the hydraulic head, plunger, camplate for a TDI unit), but is it going to perform at its best potential? No, not without further modification to areas that those of us that spend their lives rebuilding/modifying pumps for a living (i.e. Giles) or those of us that have been down the mTDI road before, know what these engines are looking for specifically internally (not just fuel considerations) have discovered.  The pump you build will run the engine...but not optimally...plain and simple. I'd put mine, a Tin-Tin or a Giles pump up against that anyday.  I'd be interested in seeing the smoking habits, sound of the motor under load and how it would handle "further" fueling...if it isn't already maxed out.

However, if your customers are happy....then they don't know the less and with the number of mTDI's popping up quite frequently now, I wouldn't be suprised. Simply put, in the configuration that you have thus far mentioned....maybe stock power is achieveable. Thats a big maybe. Is the pump properly balanced and tuned for the motor though? I would doubt it, but would enjoy being proven wrong. Again, to some though this really may not matter. To many on the boards here though, I think they'd take this into carefull consideration. If your happy with a ton of smoke, not enough advance, etc. by all means. Run the route. However, optimal performance and economy will never be obtained.  

my .02....again.


Prothe, on seperate occasions I've actual bought a product from you and inquired about other bits (on ebay). Namely, the source country for your hydraulic heads,  and "performance" nozzles, etc. On a few different occasions, and I never received a response. I'm not going to say that may it was just a missed inquiry, etc. given the volume of inquires that you may have...but its just that. It didn't make me settled in your product though and I could draw my own conclusions, but chose the route of more expense...especially given the track record of some aftermarket junk that has been sold elsewhere. In the end, I really am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. I learned that with the timing kit I got....though, the cam lock plate still comes in handy!

This isn't a flame and please do not take it that way...as with many diesel goods on the market one can argue how they are installed, condition, expertise, etc. among a variety of other things and you certainly aren't the only one that sells these goods. Many have had "good" experiences if you want to call them that...no ill effects, everything works, ok, etc. but again....you get what you paid for.

Joe

[scottyroccodiesel]

i am really sorry for instigating this...

 Thank you very much for the heads up rabbitgtd and tintin.  I also sent prothe a message and got no reply.

I know my best bet is to just save up and get a giles or tintin pump, in he long run its the best route by far.  I only have a tdi pump though so do I have to buy a td pump to send in?  and who has had exspierence with both in regards to m-tdi applications?  any suggestions?

[Tintin]

Copy past reply....  for the pump explanation.  héhé!!

I sells some driveable M-pump in the past and the last year and built some other for my friends here, and a lot and a lot ...... of experimentation for my M-tdi car,  and today that does not interest me any more to sell this type of pump, it's much more complicated to build a real M-pump than 300$, so I loses my time and I do not have the necessary equipment, this is why I wonder how you make to sell your pump not expensive.

250$ for me It's only for a bosch seal rebuilt without modification, in a shop it's around 500-600$

To built only one M-pump It's easy, but for a lot a these pump that take a lot of DI specific pumps parts and it's very expensive, and the asian pumps seller are not interested to provide these specific parts.

Buy a TDI car and installs one of your M-pump, (resell the car after the test) you will very quickly understand what one wants to explain you, Andy2 have explain very well what occurs.

You are it welcome in this forum but sell there good product, if not you will burn your name quickly, that change nothing for me, It's for you.

[RabbitGTDguy]

i am really sorry for instigating this...

 Thank you very much for the heads up rabbitgtd and tintin.  I also sent prothe a message and got no reply.

I know my best bet is to just save up and get a giles or tintin pump, in he long run its the best route by far.  I only have a tdi pump though so do I have to buy a td pump to send in?  and who has had exspierence with both in regards to m-tdi applications?  any suggestions?

I don't think you instigated anything really...
Honestly, this is good information to have out there.

Prothe,
I can respect what you are saying... however, take in consideration "the cheap route" and your lack of R&D with the pumps that you are building down the road...especially as far as customer satisfaction goes. I can gurantee you that reliability and functionality will suffer down the road when you don't take into consideration some of the key elements (between both pumps) that make these cars run good and trouble free.
I think you'll see what I'm saying down the road in not so many times.

On a 1.6 TDI kit... interesting, your going to "market" this kit? So people can convert their 1.6 IDI cars to TDI? I'd be interested in the research and depth that went into this considering what would need to be changed and accounted for between these engines. Or is it a bunch of parts to make this happen? i.e. pistons, i'm assuming a 1z/AHU head *as its the only one that would even fit on the 1.6 block*, injectors, hold downs, lines, your "mTDI pump" and ?
Is this something that you have already setup yourself? Have one running? Again, alot of R&D will go into something like that to make it work efficiently and properly...I can think of a number of issues in your way right off the bat.

As Martin said...and well put, your more than welcome here as is any good diesel head. However,  I do have issues with people that put together things that don't have time invested into it and are out to make a quick buck.

You originally mentioned "I founded my business on the fundamental belief that VW diesel owners want to save money. They don't want to spend $500 on a rebuilt injector pump for a car that is worth $1000. The only reason they drive these cars is to save money. This is where I come in."  
What your selling isn't going to save them money in the end. Also, these cars, especially diesels are now worth quite a bit more than $1000. Saving money isn't the only reason they drive these cars as well. They break down, are expensive to fix in many cases but are a labor of many things. Part of saving money is doing the required work and research and giving your customer a quality product.

Err....don't know and think I'll stop there. scottyroccodiesel, sorry if this brought you off topic, but to me...this just doesn't smell right.

Joe

[scottyroccodiesel]

no I hear ya, I talked about it with my dad and I am just going to save up for the summer and then go for the giles pump.  in the long run it is defently the best way to go for performance , ease of install, and longevity. I just dont know if i should be looking for a td pump or can i just send him my tdi pump as a core my dad gave me his number i should probably give him a call

[RabbitGTDguy]

Giles and Tin-Tin alike would require you to send them a IDI TD pump (probably preferably an AAZ pump) and a TDI pump to work with. You pay on top of that for the modifications...

Joe

[scottyroccodiesel]

oh man thats goin to be really pricey then.... darn

[RabbitGTDguy]

If you look in the right spots...you can use a leaky pump or "core" pump as your candidate....both these guys reseal the pumps as part of the build. A nice thing to have considering the effects of ULSD now.

Joe

[hillfolk'r]

my  12mm M pump was built at my old job in ohio,and he said if you supplied the parts he can build them for around 500 or so(neg oiate w/him)
but no one wants to  take him up on the offer
if you tried my car,the throttle response is so nice,friends drive it and they are all jerky ....never had a diesel respond so nice
mines an 84 1.6 td pump with a 12mm head
thats where mine came from,and its been great for years
hey its no giles pump,but if i had traction id be in the 13's (99 mph trap speeds),and yea i still get 52 mpg driving to+from the track
its gotta be 80% as good as a giles pump for 1/2 price at least
you could build a pump at home,but id have it tested at a fuel lab before running it,send it to my boy
pm me if you are serious about having a good pump built

[RabbitGTDguy]

hillfolk'r. Still, if I remember correctly (as we have talked in detail about this). Your pump that your friend built for you is MORE than just a IDI TD pump with a 12mm head. You had some timing considerations to take into effect as well, etc.

[Tintin]

There is another mechanical thing about different pump set-up.

A TDI motor need a quick injection of fuel, faster than IDI but It's not a secrecy, the TDI injection cicle is produced with a smaller pump rotation, I already made a funny test with different came plate maxed with bigger or smaller head rotor, and I found a cool result.

The more agresive cam plate makes move the plunger more faster for X° of pump rotation than the IDI came profile, thus
calculated with the cilyndrical volume of different plunger with the same °(degre) of pump rotation, a 10mm head with TDI ALH came plate have exactly the same result than the 14mm head with AAZ came plate, a set-up or the other on TDI engine does not change anything, it does not have there a noticeable difference.

The only thing which occurs in the pump it's that the TDI came plate lift of 2mm whereas the AAZ came lift of 1mm for the same degrée of rotation and the same amount of fuel, (obligatorily the inj. pressure is the same).

[jtanguay]

There is another mechanical thing about different pump set-up.

A TDI motor need a quick injection of fuel, faster than IDI but It's not a secrecy, the TDI injection cicle is produced with a smaller pump rotation, I already made a funny test with different came plate maxed with bigger or smaller head rotor, and I found a cool result.

The more agresive cam plate makes move the plunger more faster for X° of pump rotation than the IDI came profile, thus
calculated with the cilyndrical volume of different plunger with the same °(degre) of pump rotation, a 10mm head with TDI ALH came plate have exactly the same result than the 14mm head with AAZ came plate, a set-up or the other on TDI engine does not change anything, it does not have there a noticeable difference.

The only thing which occurs in the pump it's that the TDI came plate lift of 2mm whereas the AAZ came lift of 1mm for the same degrée of rotation and the same amount of fuel, (obligatorily the inj. pressure is the same).

so you're saying that one could just put a 14mm head on an AAZ pump and it would act similarily to a 10mm TDI pump?  hmmmmm and the cam plate lift difference of 1mm might help the AAZ pump rev a little higher while keeping the injection pressures???  very interesting stuff!