Starting problems

[Baselyne]

Im having a starting issue...the car ran fine before

I tried to start my car and it wasnt working...

So Ive checked the wires... there are only two to the starter on my 1980 diesel rabbit
one red/blk and the other pos from the bat.

On the red/black wire I hooked the multi meter and while cranking I have full 12 volts. or 11.something...yyaadayadaa

so I hook the wire back up to the starter and try an crank with multimeter on the battery terminals... to test for voltage and somehow when I crank all the voltage drop right out of the battery and or starter!

when I hooked a stright pos off the battery to the starter it pops but doesnt spin,,,, is there a problem there? Or am I missing something?

would the starter ever get stuck on a point and not be able to turn for some reason? besides the terrible thought that the ring gear is...cant be  it was just running....

Any input from anyone else? Please help...

[Doug]

I seriously doubt that ring gear or starter gear have failed. It sounds like the solenoid is picking up. Given that the battery is good (?), your ground connections are good, and the battery positive connections are good (that means that you have taken all of them apart, cleaned and reconnected them) then look to the braided copper cable that goes from the starter positive terminal to the brush holder assembly internally. This is subject to corrosion as it is made up of many very fine copper wires. I had to replace this on a starter of newer vintage than yours. If that is solid then maybe the brushes have worn to the point that they are no longer making contact with the commutator of the starter. Of course if repairs are not your thing then just go plunk down a bag of cash for a rebuilt starter.

[Baselyne]

where is the starter ground? There isnt one is there?

 Yes the battery is good!

Shouldnt the starter pop out and spin when its jumped by a seperate battery?

[Doug]

where is the starter ground? There isnt one is there?

Normally there will be a ground cable from the battery ground/chassis ground to the motor/transmission - just look around for it. If there isn't one then make one up.

 Yes the battery is good!

Have you load tested the battery?

Shouldnt the starter pop out and spin when its jumped by a seperate battery?

Read the rest of the previous post carefully!

[duffer]

Perhaps the starter bushing, in the
   bell housing is worn allowing the
   starter to jam on the flywheel.

[Baselyne]

Perhaps the starter bushing, in the
   bell housing is worn allowing the
   starter to jam on the flywheel.

Then wouldnt i be able to turn the crank to another tooth and she should push on by? Provided that the damage isnt thru-out! It's not possible that its just hard for the starter to turn because of cold temps in the block/oil)

I'm avoiding having to tear the starter apart to repair it because it was cranking yesterday and now its not! Should'nt there be some idiot test... when I jump a spair battery directly to the starter it should work

If i remove the starter and try to jump it to a spair battery where would the ground wire go? to the casing? positive goes to both red wires correct>?

If It's good it's going to pop out and spin correct? If it doesnt then I need to open it, Correct?

[duffer]

If you take the starter out,
  connect the positive to the starter
  from the battery +
  and the ground cable from the
  battery - bolted to one of the
  starter mounting holes.

  If the starter spins and works fine.
  try turning the engine over by hand.

  If the engine turns and the starter
  spins, freely, I would suspect the
  bushing in the bell housing.

  If the engine doesn't turn, by hand,
  you have a more serious problem.

  Hope this helps.

[duffer]

Oh, I should point out that
   I'm no expert on starters,
   it's just that, what you're
   describing is exactly what
   happened to me a few
   months ago.

   In my case, it turned out
   to be the bushing.

   I tapped it, for a bolt, pulled
   it out and tapped-in a new one.

   After that everything worked fine.

[Baselyne]

I jumped the starter and even a spair off a seperate battery and they both pop but dont spin...

if someone could varify this action of a known working starter

is that actully what it's suppose to do? Why all of a sudden dont they spin
because both of these were working correctly

pos on terminal

ground on one bolt hole of the housing

pop....but no spinny  why>?
 

then look to the braided copper cable that goes from the starter positive terminal to the brush holder assembly internally. This is subject to corrosion as it is made up of many very fine copper wires. I had to replace this on a starter of newer vintage than yours. If that is solid then maybe the brushes have worn to the point that they are no longer making contact with the commutator of the starter. Of course if repairs are not your thing then just go plunk down a bag of cash for a rebuilt starter.

I suppose this is my only other suspect>?

[burn_your_money]

The popping sound is the solenoid extending (or retracting, I forget) and pushing the starter gear into mesh with the flywheel teeth. It's not spinning because of one (or a combo) of several reasons.

1- pilot bushing in tranny is worn as previously mentioned

2- worn brushes preventing the starter from getting enough torque to spin

3- bad connections, grounds or positive also allowing insufficient power (amps) to crank the engine over.

Suggestions - check all the starter connections for voltage drop while attempting to crank

Plug in the bock heater - your engine might be too cold and your oil to thick

Get a heater on the tranny - the oil could be too thick although pushing in the clutch eliminates this from the equation

Bench test the starters - You need the proper bench tester to measure amperage draw with resistance and whatnot but you can check to see if the starter will free spin. Hook the negative up to the housing, preferably one of the mounting bolts. Hook the positive up to the 13mm bolt that the main power usually connects to. Bridge a connection between positive and the small spade connector; this energizes the solenoid and starts the starter spinning.

Also make a visual check of the starter to make sure the small ground strap between the solenoid and the starter is still intact

I apologize if this makes no sense, it's way past my bed time and I'm taking a break from a project

[Jetta Fan]

It is not uncommon for a starter to click and yet not spin. Like Tyler said (and it made sense even though he was up late) it could be several factors in the starter. The brushes could be gone or excessively worn, the winding could be toast, a wire inside could have corroded off...could be a number of things. If the battery is good and the connections are all good, you are going to have to pop the starter off and have it tested.

[Baselyne]

when I take it off the starter pops/spins in perfect working order as all of my other working starters have....So the starter is Ok!

Im thinking its wires...?

I tested continuity between the trans/motor ground to bat. Fine,
I tested for power on red at crank, fine!
when i put red back onto installed starter, stright voltage drop off apon crank!

[jimfoo]

Are you measuring the voltage drop across the wire from the batt to starter or just measuring the voltage between starter + and ground? The battery voltage, starter + to ground, will drop on cranking normally. If you have a bad wire, you will get a voltage across the wire, batt + to starter +.

[burn_your_money]

Also a bad starter can easily spin itself when it has no load on it, you really need to get it load tested to make sure it's working correctly.

As Jim said you need to measure voltage drop, not just voltage and not just resistance. Voltage drop is sort of a combination of the two while the system is under load

[Baselyne]

I hooked up a test push start to jump red/blk off the battery directly with everything else hooked up and i got nothing

I then took another good battery and tested it again and walaa
she didnt start but I found that the starter was infact working correctly
I also found that there was no votage drop off it was just a battery with voltage but no amprage(power)!!!??? My guess is the winter sit has done a number on the battery

I put it on to charge and im going to try to crank the *** out of it later..
Also I do beleave the no start has to do with the temps and not pluggin in the block heater

We'll post back to let you know...thanks so much for helping to figure this out! I cannot beleave I went thru all that over a battery

batteries really dont keep well in the cold i guess