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Greasecar Rabbit TDI build (for real this time)
by
Greasecar
on 19 Dec, 2007 17:12
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Now that I have my maroon car on the road as my daily driver I can turn my attention to putting a TDI into my other shell as originally planned. The only change is now I have two engine options. When I was originally thinking of building a Rabbit TDI I hoped to drop in a PD engine but when my Golf burned up I figured I may as well just use the ALH engine. Right when I had everything together to build up the ALH a BEW PD motor fell in my lap. The engine dropped a glowplug which totalled one of the pistons, damaged the head and somehow destroyed the turbo. Fortunately I was able to source a turbo, head and pistons for around $800 so now I am torn as to which engine to use.
On one hand the ALH is a straightforward swap and would give me the option to run a mechanical injection system, on the other hand a PD would be way more unique.
Any opinions on this?
Tintin, VWMike, what are your thoughts from working with the PD. Did I understand correctly from the syncro build that you used an ECU from the ALH?
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#1
by
jtanguay
on 19 Dec, 2007 20:27
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doubt you could get an ecu from an ALH to run a PD. maybe if you were a god with electronics you could flash the ecu with a PD program. will the ECU let you reprogram the whole thing? meaning it can be electronically erased?? EEPROM?
i'd go with whichever is easier to get running. apparently there is some guy on TDIclub running veg on a PD engine. very interesting, but i wouldn't experiment on such a good engine. i know of a guy who installed a PD into a vw mk2 jetta/golf. you don't really need much electronic wise to get the motor running. delete the EGR.
much more power potential on the PD, but the ALH would be nice in mechanical form
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#2
by
Greasecar
on 20 Dec, 2007 09:19
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I'm not worried about the vegoil, my Passat PD has been runnning on it for 60K and we have over 100 customers who have been running them for the last few years. I just tore down the BEW that I am thinking of using for the project which had 50-60K on vegoil. The pistons were cleaner than the ones from the low milage parts motor that had been running diesel (except the cylinder that the glowplug tip dropped into).
I was reading TinTin's syncro thread where he made some comments about running the engine with the bare minimum of wiring and checking out the pinout and code on an ALH ECU but I couldn't tell if he was actually using the ECU or not.
Jtanguay, Do you have more details on that Europeand PD swap with the simple wiring that you posted in Tintin's thread? How are you approaching your PD swap?
I need to read through my Bosch ECU book which gives some insight into the control system for the VEs compared to the PDs. How do you do the EGR delete on the PD? I was researching it but only came up with info on ALH. Would have been a big help as I was fighting with a busted EGR valve in my Passat last week.
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#3
by
jtanguay
on 20 Dec, 2007 09:33
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i bought the whole setup from vw4motion over at TDIclub. i've put my project on hold as i don't really have any place to do the swap. mainly because of the fact that i'll need to weld on some motor mounts. it'll be one tough install thats for sure.
i'll try to ask peter if he can get me anymore info. he's starting to import the PD's and would like to get complete conversion packages out there.. simple wiring and all.
i've invested in a promising oil and gas company in hopes of making a couple grand to help pay for the installation of the motor + some cool ass manifolds from dave
so until that money comes in, the PD will have to wait, but my m-TDI will be moving forward... but the head gasket i bought doesn't fit my tdi 1Z block!!! aargh i thought i gave the right part number from ETKA...
stock symbol is MOO.V on the yahoo finance. :wink:
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#4
by
RabbitGTDguy
on 20 Dec, 2007 15:43
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Very interesting Justin, considering the PD engine and all in the MK1. I would have preferred to go the route of PD honestly for the b3...but only if I had EVERYTHING to go with it. All wiring, etc. etc.
As for the Mk1 though, i like the operation of the mTDI and the simplicity of the setup vs. the power trade off....especially when it has a properly built pump. Good stuff. Not to mention, the VE motors still seem to pull a bit better mileage out of them than the PD's...
I've also done alot of reading over on TDIclub regarding the PD's, etc. There are alot of considerations to take into account.
I remember Malone having some fun with his too
Joe
p.s. Let me rephrase that... I would have like to have the 2.0 PD motor offered in the Passat *for swap into my b3* way to expensive to find and even source parts for. I wouldn't turn away a 1.9 PD 8v though
In some ways, with all the bits...it'd make life easier.
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#5
by
Greasecar
on 20 Dec, 2007 16:09
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I agree about the simplicity and performance of the ALH/AHU setup especilly M-TDI, but I am up for a challenge. I still need to do some more reading up on what I'm getting into but I have a friend who is doing the same swap with a European PD (into a Caddy)and one of my installers is importing parts from Germany so I figure both of those connections will help. If I do go the PD route I can always put the ALH into my maroon car once the 1.6 kicks the bucket.
I don't have an ECU but I do have the engine wiring harness as well as the pedal and cluster out of my Golf (don't know whether those will cross over though).
Anyone know of any European sites that may have useful info on such a swap?
Check this out if you haven't seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_wvaXi_CYUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVw8Pwkf3U
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#6
by
jtanguay
on 20 Dec, 2007 17:20
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wow they must have basically just used the bare minimum wiring for that engine as it sounded louder than a 1.6.
kept the stock cluster too... that thing is crazy fast!!!!
GO PD :lol:
i think the main reasons that PD engines get worse mileage is that they're in heavier cars and produce more hp so people tend to drive them a bit harder. being tuned for the sake of lower emissions isn't helping mileage much either...
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#7
by
RabbitGTDguy
on 20 Dec, 2007 18:04
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i think the main reasons that PD engines get worse mileage is that they're in heavier cars and produce more hp so people tend to drive them a bit harder. being tuned for the sake of lower emissions isn't helping mileage much either...
Too true.
Def. don't get me wrong either. I'm not against PD
's I think it'd be fun and honestly I don't think wiring is all that challenging...now, getting it to run on as little as possible...that could be more of a challenge, but def GO FOR IT. Sometimes, honestly...you get alot more into the mTDI...doing it RIGHT than you would doing an eTDI swap...
If I had access and/or funds for a PD for a decent price. I'd be all over it.
I'm def. going to check out that site.
Joe
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#8
by
RabbitGTDguy
on 20 Dec, 2007 18:15
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WOW...that is quick...and maybe very stealthy for all those unsuspecting cars out there because it sounds like a IDI
or louder!
Very nice vid though...looks interesting. Wonder what the "pop off turbo diesel" device is. I'm assuming, watching and looking at the vid...and listening that it is a diesel pop off valve...similar to this.
http://www.ricambituning.it/product1.asp?id=483&cat=45He also does show the ECM there, with obviously and IMB defeat of some kind. Very nice.
Joe
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#9
by
jtanguay
on 20 Dec, 2007 19:03
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would be nice to change ecu settings on the fly... that engine sounds like it has a ton of advance :lol: .
at the strip make it sound like an IDI hehe... of course under the hood will let everyone know whats up.
it is possible to get these engines running on bare minimum. stick a resistor of the right kind to give the baseline reading in each sensor. the engine will run, and run good except in extreme cold or extreme heat, and there will probably be more black smoke out the back etc. due to the pump being 'blind' of what is really going on inside the engine.
i've been wondering why there's nobody out there selling a kit for TDI's to run like this. basically have a unit that plugs into the ECU to in a sense change it to 'mechanical'. that way you don't need to buy an m-TDI pump or anything special. and if your pump dies you can just buy another electronic TDI pump of the same model. would sure make swaps a breeze :wink: somethings like boost pressure sensing might be a good idea to plug in though... but could all be adapted in some sort of 'kit'.
watching this car REALLY makes me want to get my PD installed into something... :twisted:
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#10
by
Greasecar
on 21 Dec, 2007 09:03
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I found a couple of other PD in Mk II videos that were pretty cool too. I tried looking up that "Pop-Off Turbodiesel" but only came up with blow off valves. Must be some on demand tuning chip judging by the little toggle switch in the video. Much smaller than my VanAken box.
As far as I can tell the most important sensor to run a PD is the cam position sensor and accel pedal. For those of you reading that haven't looked into it, the PD injector is like a cam driven syringe with a solenoid check valve. When the piston raises the solenoid stays open to allow the injector to draw fuel off the fuel rail. Then the solenoid snaps shut to create the back pressure needed fo the injector to build pressure on the down stroke. I belive the solenoid can also be pulse modulated during the injection to control quantity and duration.
In short, the key to making the injector fire at all is the ability to control that solenoid at TDC and BDC at least. The MAF, fuel temp, Boost etc., etc. give the ECU all of the detail info to make the engine run well. VWmike and Tintin have looked into the code and pinout so they would know for sure what the bare minimum is but this is what I can assume on face value.
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#11
by
JunkcollectorJ
on 21 Dec, 2007 09:21
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If I do go the PD route I can always put the ALH into my maroon car once the 1.6 kicks the bucket.
...or you could sell the ALH, I bet I know someone who would buy it
Either swap will be awesome. If it was me I'd probably got the mtdi route (or etdi, since you have all the parts), then work on building and learning about the PD swap and put that into the maroon rabbit when that blows.
Looking forward to seeing whatever you end up doing!
J
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#12
by
Greasecar
on 08 Jan, 2008 15:46
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Little update:
Finally got some time this weekend to work on the project a bit. I pulled the old 1.6 gas engine and cleaned the bay up a bit.
Right now my plan is to drop in the PD motor because, well, it's more of a challenge and I have pretty much everything I need. I finished stripping the Bottom end and the block and crank are now at the machine shop. The block is BEW and I found a good low mileage BRM head and piston set to mate up to it.
I have the engine harness and hopefully I can use the gauge cluster and accel. pedal from my ALH Golf but I need to pick up an ECU and figure out what I other ins and outs I need. Right now it looks like :
Sensors-MAP
-MAF
-Fuel temp
-OXY
Output-N75
Hopefully the EGR can be eliminated but need to figure out if the intake flapper has any significant purpose other than smoother engine shut down. I have been trying to find other PD MK 1 or 2 swap build threads but so far no good. If anyone stumbles across something let me know.
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#13
by
cal
on 10 Jan, 2008 03:11
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#14
by
Greasecar
on 10 Jan, 2008 08:37
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Cal-
Thanks. Looks like a good start and one to add to the ALH builds (interesting approach to the front motor mount) hopefully there are some PD ones out there too.