'81 Rabbit not starting

[Jolly1977]

Bought an '81 rabbit off ebay for $600 with 1.6NA.  Body is in decent shape, interior is ugly, and has about 180k.  Seller claimed it had a rebuilt injection pump, and that the fuel system just needed to be primed and it would run.

Unfortunately I bought it before I knew anything about VW diesels.  Now I know that you the fuel system doesnt need priming....!  Just to give you an idea how shady this dude was, when I arrived at his house to pick it up, he was cleaning out the car and tried scurrying away unseen with 3 cans of ether he pulled from the back seat...  

Anyway, I can't figure out why it won't start (other that it was obviously abused) cant even get it to sputter, or spew smoke out the tail pipe.  The fuel in it has to be at least 15 to 16 months old, but I dont think that should have anything to do with it.  Is it possible the diesel has spoiled?

Glow plugs are getting voltage, but I can't tell how much current they're drawing because I dont have access to an ammeter that has that kind of capability.  If you pull a GP and connect it to the battery, it lights right up.  But if you turn the key to the glow position and then pull the GP immediately after the light goes out its not even hot.  And for some reason the relay takes about 90 to 120 seconds before cutting power to the GP's.  Is this typical?

I verified the position of the crank, cam, and injection pump to each other.   Everything seems to line up correctly; cam with both lobes up, all the marks on IP line up, while #1 is at TDC.  (I dont think either Haynes or Bentley indicates which cylinder is #1, so Im assuming the one closed to the front of the engine).  I haven't been able to acquire a dial indicator to check injection pump timing correctly but I have been able to visually see when the pump delivers fuel.  I marked the gear with an obvious mark that indicated the correct correlation to TDC of #1.  With my thumb on the fuel line to the #1 injector I could feel the fuel spirt out as I watched where the gear was.  Obviously this isn't the scientific way to do it, but it looks like the pump delivers fuel to #1 when the mark on the gear is at about 4' o'clock, which seems rather late.  I would of thought the IP should deliver fuel just before TDC.  Is it be possible that the timing could be that far off???  Or should I assume that something is messed up with either the rebuild or installation of the pump?

I appreciate any feedback, or at the very least a good recommendation of a lawyer I can use to get my money back!

[pariah]

check your grounds, check the thermo switch for the glowplugs, make sure your injectors are clean, check the fuel shutoff wiring, valve clearances, compression check .... i live in damp climate moisture in the fuel is not ideal they sell diesel fuel drier/injector cleaner that once i got mine going helped ALOT with cold starts..... my truck also sat for 4 years not running.... .... it could be a combo of small things but thoes are the things i did on my wild goose chase......

[rob76]

I was able to verify my glow plugs were working by putting my finger on the connector after they were on for about 30 seconds,  they get really hot to the touch. The one right behind the injector pump is hard to get to so I had my girlfriend stick her tiny hand up from underneath the pump to feel that one.
I have the fast glow plug system so they get hot within 7 seconds.  You might have the slow system which takes 30 seconds. What is the part number on your glow plug relay? See my post here about glow plugs http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10551  My glow plugs were staying on for 45 seconds, the temp sensor on the head was the culprit!  You can also test the glow plug circuit by measuring the voltage when the glow plugs are on. It should drop down to about 9volts since the resistance is about 0.2 ohms.  (That's for the fast system). I was able to measure the resistance of the glow plugs on my system using a $30 ammeter. The slow system draws 36 amps rather than 48 but I'm not sure of the resistance of the slow system.  Anyway the voltage should drop (on a fully charged battery) from 12.6 down to around 9 volts or so. If it's not dropping then it's not pulling current.

Do you have clear fuel lines near the injector pump? Are they full of fuel or air? Also, if you have bad compression then it won't start. I read you can also loosen the nut slightly on the injectors and see if fuel comes out of them. But be carefull!  Wear heavy gloves and eye protection. Apparently if diesel gets injected under your skin they have surgically remove the flesh around the wound.

[rob76]

Oh and in  regards to the cylinder order, Bentley does give a hint. Under the engine section in my manual he writes that the engine code (MF in my case) is inscribed on the block between the 3rd and 4th cylinder.  On mine it was found towards the drivers side so I think you are right in identifying #1 as being near the timing belt.

[blkboostedtruck]

if the brakes work properly! have someone pullstart you! thats what i have done to get few started that i have bought that have been sitting for a while!
some i have towed for a complete block before they start! also it works well when i can't get mine started in the dead of winter when i'm on job sites that i can't plug it in! Be carfull and good luck!
thanks Duane

[rob76]

Also, if you paid with paypal you culd open a dispute. If the auction claimed the engine was working and now it is not then you can open an "item not as described" claim. Not sure if this applies to ebay motors though. How did you pay for the car?

[pariah]

please dont have someone pullstart you... that cannot be a good idea ....

[rob76]

I think pullstarting could be done. just make sure you use proper chains so they don't snap and rip your throat out.

[blkboostedtruck]

A nylon strap works well! I keep a old 20' rigging strap in my 81 rabbit all the time!when you do it release the clutch slow so the motor turn over slowley at first ! if being towed behind a gasoline car use 2nd gear! it will work done it many times it will defanatly get the fuel primed up to the pump alot faster! and you wont burn out your starter and drain your battery and less wear on the wires too! and you will be closer to seeing what you need to get it fixed faster!and a relief that you know it runs!
Duane

[rob76]

I can also tell you this, my water seperator broke (I don't think you have one) and all my fuel ran out of my lines. I took the seperator out and patchedthe lines together. Still with empty lines the car started right up and ran fine. The fuel filter in the engine compartment must have still had fuel in it and there were tons of air bubbles going into the injector pump but it didn't run rough or anything. The air bubbles stopped after about 5 minutes or so. Most of the air was out in the first minute.

[Jolly1977]

Dont think im going to be pulling it around the block to try and start it...  If I knew that everything was working right, maybe then, but not when I have no clue whats wrong.  No sense in beating the crap out of it...

To answer the fuel line question: it has fuel and air (about 75% fuel) in the line that feeds the pump.  The pump is obviously at the lower end of the line so when I turn it over, I can see that it sucks fuel, not air, into the pump.  When I stop cranking it very slowly fills back up with fuel.  And when I pull the fuel supply lines to the injectors, fuel comes out when I turn it over, so I know the injectors are getting fuel.

When I turn on the flow plugs they dont get hot, but the ends of the them will get warm if I cycle them off and on a couple of times.  I did check the resistance on one plug, read about .04 ohms when cold, and about .12 when it was hot (tested by itself, out of the car), if I remember right.  And I did measure a voltage drop across the battery terminals, which indicated about 9 volts in a somewhat weak battery when the glow plugs were on.

I think the glow plugs might have something to do with it, I have this feeling they're just not putting out the heat they're suppose to.  Most likely though, I think its a fuel delivery/timing issue.  Im going to try rotating the pump gear in relation to the crank and cam position to see if I can at least get her to sputter...

[rob76]

The glow plugs should have about 1 ohm resistance when hot. The 4 of them in parallel then being 1/4 ohm. In my case it was about .2 ohm but that was after subtracting the resistance the unit shows when I just touch the two leads together with nothing in between them. I think my ammeter shows about 1/2 an ohm just by itself. Mine get hot enough that you can't keep your finger touching the end of it (that's attached to the bus bar) for more than about 5 seconds.

If fuel is getting into the cylinders... it shouldn't need anything more than some heat to ignite and then sputter and run badly. Remember these engines run due to compression alone. These engines can run away just due to their own crankcase blowby vapours!
 
If your glow plugs are hot (and you should only need one or two working to at least get some sputtering) you should check the compression. If you have no compression then you'll need to at least re-ring it.

[blkboostedtruck]

I don't think you understand! if you pull start the car the pistons will creat enough heat through compression and the fuel will purg enough pressure that it will start to run! glow plugs are just for assisting in the first start up! the diesel motor is not like a gasoline engine! so it's not a good idea to mess with the timing if you don't have the correct timing tools and know what to set the timing at! nothing like a distributer on a gas engine the adjustment is too precise!
 To me it sound like it did run at one time! the guy you bought it from just did not keep up with maitinance like replace the battery so because the battery was low he would spray in with ether! witch is bad! it will damage glow plugs and and thats why it would not start for him because he does not know what he was doing! I see it all the time! now everything you explained tells me that it has lost it's prime, glo plugs are  toast, battery is weak! now if you don't have those 3 things in good order! you will not get it started! the only way is to pull start you already been cranking the motor over with the starter! right?
so if any damage been done it already has! you can't hurt it any more by pull starting it! you can either keep scratching your head trying to figure out why it don't run by never getting it to crank over enough! or you can pull start it and narrow down why it wont start on it's own but at least you can find out that it does run!!
the min. battery i use is a 1000 cranking amp. battery because i live in cold climate! so it don't hurt to buy the biggest cranking battery you can buy! so if you don't use my advice then start throwing alot of money at it it should run one of these years!
Duane

[Jolly1977]

Ok ok ok...  I'll try the pull start method...  Anything is worth a shot at this point.  

I just have this hunch that the fuel timing is way off.  By visual observation, I was able to determine that the IP is injecting fuel way past TDC of the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke.  So any fuel that is vaporized at that point is getting pushed out on the exhaust stroke.  But I dont see how a rebuilt injection pump could be that out of wack.  Or the engine is totally shot and the idiot I bought it from just lied...

[blkboostedtruck]

if in dought and need some text book info down load this file! it's a PDF file!
 when your getting pulled around the block push the accerator pedal down like your trying to floor it ! have the cold start lever pulled out also! might take some time to get all the air out but it should work! do make sure the fuel  stop solenoid is working prior to pull starting! thats the one wire that hooks to the I.P.! take a jumper wire off the positive side of battery and listen for a (click) that means it's working! and your good to go see if it will pull start!

http://www.ziptar.com/pro_train/protraining_diesel_77-83.zip

 get back to us after you attempt these new tatics!
 Duane
 UPDATE sat. oct 13= haven't heard from you ? has anything helped? is it running yet?
 update us please
 thanks Duane