Montego perkins prima plunger - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Montego perkins prima plunger by xud9te on 09 Aug, 2007 14:13
• Hi,
  
  I have been having trouble getting an 11mm plunger to work today.  
  
  I have to admit I havent been near my diesel for a while, and have kind of forgotten if it is important to orient the camplate (and therefore the plunger) correctly with reference to the engine timing.  
  
  The camplate can be fitted in one of two positions 180 degrees apart.  I assume that it will only work in one position.
  
  I am thinking now that i have fitted the camplate 180 deg out and when that didnt start the engine, I rotated the camplate 360 degrees back to the first position instead of 180 in some lapse of concentration (all I can think of..).  I did not note the orientation of the original camplate before i removed it- Beginners error.  
  
  I have tried starting at 'both' positions and there is some fuel at the injectors, but no hint of trying to start.  Are there any other considerations?  Nothing else has been changed bar the plunger, the pump is good and was running in the car with 9mm plunger two days ago.  I just though I would ask before removing the pump again and turning the camplate again!!  
  
  
  Any ideas would be appreciated!!
• #1 by zukgod1 on 09 Aug, 2007 14:19
• I cant install the cam anywhere but right where it's supose to be on my pump.
  
  Do you have pics?
  
  
  dan
• #2 by Benjamin on 10 Aug, 2007 08:57
• Do you use the original camplate?
  
  Keep in mind a startup is never easy to do, use an electric pump.
  
  i remember you have a vnt turbo, are he vanes open enough, its possible the vanes are closed and the engine will never run becaouse it cant breath, been there also  :wink:
  
  Do you have researchenough about the plunger swap, did you took the lda off or not? is the O around the plunger on his place?
  
  Did you changed the OUT bolt on your pump?
  
  with 180° wrong i remember i had a PSA engine running but very bad, with just a little degrees wrong its not possible (alltough its not simple to mount it wrong with those engines)
  
  If the car is off, and you turn the key over, do you head the pump solonoid licking in the head from the distrubitor?
  
  Greetz, Benjamin
  
  Greetz, Benjamin
• #3 by zukgod1 on 10 Aug, 2007 14:22
• Quote from: "libbybapa"

  The camplate can be installed 180° out.  IIRC the pin that engages the plunger foot needs to line up with the woodruff key cutout in the drive shaft.
  
  Andrew

  
  
  Good info!!!!
  
  Glad I havent re assembled my pump yet..
  
  
  dan
• #4 by xud9te on 14 Aug, 2007 04:35
• NICE ONE ANDREW!!
  
  Thats what I was searching for.  I eventually had to go steal my friends pump which is on the car now, but I would have still have had to open the pump to check, now i dont!!
  
  I couldnt find this info in the manual.
  
  Problem turned out to be a couple of things in addition to the 'possible' plunger prob.  I had timed the engine and managed to clamp the glowplug feed wire behind the starter when re-installing, also I had lost the pump woodruff key (hole in my bloody overall pocket.. grrr) and made a new one from a broken centre punch (hard metal) but it seems to have been chewed, so the timing was possibly slightly off..
  
  Anyway, back on track now, so will re-fit the big plunger pump this week.
  
  Have to say to go back to a standard pump compared to a mildly tweaked one that has been fiddled with enough to get it just right is a severely obvious difference!!
  
  Thanks for the help.
• #5 by xud9te on 12 Sep, 2007 15:17
• Hello again,
  
  I thought i'd add to this thread to see if anyone has ideas about the problem I am still having with the 11mm pump.
  
  I re-installed it all today and found that there is almost no fuel at the lines.  I changed the stop solenoid for a good one, still the same.
  
  I have used the original IDI delivery nozzles in place of the DI ones on the 11mm head.  The camplate is IDI also.  Orientation is correct!!
  
  When the delivery nozzle is removed, there is fuel at the port, but not as much as i'd have thought.
  
  I tried refitting the DI delivery nozzles, as these have a lower spring pressure, strange, as I understood that they should have had a higher spring pressure, and more fuel flowed than with the IDI nozzles, but again not as much as I'd have liked to see.
  
  With the central drain screw removed from the middle of the pump head, the fuel is squirted out as one would expect.  What could possibly be causing the restriction then?
  
  The control collar is corectly seated, the throttle position and the stop lever seem fine.  
  
  Any ideas?  What else can I check?  Surely the DI plunger is not inherently unsuitable for this pump.  
  
  Has anyone else used this plunger?  Do I remember a red golf also in scotland with this setup on an mTDI?
  
  Thanks,
  Greg
• #6 by xud9te on 12 Sep, 2007 15:23
• Benjamin,
  
  Just re-read your post above, I actually havent changed over the OUT bolt to the one from the DI pump.  I thought that the OUT bolt was a restriction in overall flow through the pump and therefore a pressure regulator for internal pressure?  Would this affect the starting?
  
  I have an electric lift pump, but it seems to have stopped working.  I thought that as long as there was fuel at the out port, it should all be primed?
  
  Greg
• #7 by xud9te on 12 Sep, 2007 15:49
• Andrew,
  
  They are both right rotating pumps (clockwise looking at pulley):
  
  XUD:     VE4/ 9F2250R472
  PRIMA:  VE4/11F2250R413
  
  The prima plunger does have extra holes in it though, although I guessed that they are for pre-injection, pilot injection for noise and NOX.  They shouldnt affect the overall running.  This is why I guess that the DI delivery nozzles were softer?
• #8 by snakemaster on 12 Sep, 2007 19:13
• i have fitted a few of those prima heads and cam plates, to vw pumps and no prob hand priming pump to fill the injection pump , then crank then you will see the fuel spurting up , and wham bam , have you got the max fuel screw set ?
• #9 by xud9te on 12 Sep, 2007 19:31
• Hi,
  
  I set the fuel screw to roughly whare it was and then tried turning it in a bit more as well.  Maybe not enough though?  I will try and screw it right in and see if I can get her to go...
  
  Did you ever fit one to an IDI injector setup?  Did you use the DI delivery valves or the IDI ones?
  
  Cheers!
• #10 by xud9te on 13 Sep, 2007 09:58
• Well, got it running, but it sounds awful.  I am not sure what the problem was, but a strip and rebuild of the pump worked, I can only assume that the stop lever had moved a bit on the last re-assembly causing it to lose fuel, really cant see any other reason.
  
  When it is running it sounds very tappy.  I tested each injector, none solved the noise.  Timing the pump lost some of the diesel knock but did not change the tapping.  It seems to be coming from the injectors and not the pump (using a stethoscope).
  
  I am now assuming that the pre-injection part of the 11mm plunger is causing this noise....  
  
  The other problem is that it wont rev.  The engine pulls quite cleanly up to about 3000 rpm, and then stops accelerating.  There is no smoke, and turning in the max fuel screw as far as possible did not cause any runaway with an initial 1000rpm idle.
  
  All this suggests to me that the engine is still not getting enough fuel.  It seems to be getting it at the right time (as there is no smoke) but just not enough.  
  
  I am convinced the pump is assembled correctly now, and can only assume that this style of plunger just does not work with the IDI engine?
  
  Can anyone suggest something else to try?  Tintin?
  
  Cheers
  Greg
• #11 by Mark(The Miser)UK on 13 Sep, 2007 10:07
• Take valve cover off. Totally unscrew injector line at #1 ease end off so no high pressure possible... crank engine and see if pulse [dribble of diesel coincides with cam lobes @#1 compression stroke... Requires 2 people or a wratchet on crank.... :idea:
• #12 by xud9te on 13 Sep, 2007 13:14
• Mr Miser,
  
  Hadnt thought of that.  I was working out how to do it with the timing marks and the starter, your way seems much easier!
  
  Although, comparing the two plungers, the distribution holes are aligned exactly, as are the ports in the pump head itself.  So I cannot see how the fuel could be delivered to the injector at any other time.  The plungers are also indexed exactly the same to the camplate itself, and the two camplates have the peak lift at the same time.  I can only assume that the extra hole on the DI plunger is allowing fuel to go somewhere it shouldnt?
  
  Will try the fuel vs cam timing idea, but I assume as it was actually and idling running OK with NO smoke, just the random extra tapping and no power, that the fuel is getting sent to the correct inj at the correct time, just not enough fuel?
  
  Has anyone on here fitted the 11mm Prima plunger to an IDI before?
  
  thanks
  greg
• #13 by snakemaster on 13 Sep, 2007 14:11
• i had to do the gov mod , and ramp the lda to get it to go beter tdi, the prima heads ( early one singel stage    later one 2 stage injector ) but dont think the head is any difrant , you may have to set your idi injectors to a higher pop ? 160 bar maby  this may sort it
• #14 by xud9te on 14 Sep, 2007 05:19
• Hi,
  
  Injectors are already 175bar as standard fitment on my engine fitted with Merc '265' nozzles.  The aneroid setup, starwheel and governor were all almost maxed out previously with the 9mm pump, and I still gave it more fuel on the max fuel adjustment with the 11mm.
  
  What else would the injector stage thing do?  Would it make sense to try and shim my injectors to give even higher pressure?  I assume that they are opening on the pre-injection (hence the tapping which must be the first little squirt which is quite advanced in timing terms), and staying open through the main injection.  It looks like two squirts when the delivery valve is off and just watching it come out the port.
  
  Even still, this should just mean that the engine was getting more fuel, not less.  Maybe, all I am getting is the pre-injection?  If it opens the IDI injector early it may be just trying to close again when the main squirt comes which is then partially blocked by the closing inj/pressure wave, forcing it back down through the port and lining up with the next cyl pre-inj, therby losing most or all of the main squirt?  
  
  OK maybe I am overthinking this now!!!
  
  I just want to get it going well!!  9mm with almost no rev limit and everything maxed out to suit a low smoke level, GT2025V, front mount big cooler, ported and polished head and lift pump and all good and well, good enough to easliy pass 306 Rallye at almost any speed (same car as mine but 2.0 16v petrol, 160 bhp) and keep up with 2.0 turbo impreza from 30 to 110 mph.  
  
  I really would like a bit MORE though....  
  
  Greg