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Author Topic: ~My 91 GLI to 1.6TD conversion build up~  (Read 100593 times)

Reply #165November 11, 2008, 12:55:36 am

Quantum TD

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« Reply #165 on: November 11, 2008, 12:55:36 am »
Quote from: "Smokey Eddy"
 
DO not re-torque. Sweet jesus. Perhaps check them? don't go to 95...
just my 2 cents.


Yeah, here's where people get a bit nervous, and torque specs get a bit screwy. In the ARP instructions, there should be 2 different torque specs based on what lube you use.

The bolt specs for the OEM stretch bolts is based on a thin film of light oil (usually applied to the bolts at the factory).

In the latter case, I've often gone over the bolts with my torque wrench (after all the torquing procedures), and I consistently get a final value of about 105-110 ft-lbs, and I occasionally torque them a bit more if I feel the need, but that's with TTY and I'd feel if it was approaching the danger zone. It's extremely frustrating that VW does not provide an actual final torque value like many other manufacturers, especially since we all KNOW that VW didn't even follow their own stupid instructions when they built the cars in the first place (really did they 'drive' every motor 1000 miles and retorque, or implement a practice that would be equivalent? I doubt it).

In any event, how do my observed final torque value compare to the ARP specs? I'm not sure, because I don't know what lube you used, and how it compares to the stock figures that I've noted over the years. I personally think 95 ft-lbs is a safe place to start and see what you get. My sentiment is this: if you have to replace the gasket anyways, why no try to retorque it and see what happens. My rationale in this case is as follows:

1) I'm assuming the head was straight and crack free when installed, the same goes for the block.

2) It sounds like the motor hasn't even been run much, and, by all accounts, has not "overheated". It showns symptoms of an overheat, but the motor does not seem to have been overheated. So, the head is not warped, and tightening the bolts will only work to seal the gasket better between two flat surfaces.

3) Aside from the one time when the owner hit 20lbs of boost(!), it really hasn't been run too hard.

So,  given those factors, it seems that the only possible reasons for the blown HG so early in the game is either

1) Faulty gasket: I kinda doubt this one

2) Too much boost: a distinct possibility. But if the gasket were properly torqued, one would assume that the gasket could hold up for that brief moment of high boost.

or
3) The HG was never torqued down enough, and the extra boost that one time was enough to blow it, OR, it wasn't tight enough for even normal operation (we'd have to know if it was puking coolant BEFORE it was pushed to 20 PSI).

Given those parameters, I'd speculate option 3: the HG wasn't torqued down enough: whether that be for normal operation, or high boost levels. Especially when 53willys noted that it would idle all day and not boil over, but when run, it would spew. This indicates a excessive boost blow-by into the coolant system.

A little seepage and retorque is fine, so long as you are certain that there are not other problems in the head/block at noted by Andrew.  Sooner or later, you'll have to pull the head. My view is, might as well try to see if you CAN'T get it to run right with the fiber gasket that's on there, and have the MLS as a safe back-up.

Just my $0.02

Reply #166November 11, 2008, 01:10:28 am

53 willys

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« Reply #166 on: November 11, 2008, 01:10:28 am »
well I dont think it was me and installer error...I did this HG torque sequence BY THE BOOK...its not hard...I have done ton and tons od Deutz 4cyl diesel HG's at my other job...I know how it works..

I followed ARP's TQ specs from the studs install sheet....
80ftlbs WITH ARP moly lube....the only thing I did different was I went to 85ftlbs....I highly doubt my extra 5ftlbs is what killed the HG..
I kinda think it has been leaking from the get go.....I blew the one hose I did not replace and I blew the top off my heater core too!!! this was on the first test drive...

my TQ wrench is working too....it's a BRAND new digital snap-on wrench....it's a flipping $700 wrench!!! it better be right!

Reply #167November 11, 2008, 12:57:27 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #167 on: November 11, 2008, 12:57:27 pm »
Quote from: "53 willys"
I followed ARP's TQ specs from the studs install sheet....
80ftlbs WITH ARP moly lube....the only thing I did different was I went to 85ftlbs....I highly doubt my extra 5ftlbs is what killed the HG..
I kinda think it has been leaking from the get go.....I blew the one hose I did not replace and I blew the top off my heater core too!!! this was on the first test drive...

my TQ wrench is working too....it's a BRAND new digital snap-on wrench....it's a flipping $700 wrench!!! it better be right!


Yeah. I doubt it was a manufacture error, or an installation error. My suspicion is that you had too much boost from the start. Are/were you running boost at idle? That's the only way I could see the HG blowing from the start, unless you had the boost too high, and really got into it from the first start-up.

It may not have been excessive boost by most standards, but if the bolts could have used a little extra torque, and your just went beyond what the bolts could handle, then perhaps it was "the perfect storm". I'm still not entirely sold on the ARP torque specs. If I'm not mistaken, they use the same specs for gasser and diesel heads don't they? Or are the bolts diesel-specific with their own torque values?

Anyway, good luck on the MLS retrofit. Too bad you didn't have a hydro block and head. I guess it would be a bit easier. It seems like someone here did the MLS retrofit and used silicone or something to block the oil retrun passage. It was holding up after several months. I'd love to see an aftermarket manufacturer make the MLS for the older diesels. Hell, I'd spend $50-100 just for the piece of mind.

Good luck!

Reply #168November 11, 2008, 01:26:42 pm

zukgod1

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« Reply #168 on: November 11, 2008, 01:26:42 pm »
Quote from: "Quantum TD"
Hell, I'd spend $50-100 just for the piece of mind.

Good luck!


Wouldn't we all?

The MLS gasket even getting a good deal is $60.00 and thats the AAZ gasket so to have one made to our specs for the solid lifter block would be closer to $150.00 I bet and we would have to have prob 20 made at a min.
Someone started a tread a while ago on this very subject.

I think Kinetic (sp?) will make just about anything you want but dayum!! $$$
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #169November 11, 2008, 02:21:17 pm

53 willys

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~My 91 GLI to 1.6TD conversion build up~
« Reply #169 on: November 11, 2008, 02:21:17 pm »
Quote from: "zukgod1"
Quote from: "Quantum TD"
Hell, I'd spend $50-100 just for the piece of mind.

Good luck!


Wouldn't we all?

The MLS gasket even getting a good deal is $60.00 and thats the AAZ gasket so to have one made to our specs for the solid lifter block would be closer to $150.00 I bet and we would have to have prob 20 made at a min.
Someone started a tread a while ago on this very subject.

I think Kinetic (sp?) will make just about anything you want but dayum!! $$$

that was me who started that thread....

it was a 150 gasket min!!!!
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=118528&highlight=#118528

Reply #170November 11, 2008, 02:26:37 pm

zukgod1

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« Reply #170 on: November 11, 2008, 02:26:37 pm »
I knew it sounded familiar..
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #171November 11, 2008, 02:29:23 pm

53 willys

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« Reply #171 on: November 11, 2008, 02:29:23 pm »
Quote from: "zukgod1"
I knew it sounded familiar..

if it was 20 min....I would do it myself and then just sell them myself....but I cant front that kinda cash........

Reply #172November 11, 2008, 02:30:54 pm

zukgod1

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« Reply #172 on: November 11, 2008, 02:30:54 pm »
$13500.00 for 150 gaskets  :shock:

Good thing I'm sitting down.

Look at your cell phone Mark.
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #173November 11, 2008, 02:32:59 pm

53 willys

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« Reply #173 on: November 11, 2008, 02:32:59 pm »
I think I found out what I am gonna do for the MLS mod....
forum member "AudiVWguy" sent me a PM telling me how he modded his MLS...to me his mod seems like it would be the most reliable of all the mods...


here are his instructions..
Quote from: "AudiVWguy"
I've got the same setup. My concept was to use a piece of the original fiber gasket to use in the hole. My thinking was its a neutral material for thermal expansion. I made it fit extremely precise. The material can be filed for a perfect fit. The next thought was to put a light coat of oil resistance gasket sealer using a toothpick. They make some that has good temp resistance.
If I was to do it again I would try the sealer they use on the aluminum oil pans on VW's, could me superior stuff. Anyway, its important to let it dry some, maybe 1 hour plus, cause its important to have it semi cured but not enough so it can still squish out and seat perfectly. Torque the head and make sure you use ARP's special grease, otherwise they said different lube will have a different torque specs.








[/quote]

Reply #174November 11, 2008, 02:54:18 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #174 on: November 11, 2008, 02:54:18 pm »
Yeah. I think I'd rather pay $90. Maybe someone should email FEBI or Reinz and give them a head's up.

Reply #175November 11, 2008, 03:00:35 pm

zukgod1

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« Reply #175 on: November 11, 2008, 03:00:35 pm »
Another + on the MLS gasket is you can drill the block and head for the steam holes that are not there for the reg fiber gasket.
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #176November 11, 2008, 03:14:18 pm

53 willys

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~My 91 GLI to 1.6TD conversion build up~
« Reply #176 on: November 11, 2008, 03:14:18 pm »
Quote from: "zukgod1"
Another + on the MLS gasket is you can drill the block and head for the steam holes that are not there for the reg fiber gasket.

dan can we do this with the block in car still put together??

Reply #177November 11, 2008, 03:15:38 pm

53 willys

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« Reply #177 on: November 11, 2008, 03:15:38 pm »
Quote from: "libbybapa"
I've had the same thought before.  I'd be sorely tempted to enlarge the return hole so that the seam is not in the middle of the coolant channel.  I would then cut the plug to fit.

Andrew

so your saying you like this style mod...but think the hole in the fiber plug needs to be enlarged??

Reply #178November 11, 2008, 03:25:42 pm

zukgod1

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« Reply #178 on: November 11, 2008, 03:25:42 pm »
Quote from: "53 willys"
Quote from: "zukgod1"
Another + on the MLS gasket is you can drill the block and head for the steam holes that are not there for the reg fiber gasket.

dan can we do this with the block in car still put together??


I don't see why not Mark.

Would just run the pistons to TDC and plug the coolant ports around it then use a grease filled drill bit.
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #179November 11, 2008, 03:27:15 pm

zukgod1

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« Reply #179 on: November 11, 2008, 03:27:15 pm »
Quote from: "libbybapa"
Not exactly what I was saying.  What I meant was that I would have more faith in it if the large hole in the metal gasket was made even bigger so that the perimeter of it extended around the coolant channel in the head and block.  Then if the plug was made to fit closely it would be a complete seal of the coolant hole rather than have the seam of the two gaskets run through the middle of the coolant hole.  I don't know if there is enough gasket between the coolant channel and the cylinder for that, tho.

Andrew


I get what your saying and that makes good sense. I wonder though even if there was enough material there to remove if the MLS and fiber would compress differently causing un even pressure on the surrounding gasket surfaces?
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

 

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