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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: BellCityDubber on July 04, 2006, 07:36:49 pm
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Okay, so from what I've seen, water injection is used in place of an intercooler, and from the looks of things can be much easier to do than bend tubing and attempting to fit a rather large intercooler...
so...
can someone kinda give me the basics of water injection? I've seen hillfolk's setup and I'm intrigued...
I'd like to try and adapt my own solution sometime in the next little while, as I dont think I'd really be all that lucky with fitting an intercooler.
is there anyone out there that can aid me in this process?
TIA
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waterinjection (WI) is not in place of an intercooler (IC), you can also use a IC an WI. NOS is also a cooling system on diesels.
we try to get down the intake air temp, i think WI is only realy good when you drive on high turboboost!
My opinion is, try to get a pump wich gives enough pressure, you realy need this +100psi, but please try to go for a 150psi pump. You need this to have a goos mist, the water cools the air...
the negative thing about WI is you need to refuel the water/alcohol mix.
You need the right nozzle to, if you inject to much water, you get a waterbore (i thought this is the right word?), its not good for the engine!!!
Can someone explain the chemical, what do the alcohol do?
Do the Alcohol burn as feul, or do the alcohol helps to burn more diesel? I thought water is the best cooler...
I almost have my WI kit from Coolingmist on ebay.com, its realy cheap kit. anyway, its for my first try. When this is installed i also can say how much temperature this will cool down my EGT's.
Greetz, Benjamin
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For diy water injection check here http://transportation.hackaday.com/entry/1234000393047637/
the reason for using 50/50 water/alchol/methanol is that even though water takes in the most heat it dose it quite slowly where as alc/methanol do it a lot faster so 50/50 mix the best of both worlds
also the diy system lookes like it injects with quite a low pressure but it dose it before the turbo...any comments?
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waterinjection (WI) is not in place of an intercooler (IC), you can also use a IC an WI. NOS is also a cooling system on diesels.
we try to get down the intake air temp, i think WI is only realy good when you drive on high turboboost!
My opinion is, try to get a pump wich gives enough pressure, you realy need this +100psi, but please try to go for a 150psi pump. You need this to have a goos mist, the water cools the air...
the negative thing about WI is you need to refuel the water/alcohol mix.
You need the right nozzle to, if you inject to much water, you get a waterbore (i thought this is the right word?), its not good for the engine!!!
Can someone explain the chemical, what do the alcohol do?
Do the Alcohol burn as feul, or do the alcohol helps to burn more diesel? I thought water is the best cooler...
I almost have my WI kit from Coolingmist on ebay.com, its realy cheap kit. anyway, its for my first try. When this is installed i also can say how much temperature this will cool down my EGT's.
Greetz, Benjamin
Yes, I intend on raising my boost a bit more (I'm @ ~1 bar), but I'd also like to be able to cool things down a bit as well, and from the looks of things, I think I can handle doing a WI system over an IC system, there would be benefits from running both, correct?
I dont mind having to refuel the Alc/h20 mix, that's not a problem... just an inconvienience as it is nature of the beast
I think ssray was right when he said
the reason for using 50/50 water/alchol/methanol is that even though water takes in the most heat it dose it quite slowly where as alc/methanol do it a lot faster so 50/50 mix the best of both worlds
as far as pressure, What is hillfolk using as a pump and nozzle for his WI setup? (I'm going to try and look for the link)
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there would be benefits from running both, correct?
i neve did it, but when the air is cold, you cant make it more colder... anyway, you can't just put to much water in it, so in some instals there are benefits, but you dont need a big IC when using WI.
You can get a good pump wich can run on water (and even dry!) for just 70USD.
I bought my a whole kit for just a good 200USD, its not that big...
Normaly tomorow she will come, so i can give a update tomorow, but she will be installed over more time, i first gonna do my turbo upgrade wich is also coming with the post, damn those shippingtimes are to long :P
Greetz, Benjamin
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Some popular misconceptions out there that get passed around a lot - I will address what I know about.
50/50 water-methanol doesn't cool the intake charge as well as straight water. Water absorbs more heat than methanol as it goes from liquid to vapor. Water has the highest latent heat of evaporation this side of Mercury, which wouldn't be good to inject.
WI or W/AI *can* be used in place of an intercooler. Been done thousands of times, will be done thousands more. Intercoolers are good things, but for the cost and complexity in certain applications, it just isn't always viable alternative. An intercooler is a good thing, in and of itself, but there are drawbacks to large front mount intercoolers (pressure drop, increased lag, heat soak at slow speeds or in stop & go traffic, etc). We generally see intake temps drop 60-100 degrees F.
Another HUGE benefit of water and water-methanol injection is reduced EGTs. On overfueled Cummins/Powerstrokes, etc. we generally see 200-250 degree F drop in EGTs. More has been seen, but that is typical.
With a mixture of alcohol (we prefer methanol) there is a definite power increase. The alcohol is a fuel and burnsin the chamber, working a sa catalyst for the diesel, burning it more quickly and completely. Allows for more power from the same amount of fuel and helps to reduce EGTs as well.
Injecting pre-turbo can be argued all over the internet. It *will* eventually erode the impeller blades. Injecting before the turbo also does bad things for atomization. If a turbo compacts air together by flinging it to the outer wall, what do you thing it will do to small droplets of water that have a lot more inertia than air?
You can make your own home-made system and see benefits. It has been done for a very long time and will continue to do so. However, you will use a lot more fluid and get much less benefit that a system that is designed and engineered to atomize a water-methanol mixture with custom nozzles and controllers to proportionally inject water methanol for varying conditions.
Anyone interested in a Snow Performance kit or having more questions, feel free to call me. I would be glad to tailor any of our Diesel Stage 1,2 or 3 kits to your particular engine setup.
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This is great stuff guys
keep the info comming.... I'd like to get as many people talking about WI W/AI and others just to get an idea of where to go and what to do
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ill post my link to my setup,but its sooo easy,people try to over engineer it,and it doesnt have to be complicated,i wish more people would do it,you probably could whip up your own "kit" in an hour with parts laying around your garage
get an old a2 washer bottle with the pump installed on it,hook a hose to it and restrict the flow with an old carb jet,or that new "jet"im using now
just put in the air filter intake pipe,dont worry about atmosation too much,the turbo will take care of that
i use blue washer fluid,and sometimes i cut that stuff anywhere from 25 to 50 percent with water
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4345
thats the new "jet"
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3724
heres the water injection link
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Ahh Hillfolk... I've been waiting for you to chime in, I've admired your setup and such from afar for a while now... I've been tuning my diesel on a shoestring budget as I'm a automotive student
(on a side note, I'm the only vw guy... let alone the ONLY diesel guy in a class full of ford and chev V8 guys)
most of the modifications I want to do to this diesel have to be either free, cheap or stolen ;) <jk>
Now I have a few questions that have been brewing in my head...
How is the atomization; has it effected your impeller fins at all?
How long have you been running it?
What sort of jets should I use; do you have any recommendations?
It would be connected to a switch, correct?
What's the use cycle like?
When should it be engaged and for how long?
could it be wired up to a switch mounted on the IP so when the throttle's down, it'll kick in?
just some questions and an idea thrown in there.
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im also very interested in the jet sizing and for what amount of boost?
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On a turbo diesel, we can use anywhere between 25-50%(!) of the fuel quantity. And that is with a super-finely atomized mixture. Injecting pre-turbo destroys the atomization quality.
Think about it - if you have tiny droplets and send them into the spinning impeller, they will hit the blade, droplets running into one another, creating larger droplets, then be flung into the outside housing wall, droplets again running into one another making larger droplets that are harder to for the air to carry and distribute evenly (air easily turns sharp corners, water doesn't - relatively speaking), and with large droplets, you have much, much, much less surface area, so you get less evaporative cooling, etc etc.
It works, but if you are injecting a fixed amount, and pre turbo, you aren't getting anywhere near the improvement you can and you are using much more fluid to do less in the process.
For a 100hp 1.6 or 1.9td, I would recommend a 100ml/min or a 175ml/min nozzle. For a 150hp TD it would be in the 225-375ml/min nozzle range, with slightly reduced pump pressure (we normally run 150psi).
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Ahh Hillfolk... I've been waiting for you to chime in, I've admired your setup and such from afar for a while now... I've been tuning my diesel on a shoestring budget as I'm a automotive student
(on a side note, I'm the only vw guy... let alone the ONLY diesel guy in a class full of ford and chev V8 guys)
most of the modifications I want to do to this diesel have to be either free, cheap or stolen ;) <jk>
Now I have a few questions that have been brewing in my head...
How is the atomization; has it effected your impeller fins at all?
How long have you been running it?
What sort of jets should I use; do you have any recommendations?
It would be connected to a switch, correct?
What's the use cycle like?
When should it be engaged and for how long?
could it be wired up to a switch mounted on the IP so when the throttle's down, it'll kick in?
just some questions and an idea thrown in there.
um ive been running this basic setup for like 2 maybe almost 3 years now,somethin like that
my ol garrett compressor side looked fine,no erosion or anything
do ya have an old carburetor laying around from anything?even a lawnmower? so you can steal some jets
i think the orig jet i used was like an .050 hole
did you see my new"jet"?
you could hook it to a psi switch,or wot switch,or a combo of both
but i just have a button taped to the shifter knob
i activate it almost any time i floor it,or my boost is over 5-10 psi
ive held it on as long as ive had my foot to the floor,i dont think ive floored it for more than 20 seconds though(um 14.1-2-3 seconds in 1/4,doing 95+)
i dunno if id want it hooked up to just a wot switch,cause you can wot and not have boost
i sorta like tha manual button i got
i made the wires loong,so i can untape it from the shifter,and retape it to the steering wheel for the drags,its a pita to hit the button and shift,i learned fast at the drags
you sound like a perfect candidate for my setup(starving student)
mines free if ya got stuff in the garage,or real cheap
a carb jet,some tubing,an a2 washer bottle,and washer fluid+you are there
screw paying 300 bucks,so it"atomizes more finely"
you dont even need a carb jet really,solder a piece of(guage tubing) 1/8 inch copper tube shut+drill a small hole+make it larger until its what you need
actually,i got vw return line hooked to that 1/8 copper,then another piece of rubber,then into my new jet
the new jet"flows the same" as before,because i think the copper tubing is the restriction
mine doubles in value when i fill the washer bottle with blue stuff for a buck
pretty hard for water to get flung to the sides,when its being drawn in anyways
i "tested" the hydrolock capabilities one night,i was doin like 60 in top gear,like 5 psi,,well the engine started missing after like 10 seconds of holding on the button steady,so its pretty safe
even if it isnt an efficient setup,washer fluid is a dollar,it wont break the bank,so what if you even use 2x as much to get the same power as a "kit"?
i romp it hard,and i do 400 miles each week just for work alone ,and i use like 2/3 maybe 3/4(severe beating) of a gallon a week
then ive driven 500 miles to ny,and barely used it, its all hiway
i heard somewhere that an "average" is like 1 gallon every 1000 miles i dunno
hope this post isnt too run on,and is readable,lol
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i heard running water injection before an intercooler is bad? supposed to build up in the bottom or something...does the water injection work good enough to run no intercooler hillfolk'r? or are you also using an intercooler?
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sindce yesterday i got my kit with a 150psi pump :D
i ordered a 300 an 600cc nozzle.
How can i know i push to much water in the engine??????
I try to take some pics today
Greetz, Benjamin
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i heard running water injection before an intercooler is bad? supposed to build up in the bottom or something...does the water injection work good enough to run no intercooler hillfolk'r? or are you also using an intercooler?
This sounds a lot like the problems they used to run into when they turbocharged and intercooled carburated gas engines. If the carb was draw-through (which means carb, then turbo, then intercooler) the fuel could condense and pool up in the intercooler. The way they got around it was to go turbo, then intercooler, then carb. I'm not sure it applies here or not. :?
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If the carb was draw-through (which means carb, then turbo, then intercooler) the fuel could condense and pool up in the intercooler
this is a timebomb!
i think greggearhead is very right with his theories
Greetz, Benjamin
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I wouldn't worry too much about the water pooling in the intercooler (unless you spray with no boost). The added heat + airflow from boost will definitely help keep the 'moist' air from condensing.
If you are spraying too much into your system, then yes its quite possible that the fluid could pool up into your intercooler and pose some serious problems down the line.
I wonder if the % alcohol in the blue washer fluid would erode aluminum... something to think about...
hillfolk' has the right idea about only spraying with boost, and at WOT. he keeps his setup real simple that way. Only problem is if the driver screws up and sprays without boost...
For an atomizing jet, why not get one of those lawn sprinkler tips? the ones that have the special misting nozzles. I think they would do a great job pre-turbo and not really have to worry about damaging pressures.
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um ive been running this basic setup for like 2 maybe almost 3 years now,somethin like that
my ol garrett compressor side looked fine,no erosion or anything
do ya have an old carburetor laying around from anything?even a lawnmower? so you can steal some jets
i think the orig jet i used was like an .050 hole
did you see my new"jet"?
you could hook it to a psi switch,or wot switch,or a combo of both
but i just have a button taped to the shifter knob
i activate it almost any time i floor it,or my boost is over 5-10 psi
ive held it on as long as ive had my foot to the floor,i dont think ive floored it for more than 20 seconds though(um 14.1-2-3 seconds in 1/4,doing 95+)
i dunno if id want it hooked up to just a wot switch,cause you can wot and not have boost
i sorta like tha manual button i got
i made the wires loong,so i can untape it from the shifter,and retape it to the steering wheel for the drags,its a pita to hit the button and shift,i learned fast at the drags
you sound like a perfect candidate for my setup(starving student)
mines free if ya got stuff in the garage,or real cheap
a carb jet,some tubing,an a2 washer bottle,and washer fluid+you are there
screw paying 300 bucks,so it"atomizes more finely"
you dont even need a carb jet really,solder a piece of(guage tubing) 1/8 inch copper tube shut+drill a small hole+make it larger until its what you need
actually,i got vw return line hooked to that 1/8 copper,then another piece of rubber,then into my new jet
the new jet"flows the same" as before,because i think the copper tubing is the restriction
mine doubles in value when i fill the washer bottle with blue stuff for a buck
pretty hard for water to get flung to the sides,when its being drawn in anyways
i "tested" the hydrolock capabilities one night,i was doin like 60 in top gear,like 5 psi,,well the engine started missing after like 10 seconds of holding on the button steady,so its pretty safe
even if it isnt an efficient setup,washer fluid is a dollar,it wont break the bank,so what if you even use 2x as much to get the same power as a "kit"?
i romp it hard,and i do 400 miles each week just for work alone ,and i use like 2/3 maybe 3/4(severe beating) of a gallon a week
then ive driven 500 miles to ny,and barely used it, its all hiway
i heard somewhere that an "average" is like 1 gallon every 1000 miles i dunno
hope this post isnt too run on,and is readable,lol
Yea, I'm a student, and I would love to do something like this on a budget.
I've seen your new jet. it's rather impressive... aircraft parts on a car are always a good idea 8)
I should have enough stuff lying around at my brother in law's shop.. perhaps a jet from an old carb or lawnmower or SOMETHING in the deadstuff pile...
I like the idea of using washerfluid.... lol that's great, and cheap too...
I'l start messing around sometime over the summer, but I really like seeing all the information comming together in this thread....
Jtanguay mentioned something about using a lawn sprinkler jet... what about the jets at a greenhouse? those give good mist... I'm going to start to experiment with misting... just to see what kind of flow I can get.
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i heard running water injection before an intercooler is bad? supposed to build up in the bottom or something...does the water injection work good enough to run no intercooler hillfolk'r? or are you also using an intercooler?
Spraying before the intercooler is bad in this respect. It can very easily pool and puddle and cause problems. To add to the fact that the small droplets start making big droplets running into each other.
We have lots of people running water-methanol injection and no intercooler.
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I wonder if the % alcohol in the blue washer fluid would erode aluminum... something to think about...
hillfolk' has the right idea about only spraying with boost, and at WOT. he keeps his setup real simple that way. Only problem is if the driver screws up and sprays without boost...
For an atomizing jet, why not get one of those lawn sprinkler tips? the ones that have the special misting nozzles. I think they would do a great job pre-turbo and not really have to worry about damaging pressures.
Most -20 degree F Blue fluid has about 30% methanol. It will not damage aluminum at all. I suppose if you had a tank of it and left an aluminum part in there for e few years it might start to show some signs of erosion, except that after a month or so, the methanol would have absorbed more water and been neutralized.
Even with 50/50 water-methanol there is absolutely zero damage to any aluminum or steel. It is never in constant contact with any metals, and in such a small quantity vs. the huge amount of air and even diesel it is a non-issue.
For the simplest kits, a boost switch is a good way to go. I really, really prefer a progressive injection that matches the needs of the engine at many different loads.
The garden type misters would be much better than nothing, but you are still going through the turbo, which negates the atomization to a large degree. If there was no advantage to using a custom designed and manufactured nozzle, we wouldn't do it.
I am not trying to stop people from making their own systems at all. The more people that use and understand water-methanol, the better, IMO. I just want people to realize the benefits and drawbacks of going different ways.
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2. The combustion of water provides for more power on the power stroke.
How do you figure the energy required to *break up water into H2 and O2, then combust it (reforming it) actually provides any power when it should be zero net energy, or is even present on a large scale? From what I've gathered the increase in power comes from the increase in thermal efficiency, i.e. the water sucks up some of the extra heat from combustion that would otherwise be soaked up by the block (this is also why EGTs drop) and does work by expanding when it transitions from fluid to vapor.
*not that it doesn't happen for any H2O molecules, just that it doesn't happen for the large majority iirc.
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heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.
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heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.
Almost a great Idea... :wink:
But it would be like putting your thumb over the vac pump outlet and blocking it IMO :(
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How do you figure the energy required to *break up water into H2 and O2, then combust it (reforming it) actually provides any power when it should be zero net energy, or is even present on a large scale? From what I've gathered the increase in power comes from the increase in thermal efficiency, i.e. the water sucks up some of the extra heat from combustion that would otherwise be soaked up by the block (this is also why EGTs drop) and does work by expanding when it transitions from fluid to vapor.
*not that it doesn't happen for any H2O molecules, just that it doesn't happen for the large majority iirc.
It's not that the water is being broken up into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then recombined to produce energy. This isn't happening, and you're right, there would be zero net energy even if it was. It's that vaporous water (steam) has 1600 times the volume of liquid water. Turning liquid into vapor causes more expansion of gasses to occur, thus more pressure, thus more torque, thus more power.
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heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.
Almost a great Idea... :wink:
But it would be like putting your thumb over the vac pump outlet and blocking it IMO :(
not if you put a blow off valve on the tank set at a certain psi, like 10 or 15lbs. then it would just build up pressuyre untill that point and then vent excess pressure off, so it would keep the brakes functioning properly etc. you know that useless blow off valve on the intake manifold of a 1.6td? well take it fof the manifold and cap the manifold. then put it to some good use. put it on a pressure tank.
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heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.
This is what i was trying to make, but it tooked me to much time 'n custom works, for just 70usd you can get a 150psi pump.
When i go to the track i can drive every sesion for 45min, i gonna use a 300 or 600cc injector (this is what the factory said to me), this pretty much water i need! so a tank wich is under pressure is not good for an example for me.
Greetz, Benjamin
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The kit i bought
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8075635867&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
kit:
(http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4135/pict03311wj.th.jpg) (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03311wj.jpg)
150psi pump:
(http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9892/pict03302ga.th.jpg) (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03302ga.jpg)
i ordered a extra nozle (wich is +15usd), i got a 300cc an 600cc nozle:
(http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4563/pict03269bh.th.jpg) (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03269bh.jpg)
you realy better buy a solonoid, this is my checkvalve:
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/903/pict03294qe.th.jpg) (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03294qe.jpg)
the checkvalve go open activated by boost with this boost sensor
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3126/pict03285jk.th.jpg) (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03285jk.jpg)
The pump pressure is adjustable, the boost sensor is also adjustable, so you can choose at wich boost you let open the checkvalve.
i can not test this so fast :cry: my engine is STILL not realy installed, its very much custom works wich cost time, i hope i can get 150hp in august
Greetz, Benjamin
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The kit i bought
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8075635867&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
kit:
(http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4135/pict03311wj.th.jpg) (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03311wj.jpg)
150psi pump:
(http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9892/pict03302ga.th.jpg) (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03302ga.jpg)
i ordered a extra nozle (wich is +15usd), i got a 300cc an 600cc nozle:
(http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4563/pict03269bh.th.jpg) (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03269bh.jpg)
you realy better buy a solonoid, this is my checkvalve:
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/903/pict03294qe.th.jpg) (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03294qe.jpg)
the checkvalve go open activated by boost with this boost sensor
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3126/pict03285jk.th.jpg) (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict03285jk.jpg)
The pump pressure is adjustable, the boost sensor is also adjustable, so you can choose at wich boost you let open the checkvalve.
i can not test this so fast :cry: my engine is STILL not realy installed, its very much custom works wich cost time, i hope i can get 150hp in august
Greetz, Benjamin
thats a pretty affordable kit :)
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intercooler ir not?
im not running an intercooler
i didnt have one on my old jetta either
i know i know,,ill get around to installing one eventually
that is a ok lookin kit....
oh actually,i looked last night i used like 1/3 of a gallon this week,kinda light usage.....
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heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.
That or using the turbo manifold boost pressure itself has been done. It is a way to get some proportionality in the system, but it is really, really poor atomization. You get some benefit, but you will not get nearly the benefit you *can* and you will use probably 4 times as much water to do it. Just an FYI.
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Well...
this weekend I took a trip to the wreckers and found some items for my water/alcohol injection setup... I have a new intake tube that I can mangle up..... I got another washer fluid bottle & pump, and I've yet to find an apporpriate nozzle... and I'm thinking a switch too... but we'll see..
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@greggearhead: how do i know i put to much water in the cilinders???
how do i know i use a to big nozzle?
Greetz, Benjamin
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I can't tell you how much fluid to use with a different design nozzle, only the nozzles we have experience with.
For our nozzles, on an IDI TD with about 125-150hp, I would use a 175 or 225ml/min nozzle. More or less for specific application issues (larger for no intercooler, smaller for a very efficient turbo and large intercooler, etc).
With other nozzles, you may have to go larger to try and get as much temp reduction, but it may not tolerate as much fluid. Difficult to say.
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i dont know flow rates and all that stuff,but when i compared the amount of water sprayed in a cup between my 2 different nozzles
ihit the button for 10 seconds for each test
each time,
i had about enough water to fill a "standard spray paint top/cap" like about 1/3 of the way up i wanna say
i should have measured it in a measured cup for you guys
but ijust wanted to compare flow rates on each of my jet setups
i found out my restriction is the 1/8 inch copper guageline that im using
you could probablyalmost use that,if it sprayed nice
my single jet would shoot 5-7 feet (2-2.5 meters roughly) or so
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....
okay, so at our weekly vw meet a few guys and I were tossing around ideas...
someone said a high pressure pump would work better and try to find the best atomization as possible.... so we've come up with the following...
1. Would a CIS injection pump work well for high pressure, seeing as it's ~80psi? and if so, would it or would it not work due to the fact that it may not work well with water as it wasnt designed for moving water.
2. Would a NOS fogger from an old NOS kit work? I wouldnt see why not...
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1. Would a CIS injection pump work well for high pressure, seeing as it's ~80psi? and if so, would it or would it not work due to the fact that it may not work well with water as it wasnt designed for moving water.
i dont know what means CIS, problebly its becouse i just can talk basic english :? i think a 80psi pump is not enough, you have to become a fine mist, i would say you need to have something like 150psi, i realy suggest to get one above 100psi!
When using a waterpump, i dont know (its just an idea) can it beat methanol?
2. Would a NOS fogger from an old NOS kit work? I wouldnt see why not...
as far as i know, the injector will give you a angle, an a quantity, you may not put to much water in the engine! but a flow test on this NOSfogger would be easy :wink: i try to take some pics when my system is working for the angle. i think as long you have a angle its good, as long you get a fine mist its good.
Greetz, Benjamin
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i think a 80psi pump is not enough, you have to become a fine mist, i would say you need to have something like 150psi, i realy suggest to get one above 100psi!
When using a waterpump, i dont know (its just an idea) can it beat methanol?
as the post above states what a CIS pump is.... it's not a waterpump. and if hillfolk'r is using a windscreen washer pump, I'm sure that a CIS pump would deliver much more pressure.
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i think a 80psi pump is not enough, you have to become a fine mist, i would say you need to have something like 150psi, i realy suggest to get one above 100psi!
When using a waterpump, i dont know (its just an idea) can it beat methanol?
as the post above states what a CIS pump is.... it's not a waterpump. and if hillfolk'r is using a windscreen washer pump, I'm sure that a CIS pump would deliver much more pressure.
Most gasser pumps dont live long when they have to transport water. A friend of my did it. Anyway, you can give it a try!
My old 1.6Fiat had an 15psi pump, my brother his FiatTurbo gasser got a 45psi pump. i think a vw will be +- the same.
Greetz, Benjamin
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The CIS is a good high-pressure pump, but its internals won't last long with water, and won't last at all with methanol.
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The CIS is a good high-pressure pump, but its internals won't last long with water, and won't last at all with methanol.
Yeah, the CIS fuel pumps are 80 psi, but if they wont last long with water I guess I'm a little bit F'd up that alley.. maybe I'll have to use something along the lines of what hillfolk'r's got
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The CIS is a good high-pressure pump, but its internals won't last long with water, and won't last at all with methanol.
Yeah, the CIS fuel pumps are 80 psi, but if they wont last long with water I guess I'm a little bit F'd up that alley.. maybe I'll have to use something along the lines of what hillfolk'r's got
OFFTOPIC :oops: does anyone know how much cc/min it can flow?
Greetz, Benjamin
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OFFTOPIC :oops: does anyone know how much cc/min it can flow?
Greetz, Benjamin
I found a great page here
http://www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm#MFI03
that indicateded the following
The pump is capable of producing a pressure of 8 bar (120 psi) with a delivery rate of approximately 4 to 5 litres per minute.
Within the pump is a pressure relief valve that lifts off its seat at 8 bar to arrest the pressure should the filter, fuel lines or other eventualities cause it to become obstructed. The other end of the pump (output) is home to a non-return valve that, when the voltage to the pump is removed, closes the return and maintains pressure within the system, as illustrated in figure 6.1.
The normal operating pressure within this system is approximately 5 bar (75 psi) and at this pressure the current draw on the pump is 5 to 8 amps.
totally off topic, but a really good pump for water injection IF it would hold up to the differences between gasoline and water/alcohol/methanol... etc.
and aint that a *** because the cis pumps are a dime a dozen around these parts
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We sell our pumps seperately - we have 150psi pumps and 220psi pumps, fyi. They last with straight water or 50/50 water-methanol.
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We sell our pumps seperately - we have 150psi pumps and 220psi pumps, fyi. They last with straight water or 50/50 water-methanol.
although it would be nice to have such equipment, I do not have the adequate funds for such a device.... a CIS pump would be cheap.. like.. 10 bucks cheap, same with alot of other pumps.....
as I stated on much earlier in the thread, I'm trying to do this as low cost as possible, because I'm basically a starving student
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those pics i ever promised :oops: , this is the angle (of my 300cc injector)
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2243/pict0120oh7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2740/pict0121kl5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7536/pict0122hv9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
@BellCityDubber: did you tried something out with a CIS pump?
Greetz, Benjamin
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those pics i ever promised :oops: , this is the angle (of my 300cc injector)
@BellCityDubber: did you tried something out with a CIS pump?
Greetz, Benjamin
No, I havent had the time to mess around and experiment yet... I've been working towards getting my 2nd vehicle on the road, and trying to get boatloads of homework finished.. but if I ever come across some time and some equipment to experiment with, I'll surely let people know...
thanks for the pictures, I really like that spray pattern
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Okay, I've finally got some parts that I can play with
I have another intake I can tear apart/open.. I've got another washer resivoir and washer fluid pump, I've got wires (no switch :S )
I've got a bit of tubing.... annnnnnnd..... a NOS fogger....
I'm going to see how well the pump will pressurize and how well the NOS fogger will atomize/fog.
and I'm also toying with the idea of also running an intercooler as well...
I'll be doing some mucking around with this gear this weekend, I'll let people know
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let the pump run for 1minit with the nozzle, place the nozzle in a bottle, you can see how much cc/min it flows, if its to much, you got a problem.
Greetz, Benjamin
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Another important factor is that the nozzle is spraying into a pressurized intake. If your washer pump makes 7psi, when the boost goes over 7psi, there will be basically no spraying!
Here is a pic of one of our nozzles showing what a specialized design and more pressure can get you.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h43/greggearhead/40375w-pattern2.jpg)
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Another important factor is that the nozzle is spraying into a pressurized intake. If your washer pump makes 7psi, when the boost goes over 7psi, there will be basically no spraying!
Here is a pic of one of our nozzles showing what a specialized design and more pressure can get you.
I'm a poor starving student, as much as I'd love to get a nozzle like that, and a higher powered pump.... I'm broke, so I'll scavange up whatever parts I can to make something that will do the job.
as for spraying into the intake... I wont be spraying into the pressurized side, I'll be spraying into the turbo intake as per hillfolk'r's configuration...
I have similar parts and pieces so it SHOULD work somewhat similar to his design and perhaps be effective to some degree.
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Another important factor is that the nozzle is spraying into a pressurized intake. If your washer pump makes 7psi, when the boost goes over 7psi, there will be basically no spraying!
Here is a pic of one of our nozzles showing what a specialized design and more pressure can get you.
I'm a poor starving student, as much as I'd love to get a nozzle like that, and a higher powered pump.... I'm broke, so I'll scavange up whatever parts I can to make something that will do the job.
as for spraying into the intake... I wont be spraying into the pressurized side, I'll be spraying into the turbo intake as per hillfolk'r's configuration...
I have similar parts and pieces so it SHOULD work somewhat similar to his design and perhaps be effective to some degree.
I think for efficiency wise, using the high pressure side would be most beneficial.
this kit seems pretty cheap:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WATER-INJECTION-Alcohol-Intercooler-Turbo-Supercharger_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ42604QQihZ013QQitemZ230022320454QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
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I think for efficiency wise, using the high pressure side would be most beneficial.
this kit seems pretty cheap:
That kit is 200 bucks before shipping.
I have a problem getting 20 bucks
and.... you need a credit card or some method of payment (I hate paypal, I got screwed once)..
sooo... ebay buys are NOT an option.
neither is BUYING a kit.. which is why I'm attempting to BUILD one from scratch, I figure if hillfolk'r can do it... what's stopping me from doing the same?
annnnywho..
I tested the volume of the pump, it delivers about 1&1/3 cup of fluid in 10 seconds... if it's injected into the intake where the popoff valve was, I'm sure the turbo will be able to aid in atomization on top of running it thru a NOS fogger.
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i;m gonna try messing with a windex style nozzle and see what happens, and thinking maybe a paint nozzle, and if they don't put out enough, then i'll used more than one...
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i;m gonna try messing with a windex style nozzle and see what happens, and thinking maybe a paint nozzle, and if they don't put out enough, then i'll used more than one...
like an airbrush nozzle? not a bad idea.
All you would really need to make your homebrew water injection system would be the washer pump from a vw, and a good nozzle. (very cheap if you know of a vw just sitting around...)
Go to home depot in their lawn section I think. They sell these little nozzles for people growing stuff (you can either have a jet like spray, or a misting spray. I'd go with misting...)
I think the price is around 2-3 bucks and you could hook it all up quite easily to the washer pump.
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I'm a poor starving student, as much as I'd love to get a nozzle like that, and a higher powered pump.... I'm broke, so I'll scavange up whatever parts I can to make something that will do the job.
as for spraying into the intake... I wont be spraying into the pressurized side, I'll be spraying into the turbo intake as per hillfolk'r's configuration...
I have similar parts and pieces so it SHOULD work somewhat similar to his design and perhaps be effective to some degree.
Oh I am not trying to convince you to buy a kit - I remember only too well eating noodles out of a bag for months because I bought some car parts. Ah, college.
I was just trying to show what you can acheived with a better design and more pressure - something to shoot for, maybe.
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Another important factor is that the nozzle is spraying into a pressurized intake. If your washer pump makes 7psi, when the boost goes over 7psi, there will be basically no spraying!
Here is a pic of one of our nozzles showing what a specialized design and more pressure can get you.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h43/greggearhead/40375w-pattern2.jpg)
if you ran a metal tank,you could run a boost line to the tank,so the pressure in the bottle is "equal" to the intake,and voila your 7 psi pump squirts no matter what the boost pressure is
why dont you guys just use my setup? it cost like 10 bux,and it works good,i use it as a passing gear on the hiway,lol
i just keep my foot steady,and pull out to pass,i just activate the water injection
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if you ran a metal tank,you could run a boost line to the tank,so the pressure in the bottle is "equal" to the intake,and voila your 7 psi pump squirts no matter what the boost pressure is
Smart :D
Greetz, Benjamin
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if you ran a metal tank,you could run a boost line to the tank,so the pressure in the bottle is "equal" to the intake,and voila your 7 psi pump squirts no matter what the boost pressure is
Smart :D
Hillfolk'r is the man
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ill haveta try and draw a pic from my turbo book on this water injection setup with a pressurized bottle
ya need maybe a check valve and a vent,i cant remember,ill haveta get the book later :wink:
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Well, I've done some tests this weekend and used my setup.. the pump is good (1&1/3 cup / 10 sec) I'm using a mk1 washer bottle due to it's size advantage (I dont mind refilling it) my hoses look good and the length is nice for where I am going to mount the bottle.
I tried using my NOS fogger.. but it wasnt as effective as I would have thought. the pattern was right, but little to know atomization/misting
so I'm going to try a few other types of nozzles...
e.g. carb jets, etc
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if you ran a metal tank,you could run a boost line to the tank,so the pressure in the bottle is "equal" to the intake,and voila your 7 psi pump squirts no matter what the boost pressure is
Smart :D
Hillfolk'r is the man
[/size]
Howbig a pipe needed to reduce the lag of charging the bottle? :wink:
What kind of physics required to get a 7psi squirt into 7psi :shock: :wink:
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whats the lowest amount of boost you should run with WI..
because i saw people saying for high boost really only? Mine only runs 25 lbs , could i run WI? or would my best bet still be the intercooler?
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Well I've read all 5 pages of that above... interesting approaches, of which there are two basic ones :)
Hill'n'folks and Gregs!
I've been checking this out from across the Atlantic, on the UK and Euro side, remembering that Ricardo himself was probably the first to look into WI for IC engines in any detail, and his graph plot of overfuelling aero engines and then when that reached its limits of detonation suppression, substituting water injection. We're talking 1930's here and that plot still stands and is frequently reprinted to show what benefits are attainable in a spark ignition engine -
Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce and subsequently the Germans were the main champions of this, P&W developing it to a very high level - in fact it was the difference between some of their engines surviving war power settings - or not :roll:
Applied to a diesel things are a bit different, but not much.
The difference between Hill'n and Greg is obviously
1) cost DIY Vs Pro approach
.. which cannot be resolved, you're on one side or the other depending on thickness of your wallet;
2) Where and how to inject
Something that hasn't been mentioned, as such, is that 2) is very much influenced by whether short term boost cooling or long term steady state WI is anticipated.
Whilst Hill'n uses it mainly 'just for passing', this is no substitute for an intercooler when a diesel is in a heavier vehicle than a car. Even my AAZ Transporter (vanagon), a draggy shape weighing nearly 2 tons empty, requires 9-10 psi to cruise at the legal limit over here (70 mph).
Long term WI needs to be efficient and reliable at these boost and power levels, and Greg has his figures spot on, between 150 and 300 cc/min to give sufficient equivalence to a good IC.
He also advises higher pressures, better atomising nozzles and some means of ensuring that WI is boost related and cannot inject below a threshold boost - in fact atmospheric pressure would be the minimum, but 7-10 psi makes sense.
And post turbo injection - this is Aquamist's solution too (and unless for a 'bad' hot underbonnet installation, post intercooler too).
Aquamist in the UK were responsible for supplying the equipment for all the World Rallye car WI systems, so successful they all went that way eventually, and have now been regulated against in that sport.
They are also repsonsible for the WI systems of the recent Diesel World Speed Record 350mph by JCB Diggers (Ricardo, still an important IC engine research outfit, developed the engines). Apparently the tyres ability to transmit more power prevented further spped incraeses, not power.
Their top pump isn't cheap, but the main thrust of their equipment is high pressure, high reliability and nozzles that atomise extremely well under those high pressures. This is Formula One type stuff, the pump designed from scratch as the ultimate WI pump. they do a cheaper higher capacity one too, but their Race Pump is the dog's (about $300). Their control systems and instrumentation also extends to Formula One type levels, but as I say, World Rally Championship regs have now banned these systems (proof of the pudding!)
As Greg says you need at least 10 bar (150 psi) to do the job properly, to keep the flow rates down you need the massive surface area of fine droplets.
This cools the charge, but there is a lot more going on in the cylinder than a lower charge temperature when 25 to 50% of fuel weight of water is being injected. In fact benefits are still accruing beyond these quantities, if the engine and boost flows are sufficient to utilise them. 100% is possible but eventually the engine will flood, not come to harm, but simply unable to handle that quantity.
One of the main benefits is that the cylinder pressure curve is smoothed out, peak temps come down, but energy absorbed in the early stages of combustion is released later... this can only be beneficial and those having trouble with rod/ring and bottom end strength, as well as head temp issues at high boost levels should really look into this seriously.
Injecting pre-turbo at significant and useful quantities long term has definitely been seen to to erode compressor impellers. For a few seconds here and there, maybe not.
Also, 10% methanol to prevent freezing is probably the best compromise, thats what they tend to use, water has all the other properties required and as a substitute for an intercooler, where WI automatically starts above a certain boost level, 50/50 starts to get expensive as well as a pain in the butt to organise.
But the key to really good WI efficiency, is good control of flow rate, boost dependent and extremely highly atomised before entering the cylinder - you then get charge density benefits + additional in cylinder power enhancement without any risk of overdoing it.
This is not saying Hill'n isn't having great fun developinga and using his grassroots WI system - it sure sounds like it works, as a quick and cheap way of cooling things down and getting better charge density. But its not the way that the pros have found works best when the chips are really down.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk
Has some excellent information, but hard to find on their site... look at technical and resources. Here are the JCB diesel World Record breaker links if you are intersted:-
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dieselmax
http://www.jcbdieselmax.com/html/home.php
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Some really nice points there, and well said.
Injecting farther away from the intake manifold gives more time for the water to cool the inlet charge if that is what you are after, more than combustion control.
Also, the higher % of methanol, the more power increase you will see. We have documente that over and over on larger diesels. Typically on a 5.9 Cummins, straight water is about 30-40whp, 30% methanol is 50whp and 50% methanol is 70whp.
The methanol acts like a catalyst to start the burn a little sooner (yep, like advancing the injection timing slightly) and helps to burn the diesel more completely. Helps a lot with reduciton of particulate matter (black soot)in the exhaust, while the water helps to reduce the NOx emissions.
Yeah, that streamliner diesel was a very impressive display - I would love to see what the budget was for that car build. Nice to see everything came together by the end of the week.
We actually had a couple kits on one or two Freightliners there - one got the record, but of course I can't find the info right now. Shane called and was all kinds of excited, saying how there was no way they would have gotten the record without the water injection.
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Hey, put up a link to that Freightliner record, we could both take this thread even more off topic with that :)
JCB are a private non-quoted company, quite rare these days, but well-known for being so, as the British continually bemoan all their famous companies being screwed by the city suits for development cash and then being bought by US and European interests, then the layoffs start the long road to oblivion :roll:
... so JCB are heralded as a world apart. Morgan of sports car fame is another company that has for many years held out against pressures to become other than a family owned private company.
So if the Chairman says 'do it' the risk is all his, or the boards, and there's no shareholders to whinge about their dividends being down a penny or a pound.
Whatever the cost, I think it was justified as their normal advertising budget over a period of a year or two, and what a fantastic substitute! And also as a part of the development of their latest engine range - these were fundamentally two of their JCB444 units and so I hear, didn't have to be modified that much at all.
Sir Anthony Bamford, Chairman of privately owned JCB, is very clear why he wanted to build a JCB record-breaker: “I am passionate about the importance of engineering excellence to Britain and I see using the JCB engine for this record attempt as a fantastic way of showcasing what British engineers can do. The JCB444 has been acknowledged as a remarkable piece of engineering, and this programme to build the world’s fastest diesel-powered automobile is precisely the sort of technical challenge that we should rise to.”
Green, who set the first-ever supersonic world land speed record at 763.035 mph in ThrustSSC on the Black Rock Desert on 15 October 1997, is thrilled to have been given another opportunity to enter the record books. He said: “We will be following in the tradition of British record breakers by running at the sport’s spiritual home, the remarkable Bonneville Salt Flats. I am really looking forward to driving another British entry in the '300 mph Club,' and a diesel-engined, wheel-driven one at that.”
PS. Personally, I predict that it will be a long, long time before ThrustSSC's land speed record is broken, if ever. The aerodynamic problems were quite awesome, and even with 2 even more powerful RR Spey engines waiting to be used, Andy Green 'suggested' that they should call it a day - and no one argued!
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lol i use for more than passing,,i go thru a gallon a week almost
see my signature,please :wink:
i feel like the guy that built "the worlds fastest indian",an awesome movie :lol:
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Oh yes, watching some of those videos brought back that movie to me - a good'un that. Didn't he go back to Speed Week year after year after that first visit ?
I also like the guy's comment on the JCB video about Bonneville -
Well, I don't go to Florida, England or anywhere else on holiday - this place is my holiday - every year
Here is Andy Green going up to 725 mph at Black Rock, quite what happens between 350 and 450 is anyone's guess, but it went way off line as the video came back on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujJRDwshjbQ
And from outside the car, with a good ss bang and chute deployment...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaGO-we-Fag&mode=related&search=
(The RAF 'lend' him out to these teams on full pay I believe, a fast jet pilot - Good calm commentary - but obvious relief as those chutes deploy :P )
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i liked hi "offerings to the god of speed"
and there was a shelf of fragged parts :lol:
yea vwgirl82
i say if you have a turbo,use water injection :wink:
you can play games and restrict the flow so you dont get so much water as i do,that will work for lower psi setups,like stock,,or even your 25 psi setup
eventually if you get an ic,you can still plumb the wi into the intake manifold+use a "boose equalizing line" like described before
as far as the size of that line,im thinkin about the size of 3/8 i.d. hose wouldnt cause any lag issues to pressurize the bottle 8)
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A good rule of thumb might be, start the Water Injection as the boost gets to the max boost that the standard setup gives, so for mine that would be 7.5~ 8psi, yours might be 10~12 psi. There's little doubt that above that figure the compressed charge could be doing with a bit of cooling - and the peak combustion pressures and temperatures evening out over the full power stroke too.
A benefit over an IC-less system that hasn't been made much of, or even referred to, is the absence of any pressure losses. These might be 2~4 psi in a tortuous IC system, IIRC, slowing the speed at which boost builds up as much as anything else.
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oh
im silly,i see bellcitydubber is runnin a setup
cool man
yea i have a switch taped to my shifter knob,and bretty much any time i go WOT,and the boost gets up above 5-10 psi(i run like 35 or more),boom i hit the switch
and you can pulse it too,if the boost is kinda low
or just pulse it in certain situations
the other night it wasnt spooled up good+i was injecting water,so i stopped+waited for more boost+then hit it again
lol one interesting thing that my setup does
if i hold the water on in between gears,or even if theres enough built up in the intake
the revs will hang,like a nasty governor mod gone bad
so dont hit the water,then let off wot to stop
itll still be tryin to make some power
its a little like a controlled runaway,i guess
:wink: