VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: deepmud on May 12, 2006, 10:07:40 pm
-
I have gotten my TDI-M from Ultim8vw (Peter on TDIclub)
Won't be running for awhile but I wanted to share a few pics. Love the intake manifold. Looks high-flow and all. 8)
(http://www.kyrias.com/deepmud/2006_05_12small/2006_05_12-diesel%20020.jpg)
Engine was a 130hp 1999 Passat - I'm still learning the details of the hybrid pump. For instance, I don't know if it uses the 1.9td pump shaft, or the 1.9TDI pump shaft - since it's supposed to be using the internals of the TDI - I think it's the shaft and cam, etc. inside the 1.9td housing.[/img]
-
(http://www.kyrias.com/deepmud/2005_05_13_TDI_M/2005_05_13_TDI_M067.jpg)
the new home. work continues.
-
nice :!: lookin good i really like the tdi-m setups
i heard in europe that they were mech. at first anyways,i dont know,can anyone confirm this??
-
macsdub
As far as I have seen in 4 years of Internet VW diesel board watching, all VW direct injection engines (TDI and SDI) for both Europe and US/Canada came from the factory with electronic controlled injection pumps, never a mechanical controlled pump.
If someone has a VW or Bosch part number for a VW factory issue TDI or SDI mechanical pump feel free to post up and prove me wrong. Just easy on the "I don't know the part number but I know a guy who knew a guy whose half brother's uncle swears he had one" posts.
deepmud
Looks real nice. The TDI is going into another Suzuki Samurai right? Did you make your own trans adapter and motor mounts, or can you share who you got the adapter stuff from?
Piper106
-
i heard in europe that they were mech. at first anyways,i dont know,can anyone confirm this??
Nope, I'll also concur, VW never produced a mechanical direct injection engine. They did produce the mechanical indirect injection 1.9TD in europe and canada, which may be where the confusion is coming from. The 1.9TD is basically a bored and stroked 1.6TD.
-
ok no prob,i wasnt sure..
um, i have a 84 jetta td pump,with a 12mm head on mine,i dont have the numbers offhand,but i know i gave some info to "zeroroll" give him an im
maybe i posted my pump numbers here or on vortex, i gave the part number for a cummins pump somewhere that i had(rob the 12mm head from it,and put it on a td pump)
-
macsdub
deepmud
Looks real nice. The TDI is going into another Suzuki Samurai right? Did you make your own trans adapter and motor mounts, or can you share who you got the adapter stuff from?
Piper106
www.acmeadapters.com has kits to adapt to Toyota, Suzuki Samurai, Suzuki Sidekick.
It's getting there :D
(http://www.kyrias.com/deepmud/2006_05_31/2006_05_31%20006.jpg)
-
cool 8)
Greetz, Benjamin
-
that sure looks like it will be more fun than a 2wd VW. dont get me wrong i love all my dubs but wheelin is just plain ol' fun.
-jared
-
I was working towards putting the serpentine belt on - nothing seemed to work. I was thinking of cutting off this pulley thing in the middle, to try a pattern that ran the belt across that point.
Then I found a pic of my motor, just before it got shipped. There's the serpentine, not yet misplaced on the way over but WTF? The pulley thing/mount with no pulley on it looks like it needs to have a dead pulley on on it .....
(http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/317496/fullsize/Fotografie(551).jpg)
then I kept digging in my old pics some more - found another Passat, with the fan still on it......WITH THE FAN STILL ON IT!
There's my missing dead pulley. I did tell Peter I couldn't use the fan. However, it would have been better to ship it so I could tear it down to an idler pulley.
(http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/319396/fullsize/m.jpg)
So I have to figure a way to make an idler pulley on the fan mount - there's a hollow shaft there, ,with bearings - maybe it won't be too bad.
After that, I have cooling to figure out (I'd love to get Evans but the $$ isn't going to be there plus it's a pain to buy compared to regular longlife Prestone or whatever), then fuel, then battery (not yet in place under the bed - going with Optima, can be mounted on it's side and it's better for weight to have it back there) - then ..... it should move itself around the yard. A big moment, since EVERYTHING on it is completly custom - brake lines, suspension, driveshafts,motor mouts,tranny mounts, almost nothing is left not built by me or swapped in by me.
:D and this is the SECOND diesel swap into this thing. I must be nuts lol.
Here's a pic of the new exhaust -I was able to cut up and use the old one from the 1.9td, 2" straight pipe going all the way out the back. It was pretty quiet with the k14 - how loud are these VNT turbo'd motors with no muffler/cat/nothin'?
(http://www.kyrias.com/deepmud/2006_6_11small/2006_06_11_008.jpg)
-
If that engine is from a 130 HP Passat, what you have is a Pumpe-Duese TDI. It uses unit injectors for each cylinder instead of a conventional distributor pump. TDIs have never been mechanical in terms of fuel injection control since their were first introduced in 1989.
Good luck making it mechanical.
-
I believe I have mis-quoted Petr - looking back in emails, he said 110hp Passat, 1998, not available in the U.S., and configured inline, not transverse. The 130hp number came up in the same conversation as a practical minimum expectation for this engine as configured, with option to adjust for more built in to the custom pump, which did not come with the 110hp engine originally. It's all just numbers untill it runs I guess, but misquoting what the engine came with is confusing, sorry.
As for making a PD into a TDI-M- I would guess taking off the unit injectors would pretty much end it's PD-ness, so at that point it's back to TDI-M like already is out there. The 2.0 4-valve engine still might make it worthwhile - but I don't know about a way to replace the PD unit injector with a non-PD type being possible. If it can be done, the a "was-PD-now-isn't" might be a cool off-road rig, but the PD is already a good injection system that makes a lot of power - I don't see them getting converted to mechanical very often even if it is possible.
-
well - I got it running. but I think the timing is off. It will run with cold advance on full, but only about 1100 rpm - add more fuel and you get white-smoke/unburnt fuel (LOTS and LOTS - my whole house and yard smells ICK!), and clattery/misfire sounds. I think it might be 180 off - but I need to find a way to check.
I searched and searched and found a reference to late model 1.9td timing NOT needing a dial indicator - also, there is no VW flywheel and bellhousing here either. I think the pump was mounted without this as well - I don't know what he (the Czech Tech :D )did to determine TDC compression #1. I think I can find TDC by pulling the pan - compression may require pulling the glowplug, which is THE SUCK - so perhaps pulling the valve cover?
Then if I have TDC compression stroke, #1 cylinder - what's the timing procedure for the late model 1.9td with adjustable pulley, no dial indicator required?
-
Is there still a notch on the camshaft pulley for TDC? On the "inner" rim of the pulley, there should be a little notch that will line up with the flat part of the valve cover on the side opposite the intake/exhaust manifolds. I.E. where the "flange" of the valve cover bolts to the head. I did notice there was a cover on the inner side of the cam pulley- probably will not be able to see it with that there. Sorry if this is information you already knew! :D
Other than the compression trick, not sure you can do it any other way besides pulling the valve cover. (which really isnt that bad.....)
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
-
You can pull an injector and stick something like a coathanger (after being straightened out of course) down the hole and rotate the engine till its at the top. (When the coathanger stops moving I mean). Once you get the engine at TDC, ensure the valves are also in the proper position. Make marks on your flywheel and camshaft sprocket that align with something, perhaps a mark on the valve cover for the cam, flywheel + bell housing for the crank. The pump should have some indication of a mark to be lined up. Then you wont have this problem again and you wont have to remove an injector every time you wana ensure your engine is at TDC.
-
Not much point in trying to time a mechanical TDI with an indicator, unless you want to record the value for resetting it later. There are no specs out there for a mechanical TDI, the IDI timing specs will be totally out to lunch for the TDI. Just crank it around until it runs well...
The best way to find TDC without a marked flywheel is to use a dead stop screwed into the glow plug hole. "hillfolk'r" has pictured his version in a "homemade special tool" thread a while back. http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3800&highlight=tool Screw the stop into the #1 glow plug hole, turn crank till it stops in one direction, mark it, turn it the other direction until it stops and make a second mark. The point midway between the marks is TDC.
-
yea there ya go with that link
im in ny and i dont have acess to my imageshack :cry:
thanks for posting that
um,ive got my tdi timed to like.98-.100 or so,pretty much like a "stock" td setting
my 12mm pump went right off my old idi,and onto my tdi too
i tried it at forst around .75,and it was smoky and stuff,i kept goin up to 1.00 and it was fine,i didnt try for more,its got plenty of power for me :wink:
dont worry itll rip your head off with the torque :twisted:
-
so what about the rumor of the "no dial indicator" base timing - any input? Or do I need to get the tools and quit complaining I don't have them lol.
I feel pretty good about getting EXACT TDC with the pan off, and I guess if I go that far, the valve cover is no biggie. So I should find/set/mark 0 degrees - What about loosening the line on #1 and watching for fuel injection-pulse-leak?
macsub, my rig smokes like a steam pipe with white, at least till it warms up - think just adjusting for some advance is advisable or, again, man-up for the tools?
-
so what about the rumor of the "no dial indicator" base timing - any input? Or do I need to get the tools and quit complaining I don't have them lol.
You can reset the base timing on a later model 1.9TD without a dial indicator by locking the pump hub with a 6mm pin, loosening the 3 pump pulley bolts, turning the engine to TDC and then tightening the bolts. The trouble is you don't have a 1.9TD, so doubtful that 1.9TD timing will be ideal. It might get it running but you'll need to determine the best timing experimentally. Remember that "macsdub's" pump has a 12mm plunger, so his ideal timing will be somewhat different from yours with a 9mm plunger.
I feel pretty good about getting EXACT TDC with the pan off, and I guess if I go that far, the valve cover is no biggie. So I should find/set/mark 0 degrees - What about loosening the line on #1 and watching for fuel injection-pulse-leak?
I tried to determine TDC once on an IDI on an engine stand without a flywheel. I first used your method of looking at the crank with the pan off, then re-thought that idea and used a dead stop through the injector hole/prechamber. Turned out I missed by about 10º with the "looking at the crank" method. You may have a better eye then me... I also like the dead stop method simply because it's way, way less work than pulling the pan.
-
I'm concerned about the heat shields under the injector - if it's no biggie then great.
I do have a 1.9td in a way. The pump is a hybrid - it's a 10mm TDI plunger and cam in a 1.9td pump body - it will be interesting to see if it is already at stock 1.9td timing - thanks for the how-to - if it's already there, I'll try advancing it.
I was feeling confident in getting where the crank is at = I can measure if the middle pistons are truly at the bottom of the stroke - but if the bottom of the block isn't machined exactly at right angles for some design reason, it won't work for sure. Pulling the injector helps find the compression stroke AND TDC - seems like a win/win if it doesn't get me in more trouble :D
-
(http://i10.tinypic.com/43frs6e.jpg)
(http://i9.tinypic.com/2a774on.jpg)
well - I took these on the way out to work this morning. I see the mark on the cam pulley - I'm not seeing a place to put a 6mm pin on the pump pulley - I'm going to go search some more, but I'm missing the obvious please tell me :D
Somewhere I saw a thread on re-using heat shields, too......
-
Deepmud, can you post a picture of the fuel pump side of your engine? I'm curious what the oil filter housing/braket look like. Also, what engine code is that? Thanks.
-
looking for pics for ya' - it's the "angled towareds the flywheel" adapter...
here's a pic of the crank balancer, with a dot drilled for some timing purpose...
(http://www.kyrias.com/deepmud/2006_05_12small/2006_05_12-diesel%20036.jpg)
EDIT here's the best pic I have, when I first got the motor. I have since pulled the oil cooler/heat exchanger.
(http://www.kyrias.com/deepmud/2006_05_12small/2006_05_12-diesel%20008.jpg)
-
I'm not seeing a place to put a 6mm pin on the pump pulley
In your full front pic of the engine the pin fits in the pump pulley hub at the little slot at about the 2 o'clock position. The pump will need to be turned a bit more clockwise before the pin will go into the hole in the pump housing, the hole is obscured by the pulley hub in the picture. I have an edited photo but its on imagestation (may or may not work...), my favorite "uploadpixels" appears to have been hacked by some crazy turks... :( Anyway, the big red arrow marks the spot that the pin fits through the hub.
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid215/p9dd64ed87f294cbff9d4b580fca70311/ece6138d.jpg)
-
hmmm - knowing that, and looking at the pic, it seems likely the motor pic was taken just as the tech was finished with it.
SO - who knows about the markings? Looks like both the indicator on the crank is "down" as well as the mark on the cam - I think(might be pointed UP actually) - is that as it should be when setting timing? I have the original he sent me, somewhere, prehaps the cam mark shows up better there.
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/434853/fullsize/ece6138da.jpg)
-
the higher res pic says to me things could be off - and explain why the engine runs so bad.
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/434854/fullsize/fotografie(551)a.jpg)
link to the high res copy, un-paint-chopped
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/media/317496_1
again - I don't know where the marks are supposed to end up, but I will get them lined up this evening and see where it's at.
-
The mark on the balancer is a balance hole not a timing mark. There aren't any timing marks on the balancer of any VW engine I've ever encountered. The marks on the cam sprocket are also meaningless as it has no key and can be installed in any orientation. The cam must be locked at the rear with the cam locking bar.
You might have trouble getting the pump timing pin installed since the TDI rear cover from that era does not provide access to the front of the pump housing where the pin bore is located. The TDI did not use the small pin/slotted pulley timing method until the new style ALH engine, so the rear timng belt cover does not provide access. The installer must have done some cutting to get the hub through the cover though, so you migh be alright. The hub cannot be removed from a late model 1.9TD pump, it has no key and the timing is lost if it is removed.
-
ok - thanks for the tip . I am about at the end of the "over-thinking the problem while stuck at work" mode :D so I will soon get some more info when I get back to the motor and look it over again. I'll set the cam mark straight up? staight down? and see were the pump is, and look for someone to have marked the pulley. Or whatever :D
EDIT - the motor is a 1998 110hp Passat from CZ, but not an older AAZ block (my 1.9td motor mounts wouldn't work)- - I'll see what I can find about which block it is too.
-
Deepmud, thanks for the pics, they helped.
-
You really have to stop looking at the front of the motor, there ain't no timing marks there. The cam sprocket fits on a taper so it can be installed in any orientation so the marks are useless. You have to pull the valve cover and use the proper setting bar or a suitably thick hunk of metal to set the cam position. And until you properly mark the flywheel, you'll be working blind there as well.
I consider any of the TDI's that still have an intermediate shaft to be the old style block. There are variations in the machining for transverse/longitudinal mounting that can hinder the use of some mounts but its the same basic lump as the north american AHU and the older IDI AAZ.
-
ah, yer' killin' me :lol:
You are right, I should suspect everthing. "likely" the cam was left alone, and the mark was set at the factory, but...
SO I need so suspect cam timing as well as pump timing, and do whatever it takes to determine compression stroke TDC #1 - pulling the valve cover lets me observe valve operation, which determines compression stroke - I'm going to assume the cam mark is correct if it seems to be close - I'll look for a mark on the head around the valve cover. Ah, what fun :D Hopefully I'll be able to use the pin to locate the pump, and see if I am correctly timed - until then, I'm just overthinking everything to no good purpose.
-
Yeah I'm bustin' your ass... :D
The cam sprocket marks must be just a leftover from the gasser, they have no value on the diesel and they are not set anywhere in particular from the factory. They are never used for timing purposes, factory or otherwise. Again, ignore them! The cam is timed by placing the tool in the slot at the back of the cam, no marks are ever used, ever. Period.
With the crank at TDC#1 you should see the slot at the back of the cam level with the head surface and the pin should fit through the slot in the pump hub and into the hole in the pump body.
-
well - pics are downloading and I'll post them shortly - but the cam mark is NEARLY spot on - there is a little mark on the cover, and with the cam slot flat in back the mark NEARLY lines up.
I pulled the #1 injector- duh, it's easy on a TDI :roll: and went over and over and over between the "stopped going up" and "started going down" points, and found I line right up with a black sharpy mark on the crank - I'll wack that with a chisel tip later. With that mark lined up on the timing mark on the cover (another gasser leftover I would guess) there is a hole exactly lined up behind the gap, just like you said.
So.
It runs like crap, the timing adjustment is exactly centered, it runs better when I advance timing as far as it will go (I backed out the stop all the way on the cold start advance) - so how much is 1.0 of pump advance in terms of adjustable pulley?
Pics coming.
-
so how much is 1.0 of pump advance in terms of adjustable pulley?
Difficult to say, camplate lift and rise play the major role there. There are no lift specs for the TDI because they normally use feedback from the #3 injector lift sensor and a scan tool to set the timing. I beleive we've come full circle and you'll need to pick up that dial guage and adaptor if you want to shoot for a specific number. Good news is its easy to adjust with the 2 piece pulley...
I say just loosen the bolts in the pulley and turn the hub clockwise to advance it a bit and give it a try. You're going to have to experiment...
-
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/434904/fullsize/p9194471.jpg)
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/434905/fullsize/p9194473.jpg)
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/434909/fullsize/p9194474.jpg)
-
I say just loosen the bolts in the pulley and turn the hub clockwise to advance it a bit and give it a try. You're going to have to experiment...
cool - I'll set it to "a bit", take pics, and crank 'er up lol :D
Anyone ever turn the #3 lift sensor into a tach drive?
-
:D :D Advanced about 1/2 the total possible range - fired right up -- I can adjust the main fuel screw with two fingers so up it went until the idle stopped coming down - backed it off - she's purring along. Revs up, no white smoke.
Overthinking it a lot wasted time :? Thanks for the good advice, all.
Pwhaaaa what an acrid smell - I see why the TDI guys talk about putting the cat back on. :lol:
-
deepmud,
can you put a dial indicator on your pump and check the timing at the TDC mark for others doing the swap in the future?
Thanks and good luck
Justin
-
well - I don't yet have a gauge - however, getting where it WAS is easy, it's the standard, set-by-pin 1.9td setting - and I have the new posistion marked too.
I got my rig to move around the yard - whee! My temporary intercooler pipeing isn't glued so any pressure blows it apart, lol. I just let out the clutch at idle and bumpe around. I'm pretty happy, 'cause it's been over 2 years since I cut apart my running, working 1.9td Samruari, and finally it's moving again.
-
It's running pretty well - I have driven it over some obastacles, the giant tires are working well, the diesel rolls them up over logs and such nicely. At idle it seems about like my old IDI 1.9td - very torqey, sort of unstoppable. Stomping the trottle doesn't react like I think it should tho'. No smoke at all ( I can see the end of the exhaust, it's dumping by my trans, up at the firewall and I have a hole in the floor where I can see the end of the 2" pipe) - I tried turning the main fuel screw in, but I can only go so far or I can't get the idle down.
I try going over the old Smog "make your TD a faster car" thread and see what tweaks to try. I had the ol' 1.9td going pretty fast with the just the main fuel screw and a mild custom grind on the aneroid pin.
-
um,ive got my tdi timed to like.98-.100 or so,pretty much like a "stock" td setting
my 12mm pump went right off my old idi,and onto my tdi too
i didnt read the whole thing here again :roll: but if yea there is no spec for a tdi-m
mine runs fine set to a stock 84 1.6td spec
.95-1.00mm