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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: RunninWild on September 16, 2016, 10:56:32 pm
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I finally got all my parts and began replacing the oil pump and main, rod and im shaft bearings in an attempt to fix my oil pressure issues.
The cause was pretty obvious after removing bearing cap #2
(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20160916_223425_zpsuyoh8ozr.jpg) (http://s878.photobucket.com/user/mikeinaus/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160916_223425_zpsuyoh8ozr.jpg.html)
What causes the bearings to become so mangled like this? The crank feels smooth with one tiny ridge in the very middle (barely catches my finger nail) which I'm hoping wont be an issue for the new bearing. I'm going to check the clearances with plastigauge but I'm not removing the crank to do a proper inspection.
The other bearings were less severe looking more like this
(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20160916_224327_zpsurjqcbbg.jpg) (http://s878.photobucket.com/user/mikeinaus/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160916_224327_zpsurjqcbbg.jpg.html)
I'm not sure if that big gash in the side happened before or after I removed it but I'm thinking it happened after it was removed. A couple of the other bearings had metal slivers coming off outside edges. Is this type of wear from oil starvation or some kind of other issue? I'm pretty skeptical of the supposed 175,000km this engine has.It starts and runs really well so at least it has decent compression. Even if the head is on its way out I have a brand new one sitting under my bed. I'm hoping the new bearings and oil pump will be enough to last it a few years.
The bearings are stamped 026 591B, google brings this up as vw main bearings but it doesn't list what size they are. Anyone know if they are standard size original bearings?
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Is the engine still in the car while you are doing this work?
I think not, since the intermediate shaft is involved.
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It's in a Suzuki samurai which is a 4x4 so yes it's happening in car. I have a straight shot at the im shaft and lots of space to work. if I had it out I would have done more of an inspection/rebuild on the engine engine. Plus I would just get the crank inspected/ balanced.
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Holy Mackel Runnin Wild,
That level of wear seems excessive in my eye. I replaced those parts in my 1981 and I found one to have looked something like that but in comparison the loss of the plating I had would make it look new compared to those on yours. Is the crank all scuffed up as well then? Just putting in new smooth parts around a rough surface will just cause it to wear again.
Only one of my caps looked damaged. And I owe that to the cap coming loose and spinning one over the other.
So as for a suspected cause I would have to lean towards no oil pressure. Or very badly contaminated oil. There isn't a lot of flow between those parts that I can tell so once a shaving of coating of the metal comes off it seems to stay there and cause more problems.
Be sure to pre lube those places on the cap and crank or they will be dry when you first try to fire it up and you may be recreating this very condition you are trying to cure.
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The crank feels alright just a tiny ridge in the very middle of the bearing surface and you can barely feel it with your finger nail. Visually It definitely looks a bit scuffed but it feels more or less smooth to the touch other then that one ridge only on the one surface. I'm going to just go with it for now. If oil pressure drops again then I'll just pull the engine and rebuild the block.
I guess the 0 oil pressure at idle caused quite a bit of damage. I drove it for maybe 300km before I installed my oil gauge and realized the issue. I guess the original guy that pulled the engine was a bit dishonest in its condition. People suck!
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I had about an hour and a half to work on it today before it got too dark. Progress is slow as this is my first time doing any engine work beyond a head gasket, but I'm taking my time and trying to do it right and as clean as possible. I plastigauged the first rod and it came in at .02mm which is in spec from what ive found online (.01mm-.03mm). I didnt bother doing the other 3 as there was no abnomal wear on the crank or the bearings and Its hard to access everything as there isnt much clearance above my axle and the engine.
The good news is the rod bearings looked to be in great shape! None of them showed any extreme wear like the main bearings they all looked more of less like this, I was able to get all 4 of them replaced
(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20160919_180719_zpsbxv2ps6i.jpg) (http://s878.photobucket.com/user/mikeinaus/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160919_180719_zpsbxv2ps6i.jpg.html)
I'm having a bit of trouble getting the main bearings installed, I'm having trouble getting the upper bearings started between the journal and the bearing seat. The one i'm working on came out easy enough rolling it out with a cotter pin. Should I try and loosen all of the main bearing caps and see if the crank drops a little?
The oil pump bushing feels nice and smooth, Ive read these dont necessarily wear very badly. Should I bother replacing it? I bought one just in case but It might be better to hold onto?
Anyone have any idea how the rod bearings were in such good shape in comparison to the mains? I would think they would wear more or less at the same speed, if anything the rods first as they get their oil after the mains correct?
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My 2 cents - it's worth the extra effort to remove the engine from the vehicle so you can do this work in a more controlled manner. Am I reading your post correctly that you are trying to "slip" the bearings in between the crank and the block with the crankshaft still in place???
Steve.
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Yes that's correct. I've seen videos online and read a lot of guides that it's possible to do so. I don't have a hoist so pulling the engine isn't an option at this time.
I'm just gonna loosen all the main caps and try and drop the crank enough to fit in the bearings.
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Made some more progress. Its slow going as I don't have much daylight by the time I get to my truck after work. I have all the bearings and caps in finger right now. Loosening all the caps was enough to make rolling in the new bearings a breeze. I have to swap one of the lower bearings as the one with the 360 degree oil channel apparently goes in the number 4 bearing and not the number 3 like I assumed
Also just so its out there if anyone was wondering the 45mm rod bolts do work in the older style rods that originally had 43mm bolts, and the ARP studs for the ALH also work in the older aaz block that had shorter main bolts as well. The difference in size is pretty insignificant but I couldnt find any definite answers online about compatibility between the two styles.
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New bearings in currently idling at 177f oil temp and 15psi at the head. Huge improvement. Im assuming this is sufficient pressure. Havnt test drove it but revving the engine easily brings the pressure to 45psi+ I don't have a tach so no idea on rpm but I'd guess 3500-4000...
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Oil pressure at that temp is good. If you see it bump up on idle that is correct behavior. Hopefully you will see better mileage out of the fuel you use as you are not grinding on one piston anymore.
Glad it worked out for you.
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I swear something doesn't want me to drive this truck. Filled the tires and was about to go for a test drive and no brake pedal :(. Look under the hood to find an empty master cylinder, all the brakes are clean and no puddles anywhere so thinking it leaked into the booster. Cant catch a break with this thing lol.
(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20160925_160604_zpsbbqcty29.jpg) (http://s878.photobucket.com/user/mikeinaus/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160925_160604_zpsbbqcty29.jpg.html)
As for fuel mileage I dont really have a baseline. I havnt been able to put more then 2 tanks of fuel into the 2 diesels engines I've put in this truck in the past year. I'll just be happy to drive the thing but knowing my luck something else will break as soon as I fix the brakes.
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Sorry to see that followup. I makes me think of all these Craigslist ads I see from time to time. They have a huge list of items that have been recently replaced and somewhere in the description you read that they are just fed up with this thing breaking all the time. Then I know that folks have purchased said vehicle, fixed that broken item and have been free from breakdown for years afterwards.
Just keep at it. Someday it will be worth it. You can sit back and know all your work and labors paid off and now you can just drive it worry free. Or maybe not. You might just be waiting for the next part to go kaput.
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Lol yeah. I'm planning upgrades to replace practically every part on the truck so it'll eventually be good.
Assuming the wear on the crank doesn't chew up the new bearings within a few weeks it should be ok to drive for a while once i get the brakes sorted.
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The bearing damage is caused by lack of oil. You were probably just minutes from catastrophic failure. It would be best to polish the journals before you put the new bearings in, but that can be problematic with the engine in the car. It is of paramount importance to make sure that you flush ALL of the grit and flotsum and jetsum out of the oiling system and crankcase before you light it off or the bearings will be damaged at initial start up. Use the softest bearings that you can find when doing an "in chassis" repair like this. A soft bearing will embed any particles that get into the space between bearing and journal. This will push up a little crater of bearing material and prevent the grit from touching/damaging the crank. Hard bearings like CL-77s will cause the crank to be scored by the same particle. Hard bearings like CL-77s (tri-metal) will take a lot more abuse and have a longer service life, but require very clean oil to reap those benefits.
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replaced the mc and booster and my brakes are soft on the first push then good on the 2nd. Almost sure its not air in the lines as I've bled over 1/2 a liter of fluid and I'm not getting any bubbles. Anyways back to the topic at hand.
I just went on my first real test drive since fixing the engine. I drove roughly 50km, the entire time my exhaust temp never went above 1100f, my coolant never went above 200f. At high rpm my oil pressure peaks around 45psi, cruising is around 30psi and at idle I saw it as low as 6psi but was at 10psi for about a minute when I parked it. I dont think my gauge is super accurate as its very sensitive to electrical load on my vehicle. If i turn on the head lights or heater or even my stereo up high my oil pressure reading drops, and coolant/egt increase. Assuming 10psi is accurate at hot idle measured from the head with 15-40w oil is this sufficient, or did the wear in my crank just destroy my new main bearings?
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Given the information about the lack of faith in the gauge I would say get a mechanical one on there instead and then provide those readings. I wouldn't trust it at idle or anytime really.
Reserving judgement until better/trusted information is provided.
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Yeah I'll try and track one down. Is 10psi at hot idle sufficient though?
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your electronic senders & gauges would seem to have a wiring issue, possibly getting power and mixing up power and signals from other gauges, or a bad spot to have gotten power from(if you ran a new, separate wire from fuse box), or possibly bad grounding, check senders have grounding, and gauge as well. i in most cases rely on an analog gauge(temporary), just dont go out and get a cheapie, hate them, metric. get reading then.
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I have a pretty fancy electronic multi gauge (madman ems1). Its wired into my cluster I think. The wiring in the truck is 30 years old and has too much resistance which is throwing the readings off. I'll install a relay and power the gauge dirctly from the battery. I do eventually plan on upgrading most of the wiring in the truck but for now it's what I have to work with. All the wiring to and from the sensors and the sensors themselves are new, it's just the power source for the gauge that is iffy.
The good news is an increase in resistance causes the reading to drop rather then raise. Which should mean the actual pressure should be higher then what the gauge displays. Like I said with it parked after a long drive and my headlights and practically all my electronics off it was idling at 10psi.
At what oil pressure when measured from the head is considered too low and the engine shouldn't be run? I know I'll need to pull the engine and rebuild the block in the future, I'm just trying to figure out what is considered safe to drive at and when I need to park it and start working on it again? I've read 10psi for every thousand rpm is good which is right about what my gauge is reading most of the time...
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Bit of a new development. I drove another 120km on it yesterday. Oil pressure was pretty steady around 35-40psi while cruising on the highway. All of a sudden my gauge started going crazy jumping between 60-100psi multiple times a second. It did this for a few kms until I pulled over and let it idle a bit and the pressure dropped to 10psi. A few min later back on the highway it started doing it again. I got to my destination and parked for a few minutes and started it back up and oil pressure was normal again. On the return trip the gauge started going crazy on the highway again until it got to the point it was maxxed out at overrange (110psi) for the rest of the trip. When I was pulling into the gas station I noticed my gauge flashing check sender for a split second randomly for a few seconds.
Is it possible for the oil pressure to fluctuate super fast like that or is the sender most likely defective? Is it possible for it to even be pushing 110psi+ at operating temp pushing around 3500rpm?
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RunninWild, Since you asked like 3-4 times and still didn't get an answer I ran downstairs to get the Bentley.
Table III Tolerances, Wear Limits and Settings
F. Lubrication System
1 Oil Pressure
A. Warning Light goes out (through 1981) 2.1-6.4 psi
Warning Light goes out (1982 Jetta) 26 +/- 3.0 psi
Warning Light goes out (1982 and 1983 Rabbit and Pickup Truck and 1983 Jetta) pressure below 2000 RPM 2.1-6-4 psi
B. Normal Oil Pressure @2000 RPM with oil at 80 degrees C. (176 F) 28 psi
So it appears that 10 psi would be good at idle after a long run such as you describe.
Now the problem I see is that you can't begin to trust that data point. Not with the description you just gave of the 60- 100 psi bounce and then pegged at 110. You may have one "pretty fancy multi-gauge" piece of crapola. Or a very nasty connection at power or sender or ground or all three.
Is it possible for it to even be pushing 110 psi at operating temps at 3500 RPM you ask?
Well I hit that all the time at less RPM but it is in the morning within the first 3 miles of going to work. I am waiting to pop an oil filter some day. I think it is a result of a rebuild of an oil pump and I just put too much spring pressure against the relief in the pump. Once I get the oil hot. I run around 45 psi at 2000 RPM. At idle it drops to 30 or 25 depending on how hot the oil gets.
So watching the pressure at idle is not a spec RPM. Stop doing it. 2000 RPM is where you should be looking. OK, now you need to fix some stuff. Like I said, get MECHANICAL. That is the way I go with all my add on gauges. And I have plenty. I do have some electronic temp readouts for the Veg Oil system. Good to 185 F and until they get to 100 F they are to the tenth of a degree. Very large blue or red numbers, 1 inch tall.
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I think my readings are more related to my old wiring and I think my vdo oil sender is faulty. The truck is parked again for now. I will get the low pressure stock sensor installed and I'll see what I can do about finding some better gauges.
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When I was pulling into the gas station I noticed my gauge flashing check sender for a split second randomly for a few seconds.
this is a concern, for one, if it is your dash idiot light flashing, you definitely have low oil pressure at that time, and possibly other time(s), this idiot has 2 senders, 1 for mains, 1 sender for head.
one thing im might point out, your fluctuations in your oil pressure readings(your current gauge) are most likely due to your faulty wiring &/or ground.
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The engine isnt in a vw so I do not have the the oil pressure lights. My digital gauge was flashing check sender, which is something it typically does when a wire is disconnected or a sender is faulty. With the pressure being all over the map at a steady rpm, and the gauge errors I'm inclined to believe my sender is faulty.
Were your 1.6's you rebuilt turbo motors or n/a's? From what I've read turbos have less oil pressure, but I agree mine is probably a bit lower then optimal seeing as my crank had signs of wear and i didn't have it machined. I kind of cut corners on this as I wasnt able to pull the engine and have everything properly machined and put back together in a 100% clean and optimal setting. I'm planning on pulling the engine and completely rebuilding the bottom end, this was mainly meant to be a band-aid for the short term. Ideally I'll be able to get a year out of it and rebuild it next fall/winter.
I'm going to install a .5bar (7.25psi) oil pressure switch in the head and wire it up to a buzzer. Before my sender started going crazy I was having pretty decent pressure at higher rpm. I dont have a tach so I dont know exactly but cruise was around 30psi and high revs was around 45-50psi. Next weekend when I have some free time and with the new switch in the head I'll give the truck a good test drive 500ish km's. If it doesnt catastrophically fail and idle doesn't trip the buzzer I'm going to just consider it good until my idle pressure starts to drop and the buzzer sounds. I have a car I commute with so I wont be driving it all the time, it would just be nice to have a bit of peace of mind the thing isnt going to crap out at any moment.
Do cam bearings usually wear and effect oil pressure? Never even thought to have a look at them. Which bearing usually sees the most wear that would be worth having a look at?
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as i was thinking and you have reaffirmed, your crankshaft. running those bearings like that, with low oil pressure, if not -0-oil pressure, for how long,, took metal (well some anyways) off crank. right now @10psi oil pressure isnt too close to dangerous,.
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My trans is geared pretty small 5th gear at 100km/h is roughly 3275rpm, I usually cruise up to 120km/h at 3875rm and the fastest I've had it is 140km/h is about 4500 rpm.
Anyone familiar with the tdi oil pressure switches? partsplace lists it as .55-.85bar http://www.partsplaceinc.com/products/product-detail.aspx?keyword=VW+TDI+Oil+Pressure+Switch038-919-081&sku=17957 while it lists the 3 older style switches as a single rating. Does the range mean the sensor is only calibrated to somewhere between .55 and .85 bar? Maybe I'll just try something like this rated at 7psi https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crt-a68301/overview/
For that matter how much is the pressure difference between the filter flange and the head? Maybe the 1.4bar sensor hooked up as an idle pressure buzzer from the filter flange would be sufficient? Although 1.4 bar is probably fairly high for idle pressure even at the filter isnt it?
I'll also trying changing the oil and the filter again. I didnt change the filter when I did all the engine work so it might be a contributing factor, although it only has maybe 500km on it. Mann filter fyi
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always change oil filter when changing out oil.
so whats the deal with your head, is it new? cam is it new? or the old one,lifters?
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Head is original to the engine. I have a new head sitting under my bed though. Does wear in the heads usually contribute to low oil pressure on these engines? I did a bit of research last night and apparently these don't have cam bearings? Just the cam caps are line bored? How's that supposed to work without bearings?
I usually do change the filter with the oil. Only reason I didn't was because the filter was basically new...
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Cam works just fine without bearings. Cam caps hold it nice and straight and materials are matched well enough that WITH PROPER OIL PRESSURE you don't get wear. Ever see how much oil is pushed around up top with the engine running? Makes a heck of a mess of the engine compartment in a hurry.
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Ever see how much oil is pushed around up top with the engine running? Makes a heck of a mess of the engine compartment in a hurry.
thats funny. reminds me of when i wanted to see how much my dads type4 bus had oil at head, i pouring out.
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am surprised with how your lower end looked, and running with lack of oil pressure you didnt take a look at cam and caps, and prob lifters.
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Honestly didn't cross my mind. I'm new to engine work and don't know as much as I probably should. I'll pull some caps during the week and have a look
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yea you dont just pull cam caps, refer to book, you got to be careful of which caps you pull. #2 you dont just pull, you can easily bust a cap ruining your head. #1 for instance doesnt easily come up/off,
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Yeah rod, main and im shaft bearings are new. The rod bearings were in good shape and didn't have much wear. The outter im shaft bearing had some wear but wasn't as bad as the crank bearings.
I'll pull #3 and #5. If they show excessive wear I'll just swap on my other head.
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate all the help.
At this point my oil pressure is acceptable. If it starts to drop over time it's pretty obviously due to the wear on the crank and I'll deal with it when the time comes. I'm not going to be driving it much over the winter anyways. Id be happy if it makes it through next summer, then do a rebuild of the bottom end.
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-a--
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I did the front im shaft bearing. The rear looked in good shape and I didn't have a tool to pull it so I just left it for now.
Thanks for the tips on the cams. I'm not expecting to see much wear in them but it's nice to know I have a fairly easy fix if they are trashed.
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Got a chance to put 250km on it on tuesday with a bit of offroading thrown in. This engine is awesome on trails, I can idle up some pretty crazy inclines on ruff terrain and not even have to touch the throttle. The torque is amazing! Very happy with the performance for now.... Intercooler (mk4 jetta 1.8t) and a mechanical boost gauge (35psi auto meter) are on the way to help make street driving a bit more pleasurable.
I changed the oil and filter before the trip to rule out a plugged or partially plugged oil filter. There was a small amount of bearing material (small particles like dust/glitter) in the old oil I'm attributing to not machining the crank.
I wasnt able to track down a new oil sensor, or a mechanical gauge for that matter. During my trip the pressure was all over the place. I'm really thinking the sensor is bad (new one in the mail). 90% of the trip the sensor was reading over range (130psi+), sometimes it would flash input error (happens when the wire is disconnected or sensor isnt responding), it would occasionally give me typical readings (10psi at idle, 20-50psi while cruising). Is it safe to assume that if I was indeed pushing over 130psi for the better part of 250km something would have failed in that time? I'm assuming the oil filter or a seal would have blown out?
Anyways new sensor will be here next week, I'll put that on the filter flange and I'll install an oem idle pressure switch in the head and hopefully I'll get some better readings.
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so youve got a couple of problems evident there, from you prev posts;
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I know my wiring isnt the best, I will hook the gauge up to a relay and run it directly off the battery which should cause the readings to be more accurate. I dont believe that is whats causing the oil pressure to go out of range though. When it was working properly load on the system caused the oil pressure to read lower then it would with no load. Either the pressure in my system is completely inconsistent and all over the place and in general way too high (130psi or more), or more likely the sensor is malfunctioning. I was just wondering if it would be possible to drive the car for 250kms with oil pressure over 130psi for the majority of it without having something fail? For that matter lets say the engine is running at a steady 3000rpm, is it possible for the pressure to be jumping between 30-130psi multiple times a second? I was under the impression if there was a clog or a partial clog the pressure would still be more stable and relative to engine speed, just reading higher then normal. I'll be able to rule out if its a sensor issue next week I was just curious in the mean time.
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yea that aint gonna happen, hot getting a head oil pressure even to 20psi(w/hydro head), isnt gonna happen
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I've been fairly lazy lately and finally got around to installing my new oil pressure sensor which I installed at the filter flange. Started up fairly easy at -2c so compression is good. I don't have insurance on the truck but this is my reading after driving around the block a few times
(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/20161208_151307_zpsfxga8dvt.jpg) (http://s878.photobucket.com/user/mikeinaus/media/20161208_151307_zpsfxga8dvt.jpg.html)
Pressure was jumping between 17-19psi at idle but was on 19psi most of the time. Revving to somewhere around redline and the pressure reads 80-90psi and puts out around 30-50psi while cruising. I'm not getting the crazy pressure spikes like I was with the old sensor. Does this sound like normal pressure readings for that temperature at the oil filter or am I still reading a bit high?
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I would say you were at normal operating ranges. My pressure is in that zone when hot and does get high on the upper end of the upshifts.
Good not to have spikes so likely a bad sensor.
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Awesome! After a year and half of working in this thing I can finally relax and just enjoy it haha.