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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: gldgti on April 09, 2006, 04:55:43 am
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hi guys! its been a long time since i posted anything much on here, and a lot has hapenned with m golf (rabbit to you guys) since then. its lowered all round, has a fornt anti-roll bar, a new coat of blue paint and is looking quite tidy.
as you can imagine, a car that goes around corners fast is even better with power, which is something my 1.5 obviously lacks, and im not going to go through the old "how do i get more power?" routine... the engine mods already are:
1) timing advanced to optimal
2) 80mm intake pipe and modified airbox - cold ram air
3) 2" striaght back exhaust with dual downpipes
4) max fuel screw trick
to guess, i'd say ive gained 5-10 hp... well..., at speed, on a cool dry day it might be that anyway, the ram air helps a lot - but thats a truely arbitrary guess. anyway, thats about the limit to the modifications... this baby has done a lot of miles and is still reliable and economical (avg about 48mpg), though this is easy to wreck the economy with the fuel screw so far in.
the caar also runs on bio now and then... which seems to clean up the exhaust a LOT
anyway, apart from these modifications, i havnt dont a great deal to the engine... heres where my crazyness comes in...
i know that turbos and things seem to be too much fuss for a n/a engine, esp my 1.5... i hanve been thinking however about the feasibility of a supercharger...
my tentative plan is somehting like:
use petrol golf EFI manifold with long runners, and a toyota mr2 supercharger, belt driven with an electromanetic clutch, running low boost (in the range of 5-10psi).
any thoughts would be appreciated. i think this might be the kind of thing im looking for, something to give her some more power and torque right through the rev range, keep the exhaust free flowing and happy revving, and no pump mods since adjusting the fuel scre already gives me more than enough fuel all the time...
cheers guys,
aydan
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Yeah, I have access to a reasonably priced G60 from a MKII Golf G60 and wondered about fitting that to a Diesel.
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i think that the power available from a torquey diesel+the instant boost of a supercharger would be pretty hard to beat. but a supercharger still does the same thing as a turbo charger, so like everything has said repeatedly, oil squirters will be very desirable, unless of course you plan on not pushing the motor too hard.
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I asked the same question, and the answer I got was that the heroic cooling efforts are required on a turbo due to the increased exhaust backpressure. A supercharger will not have as much of a problem with heat so you could probably get away without the oil squirters, especially if you intercool without using an LDA (no LDA = less fuel = less heat).
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I wonder if the G60 will bolt into place in a Diesel, wonder if there are any clearance issues with the pump?
Would be nice to use all VAG parts.
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S'pose you have the added benefit of being able to use a 4-2-1 exhaust system also. Cooler under bonnet temperatures, infact it sounds ideal, there must be a reason why no one else has done it?
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i'd like to see any kind of a supercharged diesel, but a 1.5 seems even more neato to me.
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I read a thread on another site today... a Mitsubishi site... it seems
that a very common mod in the Diamond Star world is to ELIMINATE the
factory oil squirters... it seems there are some main cap oiling issues at high rpm that are fixed by plugging the factory squirters....
Which are essentially methods of heat control for the pistons..
I have also found BRAND NEW intercoolers.... alluminum fins, ends, and
polished for $200 to $300 .... I found them at this price from 3 different
companies...decreasing your charge air temp.. whether super or turbo
puts you ahead in the game....
I am currently headed this direction myself.. on a na 1.6..
thermal coating on turbo piston tops, chamber, valves.... $200 NEW intercooler, Rebuilt turbo at factory or modestly improved boost....
I sure don't want to sound like the enemy of squirters... if a td block
was avail to me I'd be on it... with the squirters on line...
but if the piston temp is being controlled with charge air temp and
heat barrier on top... and you're not going "boost nuts"..aren't you in
the green zone???
If you want to supercharge... Go for it... I like to see the home-brewed
power..but find a way to attack the heat.. better pistons, squirters, intercooler, thermal barrier coating whatever... good luck whatever you choose.. K
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Check out these cheap and nice intercoolers
www.alliancelink.com/users/joshdodge/ic1.html
www.spooledmotorsports.com
www.rabbidperformance.com/products.php?cat=29
If this isn't cheap enough for you.... print these prices and take'm to
the junkyard and have your used parts guy get you a Cooper S
intercooler for less...they are efficient and a nice small size.. would
also be easy to mount up front...
Kyle
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i agree, in alot of turbo diesel applications the oil squirters aren't needed, my dads friend has ran many many n/a engines with a turbo setup for years with out any problems. just i would that if you're going to be pushing the motor they'd be a good idea, turbo or supercharger, but it seems like that may be false with the info you 've shown here.
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thanks guys,
im glad to hear positive replies from all. it seemed to me that a supercharger would be the ideal solution with the 1.5, with it being a simpler engine, but happy to rev hard, and with no factory turbo bits available in australia.
i also liked the idea of having the good exhaust system like has been noted above, and hence keeping a "cool head" so to speak.
btw everyone, i've been reading with great interest about this bizzo of insulating precombustion chambers and, as an up and coming mehcanical engineer, and diesel enthusiast, i'm being sucked into a bit of an obsession i think. this may be my future.... so thanks guys.
aydan
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man that would be one powerful diesel. If you had the proper pulley you could probably get full boost at low rpm, making it a torque MONSTER. just lookout for bent rods if you go too low. A nice small one could give good results and maybe create a sleeper.
oil squirters for a supercharged engine? I'm pretty sure you don't need them for that. Main reason you need oil squirters is because the turbo will create back pressure and when the exhaust valve is open and the piston is pushing the exhaust gas out it will be working harder to do so, as well as soaking that heat right into the piston itself. You would need to be running some serious extra fuel to even need piston oil squirters without a turbo. Just get a free-flowing exhaust system and you're laughing. :lol:
I wonder how much a set-up like this would cost. I know you can get those pseudo turbochargers that basically have just the compressor side and a pulley connected to a high ratio gear mechanism. Would be do-able on a car without a/c for sure.
coating your pistons/valves etc wouldn't be necessary, but my guess is that it would help retain heat where it is needed most during cold starts. if you have the money great, if not... no big deal.
Good luck if you choose to undertake this project! And please post some pics of how it will look like :D
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aussie vw guys, they're crazy, from what i've heard theres next to no parts available, they gotta rip apart Seats...
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engines over there are fairly pricey too... since they last so long out in the warm climate.
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i hadnt really considered the 'all VAG' parts option of using a g60 supercharger... can anyone give me any info on these? i guess the big thing would be the option to possibly "bolt on" the charger in a good spot, however i'm not afraid of doing some fabrication and design work, so really, any suitably sized compressor would be fine, providing i could make it fit somehow.
also, can you guys tell me what i would actually need to have in the setup?.... im not really familiar with forced induction so im not sure...
on the macro-scale, i was sort of thinking, have the charger set up on a (i hope im not grilled for this :? ) vee belt, between the IP and alternator. i've got clear air into the engine bay with my aluminium grille so a cone filter very close to the charger itself would be next to the radiator. then, probably use a (as looking into engine bay from front) right hand exit EFI manifold from petrol golf, to plumb an intercooler (maybe scavenged from a volvo or saab, theres a few of them over here) between the manifold and the charger.
what i need to know about is what kind of stuff does a supercharger need so i dont do something bad to my engine.... i appreciate its got to be very different from a petrol engine setup, but is it as simple as having the charger running all the time, and it just blows and blows no matter what... or do i need some kind of pressure relief for when i'm not on the throttle....
thanks guys
aydan
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Heres a G60, looks like there could be room!
(http://www.matey-matey.com/dm_g60_12.jpg)
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The G60 should bolt up to the 1.5 block without problems, you might have to fiddle with the belts to get everything to line up but that's easy. Factory G60 cars had a pressure relief valve built into the throttle body, but that's something that the Diesel will not need. G60's have a reputation for being a bit fragile but properly cared for they will last a long time. I'm with everyone else here, you shouldnt need oil squirters- the boost and EGT will not be high enough to worry about. Also, any 8-valve counterflow headers made for gassers will fit the 1.5, which will add to the power and efficiency. If you're made of money, you could always slap on a Lysholm, they are bad-ass!
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/media/php/catalog.php?pid=603
Good luck, I say go for it.
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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The G60 might be in the way of the injection pump - not sure. Haven't had one in the garage in a little while.
I hadn't thought of turbos running higher piston temps than a supercharged engine - as typically, most superchargers run much higher air charge temps. I don't know, just throwing it out there for thought fodder.
I would love to see a supercharged 1.5/1.6 (base NA) engine, and with the cheapness of Eatons on ebay, it might be a very viable option for decent power without losing all of the economy. It takes a surprising amount of hp to spin a blower, but it has worked for a very long time. Keep us informed.
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Many serious(tanks, racing tractors, etc) diesel motors run both with max boost in the 60-90 PSI range
As I see it, the piston heating in turbo engines is mostly to do with having the ability to burn twice as much fuel per cycle=twice the heat generated. I don't think your EGT cares where the boost came from.
the Eaton unit found on Ford Supercoupes has a nifty bypass unit that reduces noise and wear at part throttle operation(how often you run a 1.5 at part throttle???). A wide range of pulleys, and several drive snouts are available. It has its own oil sump.
Power without losing the economy??? Turbos improve economy, its the driver that screws it up.
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I still believe that opening up the exhaust will reduce the back pressure enough to keep egt's very low with a supercharger. Until the turbo is fully spooled up, it generates quite a bit of back pressure which in turn keeps heat in the motor. Even fully spooled the turbo will have enough back pressure to do damage to critical engine components. True, that the extra fuel will add more heat, but then again a lot more of that heat will be sent through the downpipe and out the exhaust. When climbing certain hills I can see my engine temp rise quite a bit. I doubt it would if I had a supercharger.
If I was adding the supercharger to the 1.5 n/a, it would be merely to assist passing/hill climbing, and maybe that extra kick whenever I would need it. Supercharging would be much safer than adding a turbo, but definitely not yield the same performance enhancement. The HP loss is miniscule at best in the low rpm range, but would probably rob the motor at higher rpm just like the a/c pump.
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at the moment, the car has a free flowing 2" exhaust right back from the standard duel downpipes. i noticed a difference in running temp of the car immediately after this was installed 2/1/2 years ago...
a larger difference in running temperature occurred last year when i modified the airbox intake hole to take an 80mm intake pipe, and ran a pipe straight to the front to get cold ram air from the front of the car.. this made a big difference to my engine running temperature, plus increased power and torque noticable at low revs and high revs alike.
since modding the engine, compared with when i first got the car, my temperature guage (which still has the same thermostat as before) runs about 3-4mm on the cool side compared with originally... (our temp guages dont have measurements over here, just a red zone....i need an egt gauge..)
i'd say then that my mods have made the car run significantly cooler than a standard 1.5 - indeed, on the same trip, driving together, i've pulled up at destination with dad and compared engine bay temps with my dad (he also has a 1.5, unmodded, but with recently rebuilt bottom end and brand new head) and his golf is always warmer under the bonnet than mine.
im very keen to attempt this now - rather to make it work well.
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well, guys....
i've just come into posession of a supercharger.... bought it off ebay for $280AUD
its a "FUJI heavy industries" supercharger, off a small capacity car (suzuki i think). anyway, it was last on a "low revving 1.5l engine, producing 7psi". Sounds like the ticket!
its very small and compact, and im sure fabricating a bracket ofr it will be a piece of cake.
can anyone tell me now, what will i need in this setup to ensure i dont break my engine?
cheers
aydan
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hmmmm.... inspect it and make sure no parts from the supercharger will get passed through the intake manifold into your motor??? Make sure you mount it very secure. If it were to come loose, possibly something could get sucked into your motor and ruin it :( other than that you are good to go. I would consider a bigger pully to make more psi though :twisted: but you can do that after you install it and see how she runs with the 7 psi.
I dont think you should really need anything to protect your motor...
with 7 psi and some extra fuel, you should be able to scale steep grades with relative ease :D
Good luck!
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FUJI Heavy industries is Subaru I think, cars badged up as Subaru's but the chassis plate has FUJI heavy industries platered accorss the top!
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thats right, fuji heavy industries is subaru, and they make robin small industrial engines aswell.
also, they make parts ofr toyota and suzuki.
anyay...
how much boost do you guys think a 1.5 could handle? i was thinking 7 might be ok for an indefinite timescale, but what about 10 or 12? (more boost is good for me! :twisted:
the compression ratio of the 1.5 n/a is 23.5:1 ... so i was a little concerned about the idea of forced induction but im not to worried about 7 psi... thats onlt 1/2 atmospheric pressure extra...
cheers
aydan
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ill be sure to put some pics up soon too should you guys want to see just what im getting myslef into, hehe
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thats right, fuji heavy industries is subaru, and they make robin small industrial engines aswell.
also, they make parts ofr toyota and suzuki.
anyay...
how much boost do you guys think a 1.5 could handle? i was thinking 7 might be ok for an indefinite timescale, but what about 10 or 12? (more boost is good for me! :twisted:
the compression ratio of the 1.5 n/a is 23.5:1 ... so i was a little concerned about the idea of forced induction but im not to worried about 7 psi... thats onlt 1/2 atmospheric pressure extra...
cheers
aydan
well the way I think it works, is that the extra boost pressure gets compressed, thus increasing the compression by much more way more than stock 7 psi getting compressed 23.5 times over. I'm not sure how great the 1.5 head gaskets are, but that could possibly be an area of concern.
I would say test out with 7 psi, and look at upgrading ur HG if you decide to go with the bigger pulley :twisted:
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Power without losing the economy??? Turbos improve economy, its the driver that screws it up.
BUT, it's one of the few times you'll have fun screwing up :D !!
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I am not afraid to admit my weakness :lol:
i wold want piston squirters, and if going much over stock boost, consider going a size thick on the HG.
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I know i'm sounding like a ney-sayer, but with a 1.5L, I think you'll be useing half of your basic hp to crank the SC. Any net gains could be diminished by that. Maybe ok for dedicated hi-rev applications, but I think you'll only break-even off idle from combatting parisitic losses. But I've been known to be wrong also, just my 2 cents. Good luck!
Alain
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i'd thought about putting a thick head gasket in it.... it might be something i do... not sure how long it will take me to get all of this together, so by the time everythings ready to bolt the sc on, i might be wanting to do some other woprk too - we'll see.
since actually having the blower arrive, i've been able to research it a bit more... - its actually off a subaru pleo (not available in oz)...
guys with 1100 mini's seem to like adapting them for that setup and run them 12psi no worries moslty i think...
it is quite a small charger, and is extremely well engineered and put together - even for an old roots type, i reckon this should be quite easy to turn...
i'm hoping it'll make a fair difference since i notice little improvements at the slightest drop in ambient temp with my car now, and when im driving fast, with my ram air intake theres a good improvement from before aswell...
anyway, if its no good, i'll sell the charger, no biggie...
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you shoul definitely consider intercooling with your setup as well!
I doubt you would need piston oil squirters. Like I said in my post before, its the pistons exhaust stroke that spins the turbine. Back pressure means that the exhaust gases are under more pressure, and so the pistons are under more strain to expell them.
With this setup, there is virtually no added back pressure (unless you decide to turn up the fuel high enough :twisted: ). It would be as if you were running a/c all the time, and getting boost.
I have been doing more research on piston crown coatings (ceramic, etc), and it seems as though with some of those coatings, piston oil squirters are virtually unneccesary!
Just to safeguard yourself, get an EGT gauge with a decent pyrometer, and slowly adjust fueling and monitor temps. That way you dont go wrecking your otherwise healthy motor :)
Could you post some pics of the SC? :D
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(http://images4.pictiger.com/thumbs/39/e498eafa5eb75d84f04fbb0e2d3d2a39.th.jpg) (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/272490//ebay-charger.php) (http://images4.pictiger.com/thumbs/6a/b5f3ce20936200fe920910704710db6a.th.jpg) (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/272491//front.php) (http://images4.pictiger.com/thumbs/ab/204d603c442a6a01ca27af8e152740ab.th.jpg) (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/272492//rear-quarter.php) (http://images4.pictiger.com/thumbs/8e/c91532aa3454aa93543dc61a0516df8e.th.jpg) (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/272493//inside.php) (http://images4.pictiger.com/thumbs/36/d9fc6df6786848a3cc487b3d8876fa36.th.jpg) (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/272494//engine-bay-1.php)
Imagehost - PicTiger (http://www.pictiger.com)
the first pic is of the supercharger - this is the ebay pic, as i havnt photographed the charger yet. the other pics are of my blue smoker... soon to be whining and huffing i expect... :lol:
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Any Updates ... ???
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i'd thought about putting a thick head gasket in it
Don't change the headgasket thickness!!! It has nothing to do with compression ratio. If you go thicker, you'll fork up your squish area, and reduce turbulence in your swirl chambers. Your cold starts will be rough with clouds of unburnt fuel too.
Try to find an 11mm 1.6 head. That will lower your compression ratio, and if you run the same headgasket, you'll have good swirl and piston quench.
I turbo'd a 1.5. 1.5TD (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11786&highlight=) Plan on using a similar pump. More air is nice, but more fuel is necessary. Worked great, pulled about as good as a 1.6 on boost, but the off idle stuff was still pathetic. The block I used was cracked, so it got worse and worse till I had to park it. I'll be resurecting it with a 12MM block. I'll have some Raceware 11mm head studs available in the near future. Jeez, i have a brand new 11mm 1.6 head on it now that will be in excess too.
5hit can your stock 11mm head bolts. The insertion length uses less than half of the available threads in the block, and the holes in the corners of the block tend to crack out.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dieselkraftstoff/SSPX0179.jpg)
Get head studs, or longer grade 12.5 allen bolts.[/img]
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there was a question about updates...
this project is on the backburner, but i have a new partner in crime on this project who is also interested.
my main concern is getting my 1.6td up and running atm, but i have the 1.5 out of vehicle...
once the 1.6 is in, the 1.5 can go onto the engine stand and i can think about SC brackets.
turns out it would be a great combination for hillclimbing, autocross here in australia... since you get a disp*0.8 advantage for diesel, and a disp*1.3 penalty for forced induction, it'd come out at about 1570cc, which fits into the under 1600cc class! WOOT!
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that math also works for turbo, is lag a problem on those applications?
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Once it was rolling my 1.5TD didn't really have a lag problem. Pulled all 5 gears. It would cruise comfortably in 5th above 65 MPH, below that forget it, had to be in 4th. It had gobs of power on boost.
Off boost, it was the same lowly 1.5. Nothing off of idle. Probably have to increase the idle significantly so the poor thing can spin the Kompressor.