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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on June 25, 2015, 07:35:58 am
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I am doing a clutch job on my 92 Jetta 1.6 Ecodiesel. While in there, should I (or should I not) replace the rear main seal on the crank? I've read the rear main seal is the least likely to leak of all the seals in the engine and tranny. My does not leak currently (I do not see any black oil drips from the bell housing). I'll have a closer look once I remove the pressure plate and retainer.
The parts needed are around $145 genuine VW or $30 aftermarket (Elring)
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products?keywords=068103171f
[/size]https://www.fcpeuro.com/products?keywords=026103181b[/size][size=78%] [/size]
Should I replace it or leave it alone since it is not leaking? Is the Elring (that is much cheaper) any good or only the genuine VW will work with no leaks?
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You should just be able to replace the seal without the entire housing no? I'd do it depending on the mileage just for peace of mind.
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I used aftermarket last time with no problems so far... I put in the type with the carrier and gooped the bottom at the oil pan after a good cleaning/degreasing. (did not change the oil pan gasket).
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You should just be able to replace the seal without the entire housing no? I'd do it depending on the mileage just for peace of mind.
Yes you can but it is tricky to get it right from what I've read, being such a big seal. I saw a video where some kind of round cup support for the inner lip of the seal is used while driving it in. And I've read that some use a lid from a margarine tub as support. By using the flange/seal assembly, you eliminate some of those seal alone potential problems.
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I used aftermarket last time with no problems so far... I put in the type with the carrier and gooped the bottom at the oil pan after a good cleaning/degreasing. (did not change the oil pan gasket).
Was yours leaking or you replaced it as preventive? I will get the Elring flange. They are in stock at FCP and I will pick them up Saturday instead of having it shipped, which will take longer, they are not far from here.
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I changed mine as a preventative measure.
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I left mine alone when I found out mine was not leaking when I swapped my tranny 5 years ago. Still no leaks.
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i don't mess with them unless they are leaking. i had a bad experience once where i got 2 bad rear main seals so i had my transmission in and out 3 times. so now if its not leaking i leave it alone.
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i don't mess with them unless they are leaking. i had a bad experience once where i got 2 bad rear main seals so i had my transmission in and out 3 times. so now if its not leaking i leave it alone.
What brand seal was it? Was it a seal that you drove in or flange/seal assembly?
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they were both seals i drove in, the first one i don't know the brand of, it looked like a good seal but it came from a friends parts storage, the second one was a napa brand seal but looked like a cheap ***ty one, and the last one was oem and sealed fine. i love napa and they do carry good seals especially on their altrom line but what ever that one was it sucked and was only single lipped and made out of a ***ty rubber. i was in highschool so i just tried it.
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Just the seal or seal and carrier,... both need the "sour cream" container slid over the crank so the lip doesn't snag on the crank and flip.
If installing just the seal; it has to be parallel to the crank. Not just lined-up with the seal carrier edge.
Look at how it sits in the carrier before you remove it. You'll see it.
I use an old pressure plate and some spacers:
a spacer washer from a dasher alternator pully sits flat with the end of the crank.
I cut a washer the size of the seal and it sets the seal square with the crank.
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1) It is usually not a good idea to mess with any seal that is hard to get at without a good reason. A good reason might be that it is already leaking or the motor was severely overheated.
2) Cheap vinyl (black) seals are crap and wear out fast even if prelubed. W/O prelube service life can be weeks. Avoid them like the plague. ALWAYS use a Viton (red) seal if there is one available.
3) ALWAYS prelube the seal lip with a light coat of grease. This keeps it from wearing out very fast. Many OEM factory rear seals come pre-greased when you buy them. Eventually oil will lube the seal so that dry rubber is not running on hot dry steel, but by then the seal is damaged and will have a short service life. Install the outside DRY, if it will go in that way. NEVER put oil, grease, or any kind of sealer on the outside of the seal as this may cause it to pop out from a very small amount of crankcase pressure. If you need a lubricant to get a tacky Viton seal in its bore use a little brake cleaner or the like. Something that will evaporate and let the seals tacky outside hold it in position later. If you just have to use RTV see 3a.
3a) RTV is a lifesaver and a curse rolled into one. If you are going to use it on the outside of the seal, make sure that is COMPLETELY cured before running the motor or getting oil on it. That means at least 24 hours. Oil on uncured RTV makes it turn to Jello and never set up. Always use RTV labeled "OEM". This stuff is what the factories use and it is MUCH better than anything with a label like "Super Blue" or "High Temp". Buy it at the Ford or GM store if you have to.
4) Protect the inner lip if there is any chance of it being cut during installation. Usually any shaft that has a lip seal on it will have some kind of bevel on it to prevent seal damage on installation. Always check and make sure nothing damages the lip. Lip damage is much more likely if the seal is dry rather than prelubed.
5) Seal drivers are best, but they can be started with your fingers, if you are strong, and then seated with soft taps from a LIGHT hammer. This takes a deft touch, so if you are a ham fisted goon, use a seal driver.
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Just the seal or seal and carrier,... both need the "sour cream" container slid over the crank so the lip doesn't snag on the crank and flip.
If installing just the seal; it has to be parallel to the crank. Not just lined-up with the seal carrier edge.
Look at how it sits in the carrier before you remove it. You'll see it.
I use an old pressure plate and some spacers:
a spacer washer from a dasher alternator pully sits flat with the end of the crank.
I cut a washer the size of the seal and it sets the seal square with the crank.
What about installing a seal/carrier assembly? Is the seal guaranteed to be parallel to the crank? Or do you have to make it parallel with the contraption you have devised?
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1) It is usually not a good idea to mess with any seal that is hard to get at without a good reason. A good reason might be that it is already leaking or the motor was severely overheated.
2) Cheap vinyl (black) seals are crap and wear out fast even if prelubed. W/O prelube service life can be weeks. Avoid them like the plague. ALWAYS use a Viton (red) seal if there is one available.
3) ALWAYS prelube the seal lip with a light coat of grease. This keeps it from wearing out very fast. Many OEM factory rear seals come pre-greased when you buy them. Eventually oil will lube the seal so that dry rubber is not running on hot dry steel, but by then the seal is damaged and will have a short service life. Install the outside DRY, if it will go in that way. NEVER put oil, grease, or any kind of sealer on the outside of the seal as this may cause it to pop out from a very small amount of crankcase pressure. If you need a lubricant to get a tacky Viton seal in its bore use a little brake cleaner or the like. Something that will evaporate and let the seals tacky outside hold it in position later. If you just have to use RTV see 3a.
3a) RTV is a lifesaver and a curse rolled into one. If you are going to use it on the outside of the seal, make sure that is COMPLETELY cured before running the motor or getting oil on it. That means at least 24 hours. Oil on uncured RTV makes it turn to Jello and never set up. Always use RTV labeled "OEM". This stuff is what the factories use and it is MUCH better than anything with a label like "Super Blue" or "High Temp". Buy it at the Ford or GM store if you have to.
4) Protect the inner lip if there is any chance of it being cut during installation. Usually any shaft that has a lip seal on it will have some kind of bevel on it to prevent seal damage on installation. Always check and make sure nothing damages the lip. Lip damage is much more likely if the seal is dry rather than prelubed.
5) Seal drivers are best, but they can be started with your fingers, if you are strong, and then seated with soft taps from a LIGHT hammer. This takes a deft touch, so if you are a ham fisted goon, use a seal driver.
Thanks for the detailed post Toby! I have a question on 2). Are there any aftermarket VW rear main seals made from Vinyl? I thought most seals are made from NBR (Nitrile Buna Rubber) and biodiesel resistant seals are made from Viton.
Can you tell what a seal is made of from color alone? I bought the Elring rear main seal/carrier and it is black. I have a red rear main seal from a seal kit from Prothe and it is red. So The Prothe seal is Viton and the Elring is Vinyl? I wonder what color is the VW OE seal? I'll take some pictures of them and post later.
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Just the seal or seal and carrier,... both need the "sour cream" container slid over the crank so the lip doesn't snag on the crank and flip.
If installing just the seal; it has to be parallel to the crank. Not just lined-up with the seal carrier edge.
Look at how it sits in the carrier before you remove it. You'll see it.
I use an old pressure plate and some spacers:
a spacer washer from a dasher alternator pully sits flat with the end of the crank.
I cut a washer the size of the seal and it sets the seal square with the crank.
What about installing a seal/carrier assembly? Is the seal guaranteed to be parallel to the crank? Or do you have to make it parallel with the contraption you have devised?
Probably installed parallel to the machined rear side of the seal carrier,.. which is square with the block/crank.
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Thanks for the detailed post Toby! I have a question on 2). Are there any aftermarket VW rear main seals made from Vinyl? I thought most seals are made from NBR (Nitrile Buna Rubber) and biodiesel resistant seals are made from Viton.
Can you tell what a seal is made of from color alone? I bought the Elring rear main seal/carrier and it is black. I have a red rear main seal from a seal kit from Prothe and it is red. So The Prothe seal is Viton and the Elring is Vinyl? I wonder what color is the VW OE seal? I'll take some pictures of them and post later.
I have seen vinyl rear main seals, but it's all about what came on todays boat from china. If you want to buy a box car load of chartreuse rear main seals some chinaman will sell you all you want.
Red almost always means Viton or NBR. These seals are soft and pliant like rubber they are. Vinyl is harder and not at all stretchy.
Why would anybody buy the seal and carrier? Its much easier to just replace the seal All of this worrying about getting them parallel to the block is a bunch of silliness. If it is straight in the carrier you are good to go. Just feel around with your finger. If the seal is at the same level as the edge of the bore, you are good to go.
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I have bought the seal in the carrier as that is how the Teflon ones come. They take m7 bolts, but are supposed to last forever and do not cut into the crank. A little pricey as the last one I bought was 35.00
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I have bought the seal in the carrier as that is how the Teflon ones come. They take m7 bolts, but are supposed to last forever and do not cut into the crank. A little pricey as the last one I bought was 35.00
Where did you buy the Teflon one and how much? Does it have a spring under the seal lip? The Elring seal/carrier I just bought does not have a spring which is concerning. I'll post some pics shortly.
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This is the Elring from FCP https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/audi-volkswagen-engine-crankshaft-seal-rear-068103171f
It does not have a spring under the seal lip- wtf? The rubber also looks and feels weird. I don't have a good feeling and will not be putting it in and will return it.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150629_173339_zps3bvsuctc.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150629_173339_zps3bvsuctc.jpg.html)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150629_173331_zpsrutm63df.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150629_173331_zpsrutm63df.jpg.html)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150629_173147_zpshneqdhli.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150629_173147_zpshneqdhli.jpg.html)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150629_173126_zpsbelkgrnv.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150629_173126_zpsbelkgrnv.jpg.html)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150629_173113_zpsftzckeqf.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150629_173113_zpsftzckeqf.jpg.html)
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Further looking I find the tag on the box the Elring seal came in says:
SP LD PTFE/ACM
1 stuck 804.850
4 041248 051320
I was not able to find the above numbers in Elring's online catalog, just the following general info on their line of seals:
Per this pdf ACM is another material (polyacryl rubber) http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/RWDR_VSD/Elring_RWDR_Bauarten.pdf (http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/RWDR_VSD/Elring_RWDR_Bauarten.pdf)
http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/RWDR_VSD/Elring_RWDR_Bauarten.pdf (http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/RWDR_VSD/Elring_RWDR_Bauarten.pdf)
http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/PDFs/Montage_RWDR.pdf (http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/PDFs/Montage_RWDR.pdf)
http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/PDFs/Montage_PTFE_RWDR.pdf (http://www.elring.de/fileadmin/Dateiablage_DE/1Produkte/PDFs/Montage_PTFE_RWDR.pdf)
I emailed Elring to get product info on the seal.
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All you need is a $7.70 seal from autohausaz part number 068103051G
THIS is the seal you need....period. No pink ribbons, no French tickler, no nothing else......just THAT.
And, a little common sense while installing it.
Use a conical piece of plastic with light grease or Vaseline (to slide it into place) and then push it into place with your thumbs. Then use a small piece of flat wood to ensure placement around the perimeter.
That's it.....no waving of hands.....no endless discussions.....no holding your breath and turning blue.
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fatmobile, I found this youtube video by a guy who is a pro mechanic (I think). At 1:13 he taps the seal in with a hammer. Is that going to be a fail? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXyLd0V-pLI
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Tapping it in or getting it started with a hammer is a good way to go.
I like the way he tapped evenly around the edge.
With such a large seal it's hard to get it all started at once.
I start it the same way, until the inner lip is past the edge of the crank.
I don't like that he never mentioned greasing the seal lips before install.
Like many who think it's silly.
I never used to look at the seal before or after removal.
Just tapped it flush with the surface of the seal carrier.
At some point the misalignment became too obvious to ignore.
Some times it works.
They might have changed the later seal carriers so they are more square on the outside surface.
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I've been busy with personal matters and will be getting back into it and finishing up the clutch job and other side jobs. After much research, I will be replacing the rear main seal with the Teflon seal/carrier afterall, even though the current one is not leaking. I will take some measurements of the old seal/carrier to see if the carrier flange is square. A visual of the old seal/carrier appears it is square, i.e. the seal is not cocked relative to the flange outer lip.
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Offered as an anecdote, what my machinist friend told me.
He's worked at an automotive machine shop for 12 years, doing nothing but rebuilding engines. He does initial tear-down and cleanup, specifies parts to be ordered, and does the final assembly. Someone else bores blocks, someone else builds heads, etc.
The shop he works at warranties their engine builds against leaks. So a rear main seal leaking means that he gets to replace it for free.
He says that around 8 years ago, it seemed like brown rubber seals were coming back more often than black, graphite impregnated seals. So he started placing bets, when he heard that an engine was coming back for a new seal, that it was brown.
And he was almost always right.
Two other things.
At his shop, the old seal gets pressed out of the carrier, and the new seal is installed thermally. Which is to say, they have a hot plate that they heat the carriers on, and then when it is hot enough they drop the carrier onto a stainless steel table, drop the seal into the carrier, and simply wait for the carrier to shrink around the seal.
Aside from that, seals never go onto the engine dry. Whether you oil them or grease them? I dunno.
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seal is in!
Old seal/carrier off surfaces cleaned. The new Teflon seal/carrier does not need the paper gasket.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150712_104755_zps9hsoyohh.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150712_104755_zps9hsoyohh.jpg.html)
I applied a thin layer of non hardening sealant (Loctite 30515) all around the flange mating surfaces. Note how the provided cup sits. The cup bottom is wider than the lip and the bottom sits against the crankshaft, as the flange to pushed towards the crank, the seal lip is spread apart as it goes over the crank nose.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150712_110159_zpstlgvytrc.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150712_110159_zpstlgvytrc.jpg.html)
carrier bolts in torqued to 15 ft lbs
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/20150712_111332_zpshxb1nga0.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/20150712_111332_zpshxb1nga0.jpg.html)
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After you do a rear main seal, do you test it by running the engine before putting the tranny back on or do you trust the quality of the seal (and the quality of your work) and test it by driving?
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All this seal talk and no mention of wear marks on the crank with these high mileage motors.
That has been the single biggest problem I've had with leaking seals(new ones) on old cars, of any sort, ever.
Speedysleve and readysleeve are good stuff.
(and factory Porsche RMS are black fwiw) :)
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I've finished rebuilding a bone-stock 1.6TD with 231K miles: The crank main and rod journals were unmarked and measured for stock size bearings (no oversize at all!!)
but the crank rear seal surface and both of the IM shaft surfaces were prominently grooved from the stock seals so that you could easily feel them with a fingernail - - with two grooves on the crankshaft rear seal.
I used ready sleeves for all three and hope for another 200-250K.
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................
Like many who think it's silly.
I never used to look at the seal before or after removal.
Just tapped it flush with the surface of the seal carrier.
At some point the misalignment became too obvious to ignore.
Some times it works.
They might have changed the later seal carriers so they are more square on the outside surface.
I got a micrometer and accurately measured the old flange thickness all around to be 0.626", so it is square. The old seal (marked W. Germany) sits flush with the flange. Tapping in a new seal flush to the old flange that I have will result in a seal that is square to the crank nose journal. I does not matter in my case since I replaced it with a Teflon seal/flange assembly.
It does not make sense to me why the flange would be made so it is not square. Can you think of any reason why that would be done?
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All this seal talk and no mention of wear marks on the crank with these high mileage motors.
That has been the single biggest problem I've had with leaking seals(new ones) on old cars, of any sort, ever.
Speedysleve and readysleeve are good stuff.
(and factory Porsche RMS are black fwiw) :)
Good point! My engine with 230K miles has no seal grooves worn into the crank nose journal. Nothing I can feel with my fingernails, it is nice and smooth with no pitting, just 2 light bands of discoloration. Is that just burned rubber?
As for speedy sleeves, how do you find the right size? I called up SKF techline and asked the same question and the gal who answered says if it is not listed by application, then go by the seal size. I said what about the width of the speedy sleeve? She said it does not matter. I think I'd be more comfortable with knowing the shaft diameter rather than going by just the seal size.
I want to put a speedy sleeve on the ACN tranny flange seal. The passenger side is a little pitted and leaking slightly. Do you know what size I need? It's the 90 mmm flange.
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I found them by painstaking measurement and pouring over the catalogs for 020 output shaft flanges once a few years ago.
Worked real well, but was damn time consuming finding them manually so to speak.
I like when they design stuff, or the replacement seals, so that you can alter the installed depth and get the seal on
virgin metal when there is a groove worn too.
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I found them by painstaking measurement and pouring over the catalogs for 020 output shaft flanges once a few years ago.
Worked real well, but was damn time consuming finding them manually so to speak.
I like when they design stuff, or the replacement seals, so that you can alter the installed depth and get the seal on
virgin metal when there is a groove worn too.
Do you have the p/n of the speedy sleeve for the 90 mm output flange? The install tool (the cup used to hammer the sleeve in) must be deeper than usual to clear the spline stub.
The speedy sleeve p/n 99196 that SKF gave me looks like the sleeve is the right one but the tool cup is too shallow at 24.99 mm = not gonna work, unless you drill a hole to clear the stub. Is the cup strong enough after drilling a big hole in the middle?
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt%3d99196%26Ntk%3dKeyword%26Nty%3d1%26Dn%3d0%26D%3d99196%26Dk%3d1%26Dp%3d3%26N%3d0 (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt%3d99196%26Ntk%3dKeyword%26Nty%3d1%26Dn%3d0%26D%3d99196%26Dk%3d1%26Dp%3d3%26N%3d0)
http://www.skf.com/binary/26-128020/11337_2-EN-SKF-Speedi-Sleeve.pdf (http://www.skf.com/binary/26-128020/11337_2-EN-SKF-Speedi-Sleeve.pdf)
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No PN, been awhile ago, I can't even remember what brand it was but there are only a couple outfits that make em. I think it was european.
Didn't use their tool, I cobbled something together, wasn't fun. If I had to do it again I'd buy the sleeves and take it all to a machine shop
and have them make a piece to press them on, and have them do so. Or, weld it up and turn it down to stock.
Solution two is swap to a newer trans, and I think that's a better option all around.
Solution three is quit buying old leaky ass VW's :)
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Just found these new flanges for $30 from Germanautoparts http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Transmission/80/2
Has anyone here used them?
If these are good quality flanges, it does not pay to use speedy sleeves, which cost more than a new flange, then you have to install it and possibly F it up if not done right.
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VW had problems with those flanges the entire time the 020 was in use, and they changed them quite a bit, not just the 90/100mm either, adding the springs
behind them was a first step. There is a good thread on it somewhere on vortex from years back, they started heat treating them eventually, and it was like a GKN CV joint where you could
see the blueing of the metal where it was heat treated. Supposedly the very late, visibly heat treated pieces had a pretty decent rep, I never had any.
They were NLA from VW last time I messed with them.
$30 a pop is still pretty cheap though, even if they only last a year or two. I imagine they are chinese but that might very well be OK these days.
Make sure you get the old or new style 90's as needed. GAP isn't specifying in that add. brokevw has info on his site.