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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ORCoaster on June 08, 2015, 07:55:16 pm
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Ok here's my recent sob story.
I am working on a 1.6 NA diesel in a 1980 Dasher. I have tried the following things to get this engine to stop boiling the water out of it at Idle.
1. New Water pump. Standard on from NAPA, I think 40 mm hub.
2. New 190, 160 and ran it last with no thermo.
3. Fan on constantly with no Thermo is 160 degrees at Idle.
4. Blew out the heater core so I know water passes through it. Hose check with hands verifies flow as well.
5. All new hoses
6. Engine recently rebuilt head gasket on right side of bulge on head. 3 notch.
7. Timed to .88 mm two days ago and pump recently rebuilt.
8. Radiator in good condition, no missing cooling fins or damage.
I have never seen an engine run this hot, Mine will barely warm to the middle of the gauge at idle. Granted it was 100 in the sun here in Idaho but still not to come down except with the fan on 100 percent? What kind of Ideas might your mind be telling you. I am tapped out, mostly due to the 100 degree heat.
Let me know what I am missing. I can't think what might cause this. Thanks
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head warped allowing combustion gasses to enter the coolant?
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srgtlord- Nope, not an issue with pressurized hoses. Only once it starts to boil does it really tighten up the top rad hose.
Swing and a miss.
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Perhaps radiator or engine internal coolant passages are clogged, not enough flow through them to effectively cool.
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I am beginning to lean towards the internal passages of the block because I did get the boiling water to cool at the bottom of the radiator by forcing the fan to turn on and stay on.
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It will overheat in about 2 miles if you drive it without a t stat, so don't drive it.
What in the world does Engine recently rebuilt head gasket on right side of bulge on head mean???
Timing is too retarded but shouldn't make up that big of deal with temp.
You blew out the heater core but not the rad???
How did you fill it? Could it still have air in system?
Who rebuilt it? What did they do? Did they check to see if the block/head was flat?
And of course, did you check to see how hot "too hot" was other than the vw 30 year old temp gauge was running higher than another one?
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"Oben" means up in kraut on that head gasket. Just wondering......
Generally, troubles accompany lack of attention to details............
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Could the cluster be off? Cluster regulated voltage is 10 volts, you may want to check that out.
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92 Eco- This is a diesel engine, so I am not sure about the cluster thing. Although this is kind of turning into a cluster of its own, if you know what I mean.
Dakotakid- If the identification tab which shows the gasket as a three tab is on the right side of the bulge in the center of the head isn't that the proper direction for the gasket? Wouldn't that be the Oben side up?
That is what I meant to say there theman53. The tab is right of center.
As to the rest of your questions so you can continue to scratch your head too.
Only idling the engine in the drive for now, that way I could kill it when it would show the first burp of overheating.
Your statement about timing being retarded has me looking at the manual. This engine is a 1.6 NA Diesel taken from a Rabbit so don't we start at .88 mm and work towards 1.03 mm for advancement? Manual for the 1.5 L which was removed says .86 mm.
I did blow out the Rad and it cools just fine with the fan on for awhile. I can comfortably put my hand on the bottom of the radiator but not on the top when the fan is on.
Filling the system by taking off the hose on the top of the radiator and pouring water into it. Hot lever to the hot side when filling. I checked all over the different hoses to be sure they were circulating water, heater core was pumping out hot air when I checked.
My son rebuilt the engine. His first time with a diesel but is an engineer by profession and has very good mechanical skills, very good equipment and a shop that I lack. He lives in Idaho and I live 14-16 hours away. But I am here in ID, for other reasons and I was trying to assist after the rebuild.
He had the head flattened at the local machine shop so yes it is flat. No pressure building in the hoses at all.
Temperature gauge is not the VDO gauge but a second one off the back of the head. And when the temperature starts to boil the water that gauge is right on the 210 degree line. VDO gauge is about 3/4 of the way to the right of center when it gets that hot.
Ok, that is the end of the extra information.
Thanks for thinking when I can't.
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Head is flat what about the block? Also, my gasket the "tab" goes left, I think it depends on mfg of the gasket, but they should all say top or oben on them. 210 with water should boil if the cap is off and 210 is not too hot. It is getting there, but even my old jetta would run 220 when it was really hot out. I would bank that there is still air in there and don't run it with no t stat, that is worse than running a tire with a football growing off of it.
The timing should be .90 at the min and .95 for max on the 1.6na, the 1.5 had the yellow dot and should have been timed to 1.15 IIRC. Why didn't you bring the probe? Retarded timing should raise temp.
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OK, thanks for those numbers.
I did bring the Lumy and associated gear and we did use it to get the timing set. I measured it with the dial gauge as well and thought those numbers would be most familiar to folks. I think I will suggest he bump the pump towards the engine a tad as this is the 1.6 and not the 1.5 L. Almost forgot about the swap.
My son is getting disgruntled with the problems of this 1980 Dasher and is talking about just unloading it as it isn't working well enough for him to use as a daily driver for his 10-12 mile to work trip. He has a gas car that gets 38 mpg so the diesel was more about being able to use the veg oil for cheap fuel and have a less clean car for the dog to jump around in.
Thanks again.
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"92 Eco- This is a diesel engine, so I am not sure about the cluster thing. "
If the voltage regulator in the cluster is off, so will all the gauge readings, does not matter if the cluster is gas or diesel, they both use the same regulator, set at 10 V. Did you verify gauge readings with an IR thermometer?
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The timing spec would probably contingent on the use of one of the original 'famed" yellow dot pumps.
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Did you check temp with classic termometer in overflow jar?
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Dakotakid The original pump was the rebuilt 1.5 L engines' but with the 1.6 block, pistons and head I would tend to go towards that timing rather than the pump. We swap them around all the time and I don't recall any caution to watch where it comes from and time to it versus the engine.
Mtrans the secondary gauge hits 210 on the line and within 20 seconds the water is starting to bubble up out of the overfill. I think it is accurate enough for telling me degrees versus the VDO line floating someplace between here or there.
My son did say when he had it apart the first of two times he did not do the head flattening and the gasket was not sealing. So that is when we talked block and head tolerances. Even with the gasket sealed it ran well and didn't heat like it is now. Upon redoing the head he said some of the valve clearances were no longer in tolerance and he heard a couple tapping the piston on start up, He immediately shut it down and changed those to be in spec, no compression loss but I am wondering if some how the are still a problem.
I have returned to Portland and at weeks end return home. I couldn't fix anything but the bad smoke problem for him. He had the IP 180 degrees out and upon flipping the pulley with the timing check it no longer does that and has much better power.
His engine is a lot tighter than mine. You need a long breaker bar to turn it over by hand. Where as mine I can do with a 17 MM wrench or 1/2 inch ratchet. Could that be generating the heat, too much friction somewhere along the line? Friction does equal heat, we all know that, and with what appears to be a working cooling system I am now chasing the heat generation side of the equation.
Any thoughts there? Valves on head too long? Crank too tight?
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No, valve length should only come into play with hydro. heads (which have to be checked for appropriate height after cutting seats, etc.). In this case, shimming is the only "play" to make. Not comfortable with this whole "I heard the valves hit the pistons" thing.
I have heard of guys trying to keep dirt out of places (while mechanic-ing) and leaving small rags in passages while assembling.
I have heard of plastic-impellered (new or not) water pumps: 1) simply not rotating on their shafts as they should and 2) the plastic impellers not properly "clearanced" and they actually make contact with the rear hemisphere of the water pump (and will not rotate) as the front of the water pump is placed and tightened down.
The breaker-bar crank saga is a real trip. Sky's the limit there....................
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I wasn't comfortable with the valve info either so I told him to lift the head again, check condition, replace valves if necessary and reset the head. While open look for rags and such as you say, sometimes stuff stays in place until you remove it.
Waterpump is new metal impeller and we played with the idea that the original was wrong in that we expected to need a clockwise one and it was a counter. But it seems that there is plenty of flow back to the reserve tank and radiator when running. That is what is so frustrating here is that there appears to be plenty of movement of water but the water is just hotter than I think it should be. Like 200 versus 160 as the thermostat says it should be.
We will just have to wait for my son to pull the head and see what that looks like. All other possibilities are accounted for less the stuff of the block for Thanksgiving dinner.
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Ermm... the engine was apart twice before the head resurfacing? I presume for a head gasket leak? Did it overheat before the resurfacing?
I'd check for gasses in the expansion tank... it sounds like classic bad gasket or jacket crack.
Let's assume the last gasket was properly placed, if the oil pressure sender was working.
Also suggest Hylomar on the next gasket for good measure.
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Yes, my son had a bunch of pieces delivered to him in the back of a trailer and he proceeded to put them together with the assistance of the Bentley manual. The assumption was that the block and the head were good to go. I didn't measure it out for tolerance before I sent it out to him.
So he put it together and ran it just fine, then it started to produce pressured hoses and pooped out one of the freeze plugs. So I had him resuface the head. That was second rebuild on the head gasket.
So we should look for a bad jacket around the cylinders. Wouldn't that produce pressure in the hoses? We don't see that happening.
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If it has a 1.5 yellow dot pump and injectors that is the timing, not for 1.6 just because it is 1.6...come on don't you take the pumps apart?
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All the pumps I have had apart are 1.6 engine pumps. So I have not seen any differences. I sent him a 1.6 engine pump that is still in the box on his shelf. Maybe he should through it on instead of the newly rebuilt 1.5?
What do you think on that one?
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So he put it together and ran it just fine, then it started to produce pressured hoses and pooped out one of the freeze plugs. So I had him resuface the head. That was second rebuild on the head gasket.
So we should look for a bad jacket around the cylinders. Wouldn't that produce pressure in the hoses? We don't see that happening.
The hydrocarbon test is definitive. I'd start there.
It can take a while... Mine had to start boiling to show evidence, but the head gasket fixed it.
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Gotta chime in here. It's a Dasher diesel wagon... one of my favorite practical VW packages; lots of utility & economy @ less than 2300 LBS!
Could it be that, once the engine warms up, the water pump impeller starts to spin on its hub, thereby not circulating the coolant. That's something that will definitely get worse as time goes on. (Wish I hadn't found that out the way I did!)
OTOH is the thermostat sticking in the closed position? Even in the closed position, (assuming the pump DOES continue to function properly) it will allow coolant to circulate between the head & block, keeping the head's hot spots moderated... but only for a while until ALL the coolant is up to boiling temps.
You indicated boiling @ 210F; is he currently running water or a glycol/water mix? Many of the new thermostats today absolutely need the added lubricity of the glycol to work properly (sad commentary on "precision" parts manufacturing today!). Even plain water shouldn't be boiling @ 210F much, if the cooling system is truly sealed and pressure is allowed to build. Does the coolant reservoir cap test 'good'?
Some water pumps have enough casting "flash" in their outlet areas that they impede adequate rapid coolant flow to the radiator; even a brand new one can suffer from that sloppy finish work. If so, a die grinder can smooth things out. Just don't mess with the impeller-to-pump wall clearances.
OK... there's a few more things to check. Best wishes for a quick & permanent solution.
J.R.
SoCal
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is the reservoir jug dirty? if so passages may be a problem, and insulating, keeping heat in & from transferring to water
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How much coolant pressure is when motor is running?
I see only 0.47 bar and my expansion tank has cup rated for 0.78 bar,40% mix on full motor temp.
Is this are little?
I try in motor and inside the car area and same pressure.
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is head a new head; and you Just rebuilt; if head is old head, in either case by rebuilding loosened the insulation and it then resets; on a new part the transfer of 'junk' can be accelerated and it can end up with a quick coat of insulation; on a part that came off motor(your straight head), you jarred the 'junk' or insulating gunk and more of it flowed around system. reservoir 'jug' doesnt need to look very dirty either.
all i know, if this is the case; any cooling part can never be reused; it ll clog a good system; includes everything in/around cooling system, hoses&even sensors.
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Sorry, been off line on travel status for a bit.
So the head was off the same block and rebuilt with new seals but no new valves. Got a shave to make flat to tolerances. So perhaps the rebuilt on the whole engine moved the insulation around?
We were running straight water in the block without the overflow closed, when it got hot it boiled out the cap hole not the cap itself. Cap was not even on the reservoir. That part was clean and I did test the cap and found it to be good, not plugged. Never got a chance to tighten it down.
VW Smokr, New water pump installed so doubtful the impeller is spinning poorly. I ran it with and without a thermostat and only saw good temps with it out and the fan on high all the time.
I am not sure what the status is on this beast. Since I needed to leave he is not working on it. He wants to do other work around the house and do the car work in the winter in a heated garage.
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We were running straight water in the block without the overflow closed, when it got hot it boiled out the cap hole not the cap itself. Cap was not even on the reservoir.
im personally at this point that this is your problem; ive with cooling problems, driven 300miles on straight water and had to keep reservoir topped off, but straight water boils With Out the cap, it wont boil quickly(possibly quicker than w/coolantmix), but as engine heats up with out cap it always has boiled for me..try with the cap, as the pressure raises boiling point, it also is possible with the cap on it will boil, its hard to say with straight water, and not 50/50or60/40mix.
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I ran it with and without a thermostat and only saw good temps with it out and the fan on high all the time.
When I try without a thermostat I see low temp and fan is ON only 1-2 time for short time,if I read you right.
Some say in summer just take it off,but for me you just mask the problem,or it`s normal for 20+ year car.
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silly question?rad fan is it moving air across rad??the other thing, i didnt see you say you replaced radiator, is the radiator the problem, if radiator is problem is the whole system insulated?
1thing that may escape a look, the small openings of the radiator fins, make sure theres not blockage there, maybe look and see, you never know unless youve looked, could be even smaller than like alot of dust or something stuffed in there, check for paint or (like in internals), gunk/like paint/deposits or covering/coating outer fins.
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I thought about the plugged up Rad and did the look through and found it to be sound and in good condition. I ran my hand across the fins real lightly and nothing bent or disintegrated as I have seen with that sort of thing here in the salt coastline.
The car has two temp sensors on it and one is marked 119 degrees. When I plugged into that one the fan came on and never shut off. That is what I meant with "on high all the time". That is the only way it seemed to cool the engine at all. So some how the cool water was getting mixed or pumped into the block enough that the temp gauge installed at the head, that would be the aftermarket one, would show 160 or so. Unplug the fan and the temp would rise to 210 on the gauge and boil over on the overflow would ensue.
So based on that performance I assumed that the Rad was functioning properly in that if the fan was on it would produce cool water at the bottom end of it.
Still haven't heard from my son if this engine is running cool or not. I think he has other jobs around the place and is looking to tackle this one when it isn't 105 outside. Working over the overheating engine was not fun with the temps at 100. It did boil over quick however.
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The car has two temp sensors on it and one is marked 119 degrees. When I plugged into that one the fan came on and never shut off. That is what I meant with "on high all the time". That is the only way it seemed to cool the engine at all. So some how the cool water was getting mixed or pumped into the block enough that the temp gauge installed at the head, that would be the aftermarket one, would show 160 or so. Unplug the fan and the temp would rise to 210 on the gauge and boil over on the overflow would ensue.
i forget; cause all my have the Top rad hose as the coolest point, and its flowed from the water pump pushed to the top of rad, and flow,cool,the head.
160f is fine, water boils around 212f, so your gauge reading 210f is aok to me, did you have cap on when you did this running?reservoir cap,,
i totally forget coolant mix boiling point, a lot higher than 212f(water boil pt), so if you saying farenheit, your well cool, put reservoir cap on,,??
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I ran it with and without a thermostat and only saw good temps with it out and the fan on high all the time.
When I try without a thermostat I see low temp and fan is ON only 1-2 time for short time,if I read you right.
Some say in summer just take it off,but for me you just mask the problem,or it`s normal for 20+ year car.
Running without a t-stat allows hot water from the bypass hose to -re-enter the pump... t-stats close the bypass while opening the radiator hose.
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I ran it with and without a thermostat and only saw good temps with it out and the fan on high all the time.
When I try without a thermostat I see low temp and fan is ON only 1-2 time for short time,if I read you right.
Some say in summer just take it off,but for me you just mask the problem,or it`s normal for 20+ year car.
Running without a t-stat allows hot water from the bypass hose to -re-enter the pump... t-stats close the bypass while opening the radiator hose.
I think I said this, and most of the stuff the others are suggesting, on page one.
still would like to know if the block is flat.
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My ability to work on this is like nil as I am 14 hrs away from it.
I was in the process of trying to replace thermostats and it ran out of fuel and I ran out of energy. It was 105 that day. I asked my son to double check the thermostats in hot water because I suspect they do not or would not open when in a water only immersion. I had plenty of trouble with the tabs breaking off of the temp sensors, the one staying on all the time and the potential of the sticky 190 and 160 degree thermostats
The head was milled and the block was very flat and well in spec. That doesn't rule out a blown gasket and that is where I left it with my son. Test the thermos, pull the head and double check for proper operation and the condition of the valves.
Not sure he will figure it out before I get to visit next year. Thanks for all the help on this. I wish it were here and not there.