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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Rock3tman on June 01, 2015, 10:19:17 am
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Fresh rebuild on carefully rebuilt 1.6TD, can't get to start/or even fire...Now it tries to run away and I have to use the shutoff solenoid.
1) there's fuel to injectors when lines cracked and cranking, pump set at .97mm. old bendix pump used as lift pump (can be heard before cranking) there are no bubbles in line from filter. pump stored with ATF during rebuild that's been replaced by diesel by now
2) pimped glowplugs working correctly Each glowplug was fused for 15A; all blown...replaced with 30A (glowplug leads are 8ga. stranded) and immediate start!!
3) actual starting attempts with the battery fully charged-spins a little faster than on the video
4) I'm getting a little blue smoke that smells like unburned fuel after a ~20 sec cranking attempt
Looking for suggestions on what I've missed or could be the problem: see attached video (sorry for shaking/phone was taped to hood prop rod)
http://s1264.photobucket.com/user/Rock3tman/media/VID_20150520_123753.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
thanks, Bob
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Is your pump timed right, who set it to 0.97 ? Did you check you have read correct marking on flywheel?
You stored it ATF,did you make sure all of it is drained now?
Is return line free/not clogged?
Are metal fuel lines conected correctly?
Take it easy so you don't destroy battery/starter, don't rev for more than 15 seconds or when it gets slow.
Avoid Starter sprey, it will not help you on rebiuld engine.
Stay calm, you will sort it, I almost lost it few times when starting mine for first time,
it was sucking air by fuel line because tube I used was bit big, but IT DIDN'T LEAK :-X
But I could get it to start a bit then it died immidiately, yours doesn't even try so I think you have something else (still good idea to check all fuel lines).
I am sure there will be better responses, just braintorming possile isuess at you.
Also very interesting turbo/IC position and VTN wichcraft, let us know how that works out.
Good luck
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I set it to 0.97 and rechecked a few times. I used the diamond-shaped mark on the flywheel that's located between the two squarish marks of 12BTDC and 20ATDC.
If anyone around Seattle has a piezo sensor and timing light adapter I'd really like to try that process.
ATF is out of pump, metal lines are connected correctly, but I haven't checked the "OUT" bolt (will clean with brake cleaner)
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Make sure you're actually injecting on #1 when #1 is at TDC. You may be timed 180° out. Does your IP pulley have two lock holes (many do) and did you use a pump lock to set it up?
You can crack the #1 injector nut and then bar the engine over, you'll see some fuel swell up at the injector union when the pump is actually at #1. Then you can make sure the cam and crank are aligned.
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the bluish smoke you can disregard for now, not important, if any one thing it tells you have oil in the cylinders, thats 1 good thing, as long as you didnt accidentally time cam/pump 180 out, id start with glow plugs, sure you have juice at plugs? you may have set it up right, doesnt mean ,somehow, its not working right, possible all 4 gps are not working. the only other thing it can be is compression, after troubleshooting glowplugs, perhaps compression test? id also check intake, that theres no blockage, possible you had a rag in intake, you assembled and missed blockage.
the timing diamond must be right (tdc) or youd be mixing valves timing motor, as the mark i have is a notch. take another look and make sure in that area theres not another mark.
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Thanks Vanbcguy - yes, my IP pulley has two locking holes. Can I pull the nut on the pump and check the orientation of the shaft keyway? Which way should it point if the sprocket is on correctly?
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There is a mark on the inside edge of the sprocket which should align with the top centerline of the pump when the pump pin is in the correct hole and the cam is correctly set for #1 TDC.
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If you cannot find what Libbydiesel is telling you then you can just take the nut off and look at which direction the keyway is pointing. IIRC it should be pointing at the 10-11 o'clock position for TDC on #1
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i think van had the best idea so far, cracking inj line #1, and seeing if its timed to cyl#1, keep in mind if you have to key on and turn over the engine, technically its live; other wise inj#1 will squirt at #4. libbs idea i know, but i have a notch on the outside of pump pulley, 1 tooth is marked, on the tin theres a mark you can line in up with, about 11o'clock on tin. thats where the pump pin fits in so that will be #1.
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Today I pulled the IP sprocket nut and washer: keyway is at 10-11 o'clock position when flywheel is at TDC, and the sprocket mark, pump mark, and pump bracket marks all essentially line up. Pulled the OUT banjo bolt and small orifice and hollow bolt end looked fine. It was wet there, so fuel is reaching there.
Glow plugs felt cool after two cycles before start attempts, so I plan to jump them directly from battery tomorrow. They glowed red-hot on 12volts and didn't show any tip erosion.
Still smells of raw fuel..and not a hint of firing.
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Some times these take a long time to get the air out.
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I watched the video:
....why oh why oh why oh why are you not pulling the throttle all the way open when rolling over the engine?
This is not a computer controlled system....put the wood to it.
In the past with initial start-ups on new engines, I have used a small amount of brake clean or carb cleaner (not nearly anything like ether) or a bit of wd-40 to aid in the initial fire. In the event of having no one else to assist you: run a detachable wire directly to the glow plugs from the battery. Prop open the throttle pivot with a folded piece of paper or something, use a screw driver to jump across on the starter. Just make sure the trans is in neutral prior to this excursion.
Turn your key on, walk over and ignite the glow plugs, have the pump opened up, roll the engine over with your right hand and give a squirt with your left. the turbo intake tract makes it a little more complicated than an n/a....but, I am willing to bet you are more resourceful than you are giving yourself credit. Just be careful to not ground and blow your glow plug fuse, etc. Put out your cigarette....wear goggles.....know where you fingers are..........yada yada. AND, of course, DON'T drop ANYTHING into the cam belt.....best to have the cover in place.
There....I am burned-out on disclaimers. I had my attorney from Boy, Dewey, Porkum, and Howe look this over and got his approval.
Now, the "closet intellectuals" will line up to dismiss the wd-40....however, I am not talking about inserting the entire can in the intake tract. Just a rather small amount to give it that initial roll-over. For me, it worked like a charm...a safe charm.
I am not in the soon-to-come camp which suggests pull starting, either.
The hyd. lifters are probably not pumped up yet. If solid lifters, did you meticulously set them after assembly. etc.?
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<<Dakotakid>>
Thanks for the tips. During my usual ~15-20 sec. start attempts, sometimes I've held the throttle to the floor for, then closed for ~ 5 sec., then open again. Also even tried cycling the cold start advance handle. The engine cranking sounds a little different when cold start pulled vs. not pulled and otherwise left pulled out was the only change.
After a battery charge top-up, on the next start attempt I'll try:
key-to-on,
manual glow plug harness from battery to plugs,
holding throttle open at the pump, a little WD-40 or brake cleaner into the intake, and
jump across starter. Car is on jackstands currently, and will be in neutral as well.
I'm also still looking for someone who has a diesel pulse adapter (piezo) in Seattle area to check the pump timing by another process. anyone?
Thanks, Rock3tman.
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This afternoon, I re-installed a stock pump which had been sitting in dry storage for a little over 6 months. I have no pusher pump on this particular car. Made sure the pump was filled. Rolled it over twice for a bit. Kept the throttle wide open he entire time. On the third attempt I gave it a small amount of carb cleaner (roughly 2 second shot out of new can) which helped to "quicken" the pace of roll over. On the 4th attempt it fired lightly. On the fifth I had lift-off. The pump moved the air out while burping and then, vroom.
Granted, the lines had not been sitting for long uncapped. I was NOT interested in burning up this starter. I don't like to let pumps sit longer than 6 months. Therefore, having spares is a hassle. But, they are paid for.
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What would be the potential causes of runaway upon first start after rebuild?
The valve cover breather is disconnected, the IP sat with ATF in it for three years. The pump was never opened and none of the external adjustments have been tampered with (collar is still on fuel screw, etc.). The throttle return to idle seems OK.
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So, it is running now?
What does it do if you start it up again? Did it shut off with the key?
Maybe a little heavy on the wd-40. You also had rolled it over many times with cylinders wet with injected fuel.
Does it start now and run OK?
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yes, running now. The pump solenoid shuts the engine off with the key fine. Restarts easy and after ~5-10 sec. starts to runaway (over 3500 RPM, I'd guess - I haven't let it go any further on such a new engine) even with foot off throttle and arm on pump against the idle stop screw.
I used carb cleaner instead of WD-40 - you may be right that it's still somewhat loaded up: On the fourth or fifth start I'm still getting pretty big clouds of blue smoke from the bottom of my downpipe (exhaust disconnected downstream from there). I'll try to capture some more video this afternoon and link to it.
Should I take the lift pump out of the fuel circuit? Will the cold start advance make any difference?
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Carefully use a small magic marker to mark the current position on the load screw.
Once marked, lefty-loosie (back it out) some and see. I don't know, start with a 1/4 turn. Take time to know/note what adjustment you have made. This may not be the problem.
An engine loaded up with unburned diesel will smoke for quite a while until actually run out. You've probably got unburned fuel out the exhaust ports and into the pipe. It will sit there and sweat and smolder until it is gone.
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Backed out load screw 1 full turn and backed out idle stop screw 1 1/2 turns. This solves the runaway, except for when I add some throttle above 1/2 throttle.
The engine has an elevated idle; I'd say about 1200 +/- 200, and it's not smooth. Injectors were balanced to 1psi and had new nozzles so the supply valves may be the culprit..
What other steps can I take to improve smoothness?
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I've got about 3 minutes of running time on the rebuild in six starts: how much longer can I go without ruining future oil consumption/compression/glazing cylinder walls, etc. (I'm using Brad Penn straight 30 wt break-in oil)? The reason I'm asking is that I've got a little suspension and front brake work to do to get it on the road. Also I need to clean/pack/re-boot both of the inside CV joints - - one a second time as the boot cracked and failed on just installing the driveshaft!!!
No oil leaks, and I think just a small coolant leak at the front of the head-to-radiator hose. Still blowing pretty big clouds of blue smoke that smell of unburnt fuel. Thanks to all for the tips to get this beast alive again...
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Well, it is in your best interests not to idle this engine. No one can give you a definitive answer.
For future reference, it was super dangerous to not have a solid mechanical way (drive shafts on, wheels on, able to put in gear and dump the clutch, etc.) to stop this engine on initial start up.
What were you (or any one else for future reference) going to do to stop this engine if the key would not have turned it off? That is living on the edge!
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.................For future reference, it was super dangerous to not have a solid mechanical way (drive shafts on, wheels on, able to put in gear and dump the clutch, etc.) to stop this engine on initial start up.
What were you (or any one else for future reference) going to do to stop this engine if the key would not have turned it off? That is living on the edge!
Pull the spade on the IP shut off solenoid?
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.................For future reference, it was super dangerous to not have a solid mechanical way (drive shafts on, wheels on, able to put in gear and dump the clutch, etc.) to stop this engine on initial start up.
What were you (or any one else for future reference) going to do to stop this engine if the key would not have turned it off? That is living on the edge!
Pull the spade on the IP shut off solenoid?
That works if it is fuel, but what about oil runaway? I think that is what is probably the main concern from the post above. CO2 extinguisher, thick cardboard, phone book, etc could be used to cover the intake. I personally like to dump the clutch in gear holding it with the brakes, but if no CV's are attached that could be a little exciting.
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I had a small towel ready to stuff into the 1 1/2-to-2 1/2 silicon intake adapter. My valve cover breather is also disconnected, so I think the only runaway source would be the turbo seals ( not taking into account ring or valve guide blowby).
I hope to have the suspension bits and the rest put back on by the end of the weekend or so.