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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: RabbitJockey on May 20, 2015, 07:54:13 pm
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Got my aaz rabbit back on the road last night and after about 20 minutes of driving it began making this noise, it goes away under mostly acceleration and depressing the utch changes it some. It seems to be louder on the trans side of the car. I turned over the engine by hand and it felt fine, it also still drives the same and has no loss of power, thanks for any help!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/Mobile%20Uploads/th_20150520_193439_zps4xdjntmq.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/Mobile%20Uploads/20150520_193439_zps4xdjntmq.mp4)
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Wow, that sounds terrible. Turbo would be my first guess, but odd that you aren't feeling a loss of power.
How's the alt? Clutch?
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i would say it is definitely not the turbo it boosts fine to 12psi and sounds normal, i also felt it by hand feels just like new(i just rebuilt it.) maybe some of the sound quality was lost when i uploaded the video. it sounds like more of a rattling knocking sound, almost like it could be a precup coming loose hitting the piston, but i would think i'd have a loss of power for that, also a more consistent sound. alternator is fine, but i am suspicious of the clutch setup, it drives fine but something may have come loose with it, i think i can get a 1/4" ratchet in to the timing hole and make sure the flywheel bolts are tight.
also for years even before this swap, the starter on this car would have the bendix stick out for a second or 2 after starting, so it could be related to that although it starts fine.(with lots of noise) i'll also be pulling the starter tonight.
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Does the sound change if you remove the green alligator clip?
Have you tested your lifters?
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My son's Jetta started making a horrible racket several weeks ago. Pressing the clutch would change the sound. Turns out we had ripped two of the straps on the pressure plate...one was still dangling from the PP, and the other was just bouncing around inside the bell housing. Just another idea, fwiw.
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Ill check that stuff tonight.
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Pressure plate to crank bolts must have backed out, i can reach in and there is about Half an inch of play that i move the pp/flywheel by hand. Hopefully the pp holes have elongated so i dont have to buy a new pp. I guess well see once i get it torn off. I am certain that i torqued the crank bolts properly but i must have done something wrong. Either way, atleast the engine is ok, this could have been a much worse situation
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you guys can make fun of me, it's ok i can handle it
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As a guy who gave up a good chunk of a weekend on my back two weeks ago, changing a nine-month-old clutch (between business trips, no less), I'm in no position to make fun of you... ;D
I'm just glad you found out what's making the noise. Curious about root cause, once you're able to do some forensics.
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haha, it's all a part of the journey and learning not to *** up. i know i torque the bolts proper but i am not sure whether or not i did the final quarter turns. i am just hoping that the pressure plate holes are still round, how ever i doubt that they are, and i am thinking i will have to buy a new one. and i had used new bolts that even come with loctite already on them... clearly something when wrong though.
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No expert here but when you install the new bolts, make sure you run a bottoming tap into the holes first and blast em good with brake cleaner and air a few times.
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when i first heard it, the quality isnt too good, you can hear some clicking, but the main sound is like something has spun, a whirring; yup a clutch plate coming loose prob sounds like that; hopefully you can fix it and no big problem.
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This happened to a worked 2.0 16v I had years ago.. Didn't figured it out until I was replacing the bottom end of the engine again and my PP wouldn't come off.. D'oh!
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This happened to a worked 2.0 16v I had years ago.. Didn't figured it out until I was replacing the bottom end of the engine again and my PP wouldn't come off.. D'oh!
your pp was stuck on?
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Yeah, it chewed up the crank end, and required some prying to get it off.. I had just replaced the bottom end due to a spun bearing a few weeks before, and figured it was that again.. After I found the loose pressure plate it made sense,
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Yeah, it chewed up the crank end, and required some prying to get it off.. I had just replaced the bottom end due to a spun bearing a few weeks before, and figured it was that again.. After I found the loose pressure plate it made sense,
well, hopefully mines ok. now i am more concerned.
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so i got to work on this a litte bit past noon, and i had everything out before 2pm and that was while working at a very leisurely pace. i was pretty surprised how quick everything went
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/th_20150530_135933_zpsux6cnhng.mp4) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_135933_zpsux6cnhng.mp4)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/Message_1433010144565_zpslz1ftypj.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/Message_1433010144565_zpslz1ftypj.jpg.html)
i guess this is why you must use the newer stretch bolt style flywheel bolts with the large clutch setups since mine were apparently rubbing on the edges of the pressure plate, i am not sure maybe this normal for either style bolt??
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_140936_zpsrqfjvwgu.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/20150530_140936_zpsrqfjvwgu.jpg.html)
the next 2 pictures i took because i wasn't sure if maybe this strap had stretched judging by the marks around the rivet
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_141009_zps8xnrniby.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/20150530_141009_zps8xnrniby.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_141013_zpsppo7wt4w.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/20150530_141013_zpsppo7wt4w.jpg.html)
and here is the actual damaged parts, bolt holes are ovaled out, and the mating surface is marred up, crank surface looks the same as the pp so i will have to clean that up before installing the new one.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_141017_zpsohfqhmov.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/20150530_141017_zpsohfqhmov.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_141027_zpswltijc7s.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/20150530_141027_zpswltijc7s.jpg.html)
the crank bolts threads looked fine other than where the pp had obviously beat them up, and they all came out nice and smooth so i am not concerned about the crank threads, and i'll obviously be using new bolts, the part i am concerned about is cleaning up the crank surface before install the new pp to make sure it is totally flat, i can use a file and stuff, but i am open to suggestions as i am no machinist and i dont have experience with something like this.
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so i got to work on this a litte bit past noon, and i had everything out before 2pm and that was while working at a very leisurely pace. i was pretty surprised how quick everything went
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Wait the minute. You pulled the tranny/clutch out of a running driving VW in less than 2 hours? Do you have a lift? Please list your procedure.
I did a tranny swap AVX to ACN approx 3 years ago in my Jetta and it took me a few weeks working on jack stands. I took my time with help from this forum (first time doing it and had to make tools like flange pullers etc). Getting the ACN in was no fun working on my back.
I need to do a clutch soon and was considering farming the job out to a VW shop who quoted me at least $700 labor says the job is minimum 7 to 8 hours (he has a lift and all the tools). With that price tag I am considering doing it myself for punishment.
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???
worst part of the clutch job is getting the cv's in/out with the triple square bolts and propping the engine up on the trans side as I only have 2 jack stands. After that MKI and MKII is pretty easy. If you have new parts to go in you should be able to finish it in a day or less.
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i just did it in my car port with 2 jack stands holding up the front of the car and 2 jack stands with a 4x4 across them holding the engine up. i've done it before so maybe that helps because i already know how to do each part and what tools to grab before i start. it will take much longer to put it back together because of the cleaning and torque procedures. but still a clutch is not too bad of a job even in a mk4
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........... 2 jack stands with a 4x4 across them holding the engine up. ....................
Do you have a pic? I borrowed a HF engine support from a friend that has a come-a-long built in that rested on the fenders when I did the swap but he moved away so I would be interested in your setup.
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Is N10013401 the correct flywheel/ pressure plate bolts? Dealer says 9 are needed and they are $1.77 ea. FCPEuro have ones made by Febi at $1.09 ea. Are they OK? What type of socket is needed on these 12 point jobbies?
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-clutch-pressure-plate-bolt-n10013401 (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-clutch-pressure-plate-bolt-n10013401)
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9 mm 12-point standard socket
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Is N10013401 the correct flywheel/ pressure plate bolts? Dealer says 9 are needed and they are $1.77 ea. FCPEuro have ones made by Febi at $1.09 ea. Are they OK? What type of socket is needed on these 12 point jobbies?
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-clutch-pressure-plate-bolt-n10013401 (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-clutch-pressure-plate-bolt-n10013401)
yes those look like the right ones, but i did not use those, the old old flywheel bolts were 6 point, and reuseable, so i found 9 of them and used them since they were free, i didn't have an issue with the 6 point bolts other than that they rubbed the contact plate of the pressure plate. but when i put it back together i will be using the 12 point ones you posted.
i think to fix this i will take an old used pressure plate i have, and drill out the rivets and remove the contact plate and membrane/spring then put my clutch net membrane/spring contact plate and straps over on to the used backing plate and bolt the straps on. clutchnet has like a month lead time and it will also cost me atleast another 200 dollars to replace the pressure plate, if i swap the backing plates it should only cost me a few nuts and bolts.
here is a picture of how it sits now, i have done the same thing with a mk3 2.0 and a mk4 1.8t as well. i don't know how well it would work with a mk2 or mk3 that didn't have ac since the compressor rested on the front cross member and kind of kept it steady, but it should be fine i'd just be careful since the motor mount is on the back of the engine and not on the side like a mk1 or mk4.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/IMG_20150530_144155_zpslefqgyp1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Trev0rbr/media/IMG_20150530_144155_zpslefqgyp1.jpg.html)
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i think to fix this i will take an old used pressure plate i have, and drill out the rivets and remove the contact plate and membrane/spring then put my clutch net membrane/spring contact plate and straps over on to the used backing plate and bolt the straps on. clutchnet has like a month lead time and it will also cost me atleast another 200 dollars to replace the pressure plate, if i swap the backing plates it should only cost me a few nuts and bolts.
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I'm no expert on this but not sure if that's a good idea. Rivets are low profile and meant to not come off. Bolts will be much higher profiles and could come loose even with loctite.
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i think to fix this i will take an old used pressure plate i have, and drill out the rivets and remove the contact plate and membrane/spring then put my clutch net membrane/spring contact plate and straps over on to the used backing plate and bolt the straps on. clutchnet has like a month lead time and it will also cost me atleast another 200 dollars to replace the pressure plate, if i swap the backing plates it should only cost me a few nuts and bolts.
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I'm no expert on this but not sure if that's a good idea. Rivets are low profile and meant to not come off. Bolts will be much higher profiles and could come loose even with loctite.
it's been done a lot by people who kept ripping straps, so they would drill out the rivets and install 2-3 straps with bolts. it's worth trying atleast since it could save me 2-300 dollars. but it's a well tested and proven thing to do. i could always use some button head allens if clearance is an issue. and definitely will use red loctite.
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OK, hope it goes well and good luck. How high are those jack stands set at? What kind of creeper is that? I don't even own one and always crawl on cardboard because my floor jack is only 16" (I think).
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hmm i'm not sure, the transmission was probably 3-4 feet off the ground.
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it's been done a lot by people who kept ripping straps, so they would drill out the rivets and install 2-3 straps with bolts. it's worth trying atleast since it could save me 2-300 dollars. but it's a well tested and proven thing to do. i could always use some button head allens if clearance is an issue. and definitely will use red loctite.
FWIW, the ACT pressure plate I recently installed has doubled-up straps. ~$222 shipped via amazon.
Regarding jackstands and engine support, I usually put a floor jack under the oil pan (cushioned with a piece of scrap wood), which enables me to raise or lower the engine a bit to get the desired angle for tranny installation and removal. Of course, that ties up my floor jack, so I'm relegated to bench pressing the tranny into place, which is a lot of fun when it takes a couple of minutes to get the splines aligned. :P
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You could always put a dab of weld to the bolts or straps if one was really concerned.
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Have you determined what made these marks? Is it the hex bolt heads?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/20150530_140936_zpsrqfjvwgu.jpg)
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What kind of creeper is that? I don't even own one and always crawl on cardboard because my floor jack is only 16" (I think).
i went to sears for a creeper, cardboard,yea right, if you have the dough, a creeper changes going under the car pretty much, other than getting down on creeper, and slideee. get a firm pillow for neck support for those longer jobs under there. if you need your jack to go up more, add 1 or 2 blocks of 2x4. can get you up some more.
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it's been done a lot by people who kept ripping straps, so they would drill out the rivets and install 2-3 straps with bolts. it's worth trying atleast since it could save me 2-300 dollars. but it's a well tested and proven thing to do. i could always use some button head allens if clearance is an issue. and definitely will use red loctite.
FWIW, the ACT pressure plate I recently installed has doubled-up straps. ~$222 shipped via amazon.
Regarding jackstands and engine support, I usually put a floor jack under the oil pan (cushioned with a piece of scrap wood), which enables me to raise or lower the engine a bit to get the desired angle for tranny installation and removal. Of course, that ties up my floor jack, so I'm relegated to bench pressing the tranny into place, which is a lot of fun when it takes a couple of minutes to get the splines aligned. :P
do you have a link? none of the ones i found on the search had a description
the creeper is from harbor freight.
the engine is lowered down a good bit, i jacked up on the engine a little and then took the mk1 trans mount bolt out then lowered it down so the oil pan sat on the 4x4, which puts the trans pointing down on a bit of an angle and makes it easier to remove. just how u skin the cat haha.
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What kind of creeper is that? I don't even own one and always crawl on cardboard because my floor jack is only 16" (I think).
i went to sears for a creeper, cardboard,yea right, if you have the dough, a creeper changes going under the car pretty much, other than getting down on creeper, and slideee. get a firm pillow for neck support for those longer jobs under there. if you need your jack to go up more, add 1 or 2 blocks of 2x4. can get you up some more.
yep i add a stack of wood because at my house i only have a small aluminum jack.
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Have you determined what made these marks? Is it the hex bolt heads?
yeah i am pretty sure this was from using the older bolts from a 190mm clutch. i'll know for sure once i get the new ones in my hands and i can measure the non threaded areas.
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Have you determined what made these marks? Is it the hex bolt heads?
yeah i am pretty sure this was from using the older bolts from a 190mm clutch. i'll know for sure once i get the new ones in my hands and i can measure the non threaded areas.
How many of these bolts are on yours? I bought a Valeo clutch kit for mine and just looked at the pressure plate and there are 6 threaded holes on the perimeter. I don't know why the VW dealer parts guy told me I need 9???
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do you have a link? none of the ones i found on the search had a description
Do a search on amazon for the ACT VW011...here's a link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000CIK4II/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1433283998&sr=1-1&keywords=vw011+pressure+plate&condition=new). I got mine from a seller named "X Auto Racing," but I don't see them currently listed.
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Yes i used 9 hex bolts in mine, but the old flywheels only used 6
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Yes i used 9 hex bolts in mine, but the old flywheels only used 6
Now I am wondering if I have the right clutch kit. I'll have to count the number of bolts at the engine timing hole. Hopefully that's possible.
I had a hard time visualizing how the VW clutch kit I have fit together onto the flywheel after looking at some youtube videos of how a clutch works, until I found a photo in the Bentley which shows all the parts which shows the VW clutch is backwards compared to most other cars! The pressure plate bolts to the crankshaft and the flywheel then bolts to the pressure plate! Now it all makes sense!
What about the 6 flywheel bolts https://www.fcpeuro.com/products?keywords=n90206103
do they need to be replaced or can they be re-used? They are a lot more expensive.
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i've reused them in the past with loctite, the new ones should come with a sealer/loctite on them. i think they are stretch bolts and should be replaced each time
on this clutch which just came apart, i did use brand new ones.
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Counted 6 pressure plate bolts in the car. FCPEuro wanted my VIN and checked with a dealer and says I need 6 pressure plate bolts which is a different p/n https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-pressure-plate-bolt-n10104501 (https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-pressure-plate-bolt-n10104501) than the ones I posted earlier. You may want to verify which is the right ones for your car.
So the 12 bolts needed came to about $23. I also bought a HF creeper like yours.
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The 210 flywheel and pressure plate take the 9 bolts on the outer diameter. The 200 and 190 take 6 bolts.
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and i grabbed an old 12 point bolt today and measured both.
the old 6 point reusable bolts are .267" at the non threaded area, and the 12 points are .247
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and i grabbed an old 12 point bolt today and measured both.
the old 6 point reusable bolts are .267" at the non threaded area, and the 12 points are .247
and i grabbed an old 12 point bolt today and measured both.
the old 6 point reusable bolts are .267" at the non threaded area, and the 12 points are .247
So you have a 210 flywheel? Do you think they changed the bolts to a smaller neck diameter so they can maximize the contact plate's surface area by increasing its diameter?
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Yea i upgraded to a 210mm setup, if u want a 210mm flywheel ill send you one from an aaz for the cost of shipping. It is a single pin flywheel.
And yeah id guess thats why they changed the bolts probably in 82 or 83 once they started offering the scirocco, gti and gli with 210mm clutches. Older pre 94 210mm clutches are dual pin and the pressure plates seem to be cheaper with more clamping force for these. I used a dual pin pp with my single pin fw becaus3 i didnt know there was a difference until after i ordered everything
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Yea i upgraded to a 210mm setup, if u want a 210mm flywheel ill send you one from an aaz for the cost of shipping. It is a single pin flywheel.
And yeah id guess thats why they changed the bolts probably in 82 or 83 once they started offering the scirocco, gti and gli with 210mm clutches. Older pre 94 210mm clutches are dual pin and the pressure plates seem to be cheaper with more clamping force for these. I used a dual pin pp with my single pin fw becaus3 i didnt know there was a difference until after i ordered everything
Thanks for the offer. I already bought a 200 mm clutch kit, which have 2 non threaded holes in the perimeter of the pressure plate. Are those the pin holes?
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RabbitJockey, how did you disconnect the inner CV axles with both front wheels still on the car? Are MK1's different than MK2's? I just loosened the 8 inner CV bolts on driver's side (wheel still on) and axle won't drop down from the tranny flange. Looking at my Bentley, it says to loosen the axle bolt (200 ft lbs) and pop the ball joint first.(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/IMG_20150530_144155_zpslefqgyp1.jpg)
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yeah you need to loosen the axle nuts before u ever jack up the car. on a mk1 there is enough room to remove the axles with out popping the balljoints, on a mk2 or mk3 i can't remember if i had to pop the ball joints or not.
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On MK2, I wire-up the right axle out of the way and pull the left.
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Just a small update here. I dont think using the older bolts was actually an issue with the rub marks on the pressure plate, when i threaded the bolts in to there pressure plate off the car there is plent of the clearance, and when i disassembled the pressure plate i could see that my pressure plate straps had also stretched, with only 40miles on it too! So i am guessing that the stretched straps allowed the contacted plate to move around more and rub on the bolts, the stretched straps also mean that at some point i was going to have to replace the pressure plate anyway. So for now i have been collecting straps until i have enough to double strap mine and put it back in, i think i have enough i just need to make sure the one pressure plate i have is still good
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Why did the straps stretch? Isn't it on a new Clutchnet pressure plate?
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Yea they must have used crappy straps, the use sachs pressure plate to start with then either replace or modify the spring in it, sachs pressure plates are known for ripping straps so if they used the sachs straps then its no surprise.
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Yea they must have used crappy straps, the use sachs pressure plate to start with then either replace or modify the spring in it, sachs pressure plates are known for ripping straps so if they used the sachs straps then its no surprise.
How many miles did you put on it before this happened? Did you drive it hard, dumped the clutch, etc?