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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Smoker on March 26, 2015, 07:28:54 pm
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I bought a caddy a few months ago, and I'm finally getting around to working on it. Typical story from the PO. It had been sitting for a while, he got it as payment for work, he never heard it run, etc... last inspection was '01. But it was cheap, and has very little rust, so here we go...
It had a gasser timing belt on it that was pretty loose, so between that and the fact that it felt like it had zero compression when turning the motor over by hand, I figured that the previous owner/mechanic was a complete moron and the motor was probably trashed.
Step 1: compression test. 325, 320, 320, 325. Shocking.
Step 2: put the proper belt on it. At this point, I found out that the i/m shaft pulley was looser than loose, hanging on by a thread, literally it was just flopping around after I took the old belt off. Lucky. Also, the cam timing was just slightly off, I'm not sure if that hurt my compression readings or not, but I can't imagine it helped...
Step 3: check fuel situation. I tried to prime it via the vac pump on the return line method. It took a while, but I got there. Lots of air in it, but plenty of off road diesel from who knows when (3/4 tank in it!!) coming through as well. Lol. I replaced all rubber lines in the engine bay and primed it again, and got the same results. I'd say I was probably pulling equal amounts of air and fuel, which seems weird, but I'm still somewhat of a diesel noob. I wasn't sure how long I should keep going, and my kids were all getting tired of running the pump. :)
Step 4: fresh glow plugs. I replaced all four. I also realized I had no power getting to them, so for the time being, I used some heavy gauge wire from the buss bar that I just held right on the positive terminal for 30 seconds before I tried to start it.
No start, no sputter, no nothing. I cracked a few injector lines and cranked it. No fuel. The shutoff solenoid is getting power, and I can feel it clicking on and off with the key. What's my next step?
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Sounds like you still have air in the pump. It's possible that the pump is gummed up, you can try starting it while pulling a vacuum through it to help it along. It's easier if you can put pressurized fuel to the feed though.
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Sounds like you still have air in the pump. It's possible that the pump is gummed up, you can try starting it while pulling a vacuum through it to help it along. It's easier if you can put pressurized fuel to the feed though.
Good call. I have a 6psi or whatever univeral pump lying around here somewhere. I'll try that tomorrow.
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compression #s are low, even for hf comp tester. and a gummed up ip most likely, if you have fuel at by vac pumping it, and crank over you should shortly get fuel at injectors, other than that ip gummed?
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I have to say that given the engine sat for so long you are in for opening that IP up and getting the little vanes free. It just isn't going to put out fuel. One thing you can check is crack the nuts on the rear of the pump while cranking. If you have fuel there then just a bit more cranking is going to fill the lines to the injectors. Each pump only squirts out what a millimeter or so of fuel? So filling those lines to the injector does take a bit. You gotta remember each rotation of the IP only puts fuel in the line one quarter of the time.
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compression #s are low, even for hf comp tester.
Really? I thought those numbers were pretty decent, considering the circumstances... should certainly be enough to run, yes?
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use glow plugs and starting fluid ;not the best advice, but i figure even if you have fuel there, 300&change is a tough cold start. 400 is closer to normal
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I helped a guy locally with his 1.6 pickup a while back with the same issue...no start, no fuel to injectors.
Sounds like you may have some electrical gremlins since your glow plugs aren't getting juice, and so did he...
Basically what was happening to him was while turning the key to run and cranking, he was losing his voltage to the stop solenoid somehow.
His would click and everything with the key, but when he turned it to run/crank it would go to 0 volts on the multimeter and fuel was never making it to the injectors.
We ran a wire directly from the battery 12v to the solenoid and then tried it again and it fired right up.
Something easy to try that might be it, good luck.
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I've driven on 350 psi. Once you get some fuel in there and long glowplug cycle times and warm ambient temps it should run and drive fine until the cold parts of the year. Unless there's lots of blowby... You may need to really advance the timing.
Excellent advice on losing 12v to the stop solenoid while cranking.
If you can pull/push a can of seafoam or diesel purge or even ATF into the pump you might be able to get it ungunked if it's minor. You're probably going to be dealing with leaky seals anyways pretty soon so a good clean out should be on the list of to dos.
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i found a good way to rotate ip; with a 3/8 air-ratchet , timing belt off of course, run atf or sea foam or lubromoloy or mix, inj lines off, pump will spin at a good speed and can get flush thru it, then let flush sit for a while. as soon as you finish using the air-ratchet loosen the pump nut, the ratchet will constantly tighten nut, so after every use, (not every 5or10minutes)loosen and resnug, and before reassembling timing belt retorque pump nut(40or45ftlbs). NOT an impact; but a 3/8 ratchet.
fuel solenoid has to work and you ll get good spurts out of ip squirters
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That seems like a good idea...
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I put some pressure to the fuel and just got it barely dribbling out with injector lines cracked.
Time to try flushing the pump. Anything wrong with using straight atf? I'm a cheap bastard...
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take off inj lines and go from there, flush it out, atf is ok, dont know the best brand; i used syn atf. lubromoloy mix w/atf sounds better; uum if you do take timing belt off, just make sure of one thing, as with any timing work, get it to tdc first.
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Of course. Thanks.
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Fuel dribbling out sounds normal to me. Now that's it's dribbling run those glowplugs and see if she'll fire. Look for white smoke coming out the exhaust to indicate that fuel is making it into the cylinders.
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No white smoke. I pulled the belt and tried to flush the pump as per air cooled's advice. It won't even pull the atf out of the bottle. I'm about to head out on a road trip to pick up an alh Beetle, I'll let the pump sit with atf in it for a day and see if anything loosens up.
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the lubromoly diesel purge is the best stuff to let soak in the pump. i had this same issue though with an aaz pump that had sat dry for a long time, i just bought a mr gasket diesel fuel pump and tucked it behind the passenger strut tower, its only 50 bucks and it will save you lots of time getting it started, and also in the future. I got my pump at advance auto, looks like it's 60 now, its available else where too. i know a few people running them including someone with a built tdi running a gt2052 turbo. the best part is you can just run the power off the fuel stop solenoid, so the install is super easy. i'm going to run one on all my diesels in the future.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/mr.-gasket-electric-diesel-fuel-transfer-pump-12d/6340003-P?cm_mmc=ACQ-_-Google-_-Enhanced-_-Dynamic&jadid=61601342245&jap=1t2&jkId=gpt:pt_134962&js=1&jsid=34339&jt=1&jr=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/mr.-gasket-electric-diesel-fuel-transfer-pump-12d/6340003-P%3Fcm_mmc%3DACQ-_-Google-_-Enhanced-_-Dynamic#utm_source=acq&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=enhanced&utm_content=dynamic
and 320psi isn't ideal but you should have a runner at that compression level.
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RabbitJockey, ONLY 50 bucks??? Anytime someone calls themselves a cheap B. You know he isn't in the mood or wallet frame of mind on that advice.
But I liked it. The suggestion to wire to solenoid was nice touch for simplicity sake.
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Worth mentioning that the solenoid wire isn't fused on a lot of the earlier cars. I know it is on the Mk3 (it uses the 'Engine Management' position in the fusebox) but not sure about the Mk2 and Mk1... So if you're running power for a lift pump from there, BE CAREFUL and add a fuse.
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Update: attempt #2 at flushing the pump with atf... It isn't putting anything through the delivery valves, but it is sucking atf from the bottle and sending it out the return. What does this mean??
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add lubromoloy,mix and keep on running stuff thru, let sit, and do again, pump is stuck, but its starting to work, the question is can you get it where it can run again or you have to it breakdown.
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do you have return going back to bottle? you can also possibly hook something up, get line that fits the pump squirters clamp, run all 4 lines back to bottle and return too, now you can keep on running pump this way and possibly wont lose the flush. continuous flush
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Smoker, It sounds to me that you have the primary part of the pump working since it will pull fluid in and pump it out. But what isn't working is the secondary part of the pump that compresses the little bit of fluid as the shaft rotates and rides up and down on the cam plate. It might be a stuck spill collar or plugged holes in the shaft itself. Just keep soaking it as suggested and hook up some hose to the back end to collect the spray that comes out there too. No need to make this a messy job.
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prob shouldnt recycle fuel out of squirters at first; after they 'fire' a good amount, try to recycle, fi line may work with clamps. can run return from pump return. i like to use a filter , like a bug filter use to be a buck, now its over $1.50. prob shouldnt use a filter with atf though would be too thick.
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You can take the delivery valves apart and see if they are stuck closed. Just be careful not to drop the little washers out of them. Parts inside the delivery valve holders (14mm) starting at the timing belt end and moving to the drivers side
1) copper washer
2) delivery valve (2 pieces)
3) spring
4) washer
You can remove the delivery valves completely and try turning it over to see if it squirts fuel. Don't mix up the parts but they can go back in any hole.
When the collar gets stuck it's in the starting fuel position which is maximum fuel (even more than full throttle) so I'm thinking you likely have an issue with the delivery valves. If they are stuck closed you aren't going to be able to get your diesel purge mix up to them to loosen them. You can reuse the washers, although technically you aren't suppose to.
If you moved the throttle (which you likely did) the control collar could get stuck in a position other than starting fuel which could make getting fuel flowing through it slower/impossible.
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BYM, Moving the collar off start position was what I was thinking. There could have been that film coat on the shaft and moving the lever pushed it back from start location and now it is jammed back a bit exposing the spill hole. And It won't come back on its own. I wonder if popping the top to get down in there is an option rather than dismantle the pump end?
Cleaning the delivery valves is a good thing to do as well, Just eliminates it from the potential cast of characters that can make fuel deliver a problem.
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You should be able to take the top off to try and move the collar. Obviously much care would be needed.
Spinning the pump at high RPM might push it back as well but that's not too likely I'd say.
If it's that stuck, it's going to need seals so I'd just tear the whole thing down and remove some variables.
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I'm 99% sure I never moved the accelerator.
I did have a thought earlier today... maybe I should power the shutoff solenoid before I try to get anything out of the delivery valves? Lol. Now it spits some atf while spinning it with the air ratchet, but not much...
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My Dasher's old pump is sitting on my shelf. It ran great, but wouldn't hold its prime. One of these days, I need to dig into one of these pumps so I can understand how they work. Maybe today is the day...
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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what should be happening when I'm flushing the pump. Or more specifically, how much atf I should see. I'm used to seeing diesel fuel hitting the hood when injector lines are cracked to bleed air, but it isn't putting much atf out at all. Thoughts?
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It will depend a lot on where the control sleeve is and how fast you are spinning the pump. If it's shooting out it's probably ok. You can try winding the max fuel screw in a turn or two and seeing if it increases. Just make sure to put it back or slightly more turned in than where it was.
I'd try bleeding the lines now and firing it up on ATF. Having the engine revving higher will help to clear stuff out of the pump.
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If you have some spitting out the delivery valves do as suggested and put the injector lines on and get it to the injectors. The amount coming out the back will be small, but once under pressure tends to spray all over the place. Get the beast started and I would be wagering on it cleaning the whole issue up. More RPMs will get rid of the air in the pump, lines and all points in between. Unless you have a seal issue.
Do what Burn_Yer_Money mentions.
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Update: I got it running... sort of. Had the wife tow me down the road in second gear and it fired right up... but would only run with the pedal at least halfway down. I realized now that it's having trouble pulling fuel from the tank. Even with my Mr gasket pump BEFORE the filter, it won't pull fuel unless I pressurize the tank. Can't say I've ever run into anything like this before...
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There has to be a crimped hose some place along the line from tank to filter. Anything get rolled over or under the car near the passengers side and smash those lines? Someone put a jack in the wrong place and tried lifting the car up?
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Is it better with the gas cap removed? Diesel one's are vented but gassers are not. Switching them up causes issues. You could also have stuff in the tank clogging the pickup screen, or rusted through lines inside the tank.
Congrats on getting her going.
I once had this issue on a Mk1 and it was a leaking copper washer on the fuel filter, or the bleeder was loose, I forget.
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Ive heard bad things about the build quality of those Mr.Gasket pumps. I personally have used a facet pump from NAPA. Just some food for thought.
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Exactly, the Ms. Gasket pump I bought would not move fuel down a steep incline. I lost the stinking receipt for the pos in the meantime. I was pretty angry.
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Well I dropped the tank and inspected all the lines. I don't see any noticeable problems... I'm starting to wonder if that pump was actually my problem...
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I take that back. Looks like I have some black junk in the tank. If I put a little fuel in and slosh it around, the fuel comes out dirty with chunks of black something in it. Any advice on cleaning it out?
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Dry clean towels over and over.
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Well that was my first thought... But I was expecting the sending unit hole to be bigger... I can't fit my hand in there!
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Well that was my first thought... But I was expecting the sending unit hole to be bigger... I can't fit my hand in there!
This is where you put your kids or younger broster to work! :3
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i've heard of putting a bunch of chain in it with gas or diesel or what ever you want, and then slosh it all around, pull the chain out and then drain it.
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It lives. And idles. I'm not sure if it was the crud in the tank or the Mr Gasket pump, but all is well. Except for little power and plenty of white smoke... ☺
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Awesome! What did you set the timing to? There shouldn't be white smoke once it's warm, unless it has leaky exhaust valve stem seals.
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Unfortunately I don't have a dial indicator and adapter (yet) to set timing the right way, so I have no idea what it's at... I'll probably play around with the timing a little bit today.
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More advance will probably clear it up.
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It can also have white smoke when warm if air is getting into the fuel.
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Air was part of the problem. My first attempt at a cap for the return on injector #4 was a fail. I got that sealed up, and everything is improved. It's still blowing some smoke, and can't get out of its own way. I'm gonna try advancing it a little.
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A little update on this thing... I've been driving it for the past few days, and it gets me there and back, but it just isn't right.
I need to buy a dial indicator and adapter and set the timing the right way, but I've always been able to get my 1.6's running better than this one just adjusting by ear/feel. I've replaced all fuel lines in the engine bay. I'd like to replace the rubber lines between the tank and the hard lines... where do you guys find these? I know the supply line is different sizes at each end...
Sometimes the idle hangs REALLY high, and sometimes it barely runs... I might try running some diesel purge through it, but I think it's time to get my hands dirty and open my first pump. The truck is solid enough that I think I'll keep it for a while, and I'm thinking about a re-ring and possibly turbo.
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i dont know if i said it before; new fuel&air filters, prime fuel filter from inlet; 1 can of lubromoloy, 1 can of sea foam to about 3/4 tank of fresh fuel; if you have water separator, drain some after a few miles on fuel mix. as far as ear tuning, it can be ok, advance pump to a good/desired point, back off some and see how it goes.
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I keep losing my prime. This is a sign that the pump needs to be resealed, yes? Where is the place to buy a seal kit these days?
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I was rebuilding a pump last weekend and on Friday. I couldn't get it to squirt out the back end when I was spinning it with a drill.
I ended up tearing it apart, again, and two of the vanes were sticking again. Once I got that fixed I could pump through the pump but the outflow was way to foamy. I knew I had an air leak someplace.
It turned out to be the O-ring on the top of the pump that goes around the governor shaft. A very small nick in it. I replaced it an checked it with the drill and pulling on the throttle did produce spurts of fuel out the back. I slapped 12 volts on the solenoid for that test.
I eventually got it to spin fast enough on the third try of starting to fire up and it is functioning for the most part on the car now. Never would have thought that small nick to make that much of a difference.
It is odd to me that you don't have leakage at the pump with it running. That fluid is under a fair amount of pressure and if you are bleeding air in you'd think diesel would be coming out someplace.
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The pump shaft seal is under vacuum when it's running so it's always a prime candidate when air is getting in but fuel isn't leaking out. The other place of course being the injector return lines.
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The pump shaft seal is under vacuum when it's running so it's always a prime candidate when air is getting in but fuel isn't leaking out. The other place of course being the injector return lines.
Good info. I'm sure the return lines are good, as they're new, and clear, and I can see what's going on there.
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Where is the place to buy a seal kit these days?
Anyone? I really need to get this ordered.
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fwiw, I've checked with all my usual suspects, and tdi stuff seems to be plentiful, while idi stuff... notsomuch
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ebay is where a friend gets them
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I ordered a seal kit and dial indicator/adapter this morning. And not a minute too soon... it's been doing some weird stuff... revving to the moon on its own, etc. Stuff should be here saturday, so I should be cussing and throwing things on Monday.