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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ropadopa on June 04, 2014, 02:38:01 pm
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Not sure if this is the right place for this if not feel free to direct me to right place even if its out the door. lol
Been eye balling the used oil barrel at the shop and making some calculations.
Im hip to the whole process people using centrifuges and heat to boil out the water, and then there are claims of just running on it straight.
I used to have a guy that came buy in his MB 240d and pump it through a filter and right into his car. Even put a few gallons in his Cummings when he needed to.
I also realize that im already top of the food chain with my ecodiesel mpg.s but i have this idea of running 50/50 mix after straining some of the stuff off the top through some 100 micron filters with diesel.
Am i barking up the wrong tree?
Im currently getting almost 250 miles per 20 dollars of diesel pump @ 4 bucks a gallon, 500 on 20 sounds even better not to mention the barrel is getting full and i need to do something about it.
thought please
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As long as you get it CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN and don't go over 50% mixed with regular diesel you should be good to go. Just be aware that WMO usually has all kinds of fun particles in it that will shorten the life of your pump and injectors. Yes, you can dump it straight in and yes, it will work for a while but the VE pump head in particular will get destroyed over time by the fine metal grit that will be in pretty much any WMO. IDI engines are better suited to this stuff for sure as the injectors are way less picky.
If you can centrifuge it first that would take away a lot of the concerns. Just remember that the stock VW filters are not very fine - somewhere around 30 micron at best - so don't try to rely on them for keeping your equipment in good condition. If you can, run it through some better filters going down to 2 micron before it ever sees your tank.
The MB 240D that your guy used to come around in had an inline pump, meaning each cylinder has its own dedicated pumping element. The VE pump has only a single element that has to do the work of all 4 elements in the Mercedes pump - 4 x the work means 4 x the wear.
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I am with VanBCGuy. Clean it way better than 100 microns. You can start with that one but then go to a 20 then at least a 10 but 2 would be best. That was the setup my son used on his WVO stuff.
Then the mixing thing. I would go 70 30 rather than 50 50 With the larger portion being fresh diesel. So for all the work you will save yourself 3 gallons of 4 dollar fuel in a 10 gallon tank. I know it is free but your time is money. 12 bucks is it worth it? is 20?
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Aren't there marine diesel filters that basically accept a roll of shop towels as filter media?
Might be a good first stage. You'll probably need a lift pump.
On modern diesels with particulate filters, guys who run WMO in the engine oil sense clog the hell out of the particulate filters.
Can also do a number on catalytic converters, so i hear.
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Yup, nothing newer than an IDI is very forgiving with waste based fuels. Mainly due to emissions reasons - diesel in the 70s & 80s was a much different thing, way closer to waste oil / bunker fuel. Modern engines demand modern fuel!
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thanks again guys, I already have the 100 micron filters that sit on a 5 gallon bucket, I found some bags that go to 1 micron,
Im wondering if i could go from the 100 micron down to 1-5 micron using gravity. I feel that i could take overnight just to put a gallon through a 1 micron sack
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wdkingery or similar name hear wasted his pump in less than 30,000 miles running this IIRC. So new rebuilt pump, used pump, or junk the car in short order??? If you replace the pump is the fuel money you saved worth it?
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Good info once again, Thats what i was looking for .
So to recap a few of my calculations, Yes time and effort are worth something, some value it more than others.
A few say it may be alright if done correctly and get it down to a few micron but still worry about the pump.
Money wise it sounded good when you could double your mpg , but you have to factor in Time, Money spent on filters.
I have 15 bucks into the 100 micron filters 2 0f them but the seem to be re usable for a few sessions and the 1 micron socks i found online look to be about 3-5 bucks a piece, probably not to reusable.
I'm sweating the pump bit , as i have not ventured that far into rebuilding or replacing one, But maybe one i physically do it i could evaluate the skill/time/cost it does to dick around with that stuff.
Meanwhile i will refrain from making eye contact with that barrel in the shop.
Once again thanks for all the chat on this subject and if any one has anything to add dont be shy.
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The thing that will fail on the pump is the high pressure head. The rest of it is pretty tolerant to sub-micron stuff. Unfortunately the high pressure head is also the single most expensive part of the pump. A genuine Bosch one is about $1k new so you basically are looking for another pump at that point.
You can usually buy a good used pump for about $350 that has been resealed and is ready to go.
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Oh look, ANOTHER 1992 ECOdiesel pops up.
What's that nonsense about only 47 of them sold?? ::) ::)
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Oh look, ANOTHER 1992 ECOdiesel pops up.
What's that nonsense about only 47 of them sold?? ::) ::)
yeah it seems that all 47 made it to the internet toooo lol
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One way you may be able to cut the time down on filtering the final stage to 1 micron is to do what they have to do to get WVO to go through any sort of filters. Warm it up to about 90 degrees. Here in this neck of the woods that takes some doing with electric heat or double boiler arrangements. Direct flames near hot oil? You see the problem or the need for a handy fire extinguisher?
If I were you I wouldn't go directly to the 1 micron but to a 10 that is a much better way to grab most of the nasties out and spend the final stage doing the fine filter work. Otherwise you may not be able to wash them out very well as they will be overloaded with "stuff".
My son filters hundreds of gallons of WVO in the great state of Idaho and is able to let it set out and settle out for months and then filters it in a batch. Still takes time every weekend to putter around with it until the big days of pumping, washing filters, Centrifuge work and clean, and more pumping. So value your time and times the value. It still might just be worth the fun factor or the knowing that the barrel of plenty is not going to go dry and it is free, free, free.
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basically i came to the realization, as many have, that "waste oil" is a misnomer as it is always feed stock for some industrial process or other.
it's just that some companies have a racket going where they get paid to haul it away. Those days are numbered.
But i do take my used engine oil to the autozone and pour it into their collector. I prefer the autozone because, among the half dozen auto parts stores within a mile or two from home, they are the one that lets me just walk back and pour it myself instead of having to go 'round back and hassle someone or some nonsense.
I considered making my own diesel and then decided that if i had a small business where i had trucks rolling every day it might be worth setting up to do it right. But short of that, no thanks, I have better things to do with my time.
"grease car" rigs sound fun until you hear about what it does to an injection pump over time.
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A nice way to deal with the filtering without having to waste a lot of time is setting up a "polishing" rig. Basically a circulation pump and some good filters connected to your storage tank whatever it may be. I'd still do an initial settle to let the chunky stuff fall out before transferring and I'd still do a good filtration on transferring to your polishing rig but if you can get a hold of another drum it'd be a good way to go.
Find a high volume / low pressure pump of some sort, have it suck through a good filter like one of the Racor Turbines or something (they've got a good water / particle separator before the actual filter) and then return to the tank. Let it sit there running for as long as possible - several days minimum.
Something like this for the filter:
(http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/images/tbn_ctawy03.gif)
While these aren't the cheapest to buy, the elements are only about $5 so your running costs would be low. The longer it sits there circulating the cleaner the waste oil is going to be.
Basically you'd be building a miniature version of a polishing system - this is a commercial one used for polishing fuel in large storage tanks:
http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/7872_Rev_B_(BUL_FC-20-1-120V_Fuel_Polishing_Cart).pdf
Since you're only dealing with a drum rather than a massive tank you can use a much smaller filter / pump, but the idea is the same. You really can't have too much filtration!
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Yeah, set up a mini station and flip the switch and let it roll. I have one of those self priming Racor water separating filters on the backside of a 10 micron heated filter on my veggie side. The Racor filter is 2 micron and I think the filters were several times higher than $5. I bought two at the same time for a small discount. I wasn't real worried about my IP being gummed up at the time and now that I am on diesel all the time I don't worry at all. For the extra thicking of the current diesel I buy I wax it up.
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The barrel keeps calling me, This is my latest plan.
The barrrel has been settling for at least a year with adding to it maybe once every other week. Florida temps have been reaching into the 90's lately, oil is probably at least 80 degrees.
I was thinking about putting a magnet in the bottom of it for good luck.
Im looking to do 20 gallons probably going to cost 40 bucks in filters initially but next time being free
Going to cup it out by hand of the top and pour it through a 100 micron 5 gallon bucket strainer then into a 10 micron sock then into a 1 micron sock then mix 60/40 with pump diesel with the 60 being diesel.
Looking for some feedback good or bad and some real life experience on pump failure.
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search wdkingery
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I just did, I was hoping my process would be a step or 2 from his....lol
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wdkingery or similar name hear wasted his pump in less than 30,000 miles running this IIRC. If you replace the pump is the fuel money you saved worth it?
For the record, the pump survived the 30k miles. I dumped unfiltered ATF and scarred the pump's walls, but it recovered and worked fine (even "Damaged"). I was running straight WMO towards the end. The final nail was I got done foolin with the damn car, and my education began to get a bit more difficult, so the first real no start killed the project; I could easily still be driving it.
The biggest cost is time. The savings are substantial.
30k miles @ 50 MPG @ $3.76 a gallon: $2256 in fuel
30k miles @ 35 MPG @ $3.76 a gallon on 80/20: $644 in fuel (assuming WMO is free [for me it was])
$2256
- 644
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$1612 free money minus $50 in filters, $100 @ the junkyard on starters and battery cables.
I had to replace the IP before the WMO started, and the WMO didn't wipe the pump out in the 30k. So you could probably start with a good used pump and go @ least 30k before major pump damage (I wouldn't have had any noticeable damage during the entire run if it wasn't for that one unfiltered ATF event. Not to say there wasn't damage, just that it didn't directly affect my point A to point B)
RopaDopa from flotida:
I have over 30k miles experience with WMO/black diesel/ATF/gear oil. You can easily go on black diesel for quite some time. I went all the way down the rabbit hole. The beginnings of my work are documented here, but the for majority of the experience I was too busy doin the damn thing to keep vwdiesel.net updated.
The shorts:
The engine and IP will put up with a bunch of abuse.
The vehicle essentially won't misfire due to fuel quality, so if it's misfirin, there's starvation occurring; need to remove the screen in the gas tank first thing.
It will run on 100% WMO, but she's not gonna like it; only do that in a pinch. Tough to keep started, won't go very fast until real warm.
80/20 WMO/diesel works good, or 80/10/10 wmo/gas/diesel for the winter.
You'll know if you have gone too rich on your black diesel mixture when the car will start but dies quickly, or dies approaching speed until the tank is warm.
You'll know your injectors are coked when the smoke becomes unbearable.
Plan for slow acceleration, with a reduced top speed, especially when the mix is thick. advance timing every few months.
Plan to go through a bunch more fuel then before. Still works out to a penny or two a mile, even at mid to low 30's MPG. Get a backup IP; i have one you can buy for cheap. I never had pump problems though (started on a new/reman one from thedieselstore.com) if on the cheap like I was, try cutting the WMO before filtering, to speed up the gravity filtration process, particularly in winter. If you have some coins, get a centrifuge setup and let it spin all day; less time consuming.
Replace your fuel filter system with a gas station filtration setup: 1" connections, filters that hold quarts. all parts can be had at tractor supply, reducers at lowes. Reduces filter replacement.
Plan for winter. Bosch duraterms, battery cables running to every GP, dual batteries, triple the power/ground going to the starter and you'll survive with minimal frustration. Starter speed is important. Go to junkyard and strip a pickup truck or work van of all of its battery/starter cables. Good compression is key though. Hone, rering and adjust valves before winter hits if necessary. Gas engine starters will work fine, they just burn up much quicker.
Your main enemy is temperature/viscosity. Injector coking second issue. During the summer (if you live south enough) you can essentially get away with murder. Filtration (Wildly) isn't as big a deal as it would seem. I mean do it anyway; bag/sock style filters down to 1 micron are only 5 bucks and will knock out a few hundred gallons before they get slow. ATF is the stuff you are after; viscosity no longer an issue with ATF. Problem is ATF has the AT friction material in it. It doesn't come out, not even at a micron. But under a micron will be fine. DO NOT DUMP straight ATF into the tank though. I got in a hurry once and did 5 gallons, and the innerds of the pump began seizin up on the way home.. just imagine that friction material doing work on the pump! It was like killin the ignition between every power stroke. Eventually it cleared up 92% (tho wasn't exactly right after that.)
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thanks for the real life discription
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Would running ATF in a centrifuge for a few days, after running it through a 1micron sock, be acceptable? Or would there still be potential problems?
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Would running ATF in a centrifuge for a few DAYS
Overkill
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From what I've read about centrifuges, you need to clean the bowl and then see if it is still collecting "stuff" to determine when it's done. This depends on the type of centrifuge you are using (single pass or multipass).
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Would running ATF in a centrifuge for a few DAYS
Overkill
This. Mtrans knows what's up, btw. Very knowledgeable.
If you pass the atf/wmo thru a cheap fram oil filter before it hits the centrifuge you'll find the centrifuge never needs cleaning. And that's not even to 1 micron. I suspect the centifuge to only be helpful for speed, not filtration
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Just rolling man,remember not two oil is same.
Always is good to use both.