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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: bigbertha72 on February 25, 2014, 07:47:38 pm
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I'm new to diesels. I have a golf that i have swapped a 86 na idi motor into. The motor I bought used with a bad injection pump. I then bought a used injection pump that claimed to be in good condition
This is what I have done to it.
I put in new freeze plugs
The cylinders had no noticeable ridge and minimal soot (so i just cleaned the soot off)
Put in head studs
New headgasket (right notch I measured the popout of the pistons)
I gasket match ported the head and lapped the valves
New Timing Belt
Timed it to 1.0
Pulled the fuel pump (it was a gasser) and made pickup tubes
I have a a inline fuel pump to bleed out the lines.
I wired up the glowplugs similar to the pimp my glow plugs.
Measured the voltage drop and the ohms at each glowplug. .9ohm on 3 of them one at .8ohm (They get warm I can feel them)
Brand new 1000ca battery
I cranked the motor over trying to get it to start after bleeding out the lines. Wasn't getting any where, so i recracked the fuel lines from the injectors and notice there wasn't a lot of fuel coming out. Pulled the lines back off the pump to get a better look. Thats when I noticed it seemed like it was putting out low fuel pressure. It was about 50f out and I left the glow plugs on for about 45 seconds to try and get it to start.
I made a short video of it ( turn off the sound, i didn't think to mute it)
http://youtu.be/NqedN8841ho
Does the pump need to be resealed or is that normal? Trying to get it running and its not wanting to popoff. Thinking it has to do with the fuel pressure. Like I said, I have little experience in the diesel world. I was getting fuel while cranking it over because it was puffing out white smoke. And it sounded like it wanted to try and start a couple of times but just never would. I tried then to bump the timing up and down and it didn't really seem to change anything. Also tried using the cold start lever and it didn't help. I'm open to suggestions, I've tried to find the answer in the forum but I am at a lost.
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BB72, Given all you have done to this engine and looking at the video I think you are very close on this. The output of fuel is about normal from what I can tell. The pressure at the injectors is what matters. There isn't a lot of fuel going into them during normal operation. How do you think we get 50 mpg out of these little buggers if they suck a lot of juice?
The fact that you got white smoke coming out and you have tried rocking the timing up and back says to me you are near where you want to be. But you do have to get fuel up and out the top of the injectors so slap those lines on again, hose off the spitting fuel as it is not good to have on hoses and such. Then bleed the system as you did so you see fuel seeping out the top of the nut. I have found that pulling the cold start level never hurts starting a cold engine. It bumps the timing a bit, but what really isn't so well known is that holding the accelerator down about half to a third of the way to the floor really helps. Once that engine barks the IP starts to spin up and really does deliver the fuel compared to the cranking starter motor.
That used pump doesn't look to have bad or stuck vanes in the impeller, at least the fuel out the back says that isn't the problem. You don't say if the throttle arm was repositioned on the IP. That is the bane of most rebuilds I think, it has to be set right according to the alignment marks or by feel of when the resistance of the throttle arm starts and there are plenty of threads that describe that process.
Getting the IP and injectors matched with the timing is what we are after here. Setting the timing to 1.0 might be a bit on the advanced side as well and can cause the white smoke. But you did say you played with other settings. I would go back to the settings of .88 or .90 if I were you until you get it running. Once that is happening and all the air is out of your pump and system I might think about a change.
That is all I can offer this late at night. Brain be sleepy.
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Looks line god volume to me.
If you have the old style pump pulley, it will have 2 holes you can fit the timing stop tool in, and it is possible to get the timing 180 out.
...TDC #1 compression, cam tits up, the keyway on the pump pulley should point upward unless the pump was assembled wrong(pretty rare).
Is the fuel itself good?
You have to have a proper OUT banjo bolt on the pump out fitting, and a more open one at the inlet.
I find after a long sit, high cranking speed is more needed than any other time, and a rope tow or big truck w/ jumpers can be quite expedient.
I am with the previous poster, put the pipes back on, purge them,and try a bit more.
PS does the starter sound really harsh, or is that just the video?
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IP output looks ok to me, too.
The IP 180o issue is easy to check: by turning the engine by hand, a blob of fuel should come out of the #1 delivery valve a few degrees before TDC.
Got compression numbers?
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If it has been a while since it started and you know the timing is good, try pull starting it. The IP can trap some air that takes a bit to get it out sometimes. The pull usually gets it spinning fast enough to fire. After the first start that way, run it for a good while and it should start normally if it was just air.
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Reset timing to .9 and when i was trying to rebleed the lines i noticed that cylinder 3 wouldn't bleed. I pulled the fitting off the back of the pump. The valve was sticking so i cleaned that and then was able to bleed the lines and get it to start.
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745 is right! That starter sounds rugged. I made the mistake of having the volume up.
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I'm going through the same thing on a car with a mix of parts that were working fine before as well as new bosch injectors.
My pump is just a used runner I cleaned and used in more than one car before.
I primed the sucker up and let it run for a good while and bled the cooling system and came back today and 10 seconds and just puffing out the pipe. Took me a couple more cycles with pedal down before the poor car came to life.
I was getting some thicker smoke for a good 5 minutes with the cold start pulled that made me think my timing is off a touch, even though I'm a tick under the higher number in the bently.
I don't have time yet, but I am getting power to my glowplug setup and put new plugs in this engine that I tested not long ago, but I will check again.
That brings me to same question that may be the same thing you are dealing with.
What do the pros suggest if somebody has a used pump that has ran, but are at the high limit of timing by the book?
Do they bump the advance to a higher number by ear if the injector noise allows it and the car responds well?
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Look for an air leak, then check transfer pressure.
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Your starter sounds like it is cranking at good RPMs. Put in a clear fuel return line between IP to tank and crank to bleed till the clear line is without bubbles. Then bleed the injector hard lines by having one injector line nut loose 1/4 turn and crank till it starts (fuel should be squirting out of the loose nut as you crank). If the timing is good and the IP is fine and the injectors are fine and the compression is good and the glow plugs are good it should start.
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Remember to keep your skin away from the pressurized diesel. These engines don't put out too much but diesel in the skin is a bad day.
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Well I got it running, but its still not right. I'm getting a lot of white smoke still. Is white smoke retarded timing?
Here's another video of it ( its LOUD) think I am going to have to put a muffler on it.
http://youtu.be/r1g-bMP3Hv0
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Judging one of these engines running by the exhaust color (at first start-up) is pointless. It is not up to temp. The cylinders have had diesel fuel and probably oil, etc. injected and spilled and placed in them while you worked on it and tried to start it for so long. If you set the timing to a full 1.00 mm on an N/A engine, it may be a bit much (advanced). There is clearly a point at which too much is too much (too soon, etc).
Yes, these n/a's without a muffler are torture. I am sure some 16 year-old-ish will write in and tell you the loudness excites the girls on the playground at school, etc. But, no muffler on one of these is a beootch. One with a turbocharger is quieter.
I listened to your youtube several times. It almost seems like I am also hearing the cam belt roar. If THAT is the case, it is way too tight. And, running it tight is going to educate you about worn intermediate shaft bearings and pump problems. But, hey....why should you NOT get the experience....right?
Don't forget to rev it up when you go past the playground...........
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Ok, i set the belt looser than an aba motor, but i will double check it and make sure it's not to tight. I had it up to about 190f it was getting late and didn't want to make my neighbors hate me more. What's a good muffler for these little diesels? I am to old and drive way to much to deal with loud exhaust. Magnaflow, borla, or something else?
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Here is what has worked extremely well for me regarding belts:
1) use ball of palm of hand (hypothenar eminence, actually) to push down on belt between cam pulley and pump pulley (nothing locked in place....cold belt)(this brings all the slack to that one place).
2) can you twist the belt (using one finger and thumb.....if you still got it!) about 70 degrees without hurting the ligaments in the fingers)? Maybe twist it just a little more? Good, then that is about right. I have yet to see one skip from being too loose (within reason). And, have heard many guys destroy stuff from too tight, though).
3) Yes, it's just THAT quick and easy.....zip-bang.....gimme anotter beer!
Now, once the belt heats up, it is going to tighten. Don't believe me....check it out for yourself.
Mufflers is largely a matter of: "...what can YOU afford?" (Naw, those kids don' need no shews this month!).
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First, thanks for all the help so far guys. Now I double checked the belt and it was a bit to tight, so l loosen it up some. I put on a magnaflow muffler on it, its not quite but I can live with it. I let it run about 15 minutes and it still is pouring out white smoke. Then I noticed the dipstick was leaking oil. I swear a large number of vw owners are some of the cheapest people out there that will never fix a problem right. Instead of putting on a new o-ring the previous owner zip tied a piece of rubber hose to the dipstick and shoved it in the block that way. So now I need to get the o-ring and washer to fix it right. But on the bright side I was able to use a 1990 to 1992 Mk2 to Heater Core coolant flange with AC. Which allowed me to use the stock aba fan switch/sending unit, so I can use the stock cluster to read the coolant temp and operate the fans. I still need to make some hangers for the exhaust and hook up the clutch cable and adjust the shift linkage. Then I can give it a test drive, but the smoke is a concern to me.
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What am I missing here....am I slow or what? Now, help me out....what model is this car....Mk. II or III. Your little picture looks like a 93 or up. I honestly can't tell.
So, this was a gas car. Fine....did you entirely pull the gas tank and get ALL the water and gas out? Or how did you handle THAT?
Now, what are you doing for fuel lines from the tank to the engine bay?
What I am getting at is air ingestion and old gas ingestion. If this was a Mk. II, how did you do away with the fuel box, accumulator, and fuel filter?
What in the he77 are you doing for a fuel filter? Either I am missing some pretty important details or I am insane. Or....perhaps, you are glossing past some seemingly important details.
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More to the point, white smoke is commonly from delayed combustion, which can result from various conditions:
Air in the lines gets into the IP and injector lines. That causes injectors to open later. Use clear fuel lines to diagnose.
Mis-timing: improper preload or mis-setting "zero" on dial gauge is easy.
Low residual pressure in the hardlines. One delivery valve was duff (#3), maybe they all need cleaning.
High injector pop-pressure causes them to open later. Pop-test for reading, adjust timing accordingly.[/li]
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Can you do one more video(audio) of the idle, but stand about 5 ft away in front of car with hood down.
This will help reduce some of the resonances and 'standardize' the sound for me to compare it with other engines.
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Sorry if it wasn't clear, here is what I did for the fuel system
1995 VW Golf Factory 2.0 gasser
I pulled the tank and pump- made new pickup and return lines in tank
Tank was completely drained of gas
Replaced all factory rubber gas lines with new Trident fuel hose (diesel, biodiesel, e85 compatible hose)
Plumbed in a factory idi fuel filter in the engine bay.
I cracked the fittings on the injectors to make sure they were bleed good. A good mist came out of all four injectors when barely cracked open, so there doesn't seem to be any air. I can try and get some clear hose to make sure.
And I will try and get another video up once I take care of the leaking dipstick and put the hood back on.
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I guess I will pull the injectors tomorrow and do a compression test and hopefully rule out that. I will call one of the diesel places around here on Monday and see who I can get to pop test the injectors.
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Thanks for the details on how you worked on fuel tank, etc. Now, it sounds like you are running good fuel instead a mix of old questionable stuff.
Myself, I would not pull the injectors. I would shore up the dip stick problem and then go run this car some in close proximity of home. Why? Because, no damage is going to come from having the timing off (this isn't like a gas engine). Additionally, if you drove it some, the pump and injectors would probably clean out some (run some atf--dexron or buy some stanadyne or a combo of both...put a little 2-stroke mix for lube) and the combustion chambers would clean out as well.
If this engine has been sitting for quite awhile (not being used), the rings will probably loosen up some and improve compression. If the engine is starting (cold starting) relatively easy (PLEASE no ether), it has adequate compression to run.
When you fire this up, does the overflow bottle start bubbling up within a couple or few minutes? Or does the little remote reservoir NOT run over until the engine gets good and warm?
I gotta tell you, I've been driving these cars since '79 and I don't really give two poops what the exhaust looks or don't look like. Unless, of course, if it is profusely "wrong." Until you run this and get the fuel components rinsed through with clean fuel and some conditioner or hillbilly conditioner (as above), I don't think you or anyone else knows what is what. I mean, if you start to pull out of the driveway and it can't pull itself....then ya, you got problems. That is what I think.
And, as far as the dipstick goes.....it is just leaking at the BASE of the dipstick or is the engine pumping oil all the way to the top of the tube? Myself, I NEVER use the annoying as he77 stock dipsticks. I use the shorter, stronger gasoline tubes and dip sticks. They are better and easier to live with. You just have to literally gently bend them forward to clear the fuel pump.
If the engine continues to produce profuse white smoke after running it, I might well suspect a timing problem or anti-freeze getting into the chambers. Did you put a straight-edge to that head when it was off? Well....there you go.
Added: these cars utilize a one-way valve in the fuel line right after it leaves the tank (on the way toward the engine). If you loose the pump prime after the car sits for a couple or more hours, you may well need to add a one-way to the fuel supply line. The stock is just a no-frills small valve.
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Its been sitting a few months since I had it, the guy I got it from said he had only pulled it a month or 2 before. So I'd say its safe to say its been sitting six months now. I was also wondering if maybe the rings were sticking and causing some of the issues.
I honestly can't remember if I used my flat bar on it or now. I usually do but I honestly can't remember doing it.
I just finished the hangers for the exhaust and finally sat the car back down off of jack stands. I'm going try and swap the dipsticks over, once I figure out how to get it out of the aba motor.
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Huh....an ABA. Well, the dipsticks I "swipped" were out of 1.8's, it is true. I had the oil pans off and simply gently reached up from the bottom with a long punch, etc., and tapped them out. I am not sure if the ABA is the same length and design or not. Those gas ones come out pretty hard.
You can see if gently grasping the tube toward the top with some "rounded" vise grips.....and, then tapping on the bottom of the vise grip (vertically) with a small mallet. Boy, don't collapse that tube though. I suppose you still have oil in that older engine?
If you successfully get the tube out and insert it into the new diesel engine, and you have the correct amount of oil in the new engine, see what the "oil level area" on the stick sez. If needed, scribe a line. I just always hated the original long-tubular-prone to leak and hard to read "wire" dip sticks. Plus, I always managed to have the tube catch my shirt sleeve and rip it every time I reached in the bay.
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I used the aba dipstick with some silicone to seal it to the block. Cleaned everything real good then let it set up (for a week). Dipstick seems not to be leaking atleast. Got the new coolant jug on, got the egt gauge wired up, oil pressure gauge mounted up. I only had water for the coolant until I made sure it wasn't leaking. So I'm going to go ahead and drain the water and put in the vw coolant. But I went to move the car and and when i went to shift it into gear nothing worked. I know I need to adjust the shifter again because I'm only able to hit reverse, but even then the pedals going all the way up. Not sure what went wrong, I did knock the clutch cable off the pedal, but I put it back on. I used the aba clutch and flywheel and its the stock aba trans.
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Well I was able to get the clutch cable to readjust enough to move it back up the drive. But I need to try and get it to click again because it still isn't right or just get a manually cable.
Well I have a bad feeling the head gasket leaking. There is not oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. But the reservoir jug won't stay full. It rises and lowers as the engine runs and has large bubbles in it. Was hoping there was just an air pocket but after running it for 30min and topping off as needed, large bubbles are still in the reservoir. But its not overheating, sitting right at between 190-200 by factory guage and the fans kick on an off as needed. Though egt readings are sitting between 500-600 at idle which seems high to me. Exhuast is still pouring out white smoke, but its not sweet smelling at all.
Open to any ideas before I pull the head. But I have a feeling that is whats going to happen.
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With the engine stone cold, remove the coolant reservoir cap. Start the car. If the coolant is bubbling right away, then yes, it's pretty much a for sure thing you have a headgasket issue.
EDIT: Are you sure your new dipstick reads the proper oil level?