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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on September 02, 2013, 08:44:07 am
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I figured I'd start a new thread so as not to steal flowmastergfunk's. Besides, he was talking about headlamp relays as 8v-of-fury pointed out.
. . .
They will normalize at 9-11 amps but I think when it is cold at first pull they will draw way more. IIRC someone was saying that they will pull around 60 each and then it comes down really fast, less than 1/2 second to the 9-11 amp area.
I am running all four on the 88 off of a single 40A automotive 4 blade relay.
It still started with no issues last winter. The relay was used when I put it in, and is still fine. I have it setup with power directly from battery, relay, plugs. So like 13" tops.
I have two "standard" 40 amp relays easily available in my new set up and want to unload the long run on the van wiring. I suppose just to be safe I could run two GP's off each.
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I see no issue with your plan. It would be easier to use a single relay but if it's a matter of using what you have then go for it.
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I see no issue with your plan. It would be easier to use a single relay but if it's a matter of using what you have then go for it.
Well, actually I have already started without any relays, just the four fuses. Then I ran across this thread and started thinking (my first mistake ;D). From what I've read though the relay(s) do take a lot of load off the expensive VW timed relay and possibly provide higher amperage as well due to the shorter run.
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or use automat from any startermotor.
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Thanks for the idea - I'm sure that would work as well.
I'm trying to keep my engine bay somewhat tidy and I already have a fuse and relay combination panel I purchased. The relay section has room for five relays and I'm only using three for other items. That leaves two for the GP's - all in one place and under a nice cover as well. From what I've learned, one will do it and two will definitely do it.
I'll post photos when I'm done.
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I need to get the glow plugs hooked up my Passat. I'm wondering best option. Id like to do it with the key but that may be more trouble than its worth? Sorry to hijack giz just didn't want to start another thread for it.
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A Stock glowplug relay from the mk1-mk2-mk3 (aaz) cars should be super easy.
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It isnt too hard with or without a harness. Im almost finished adding a glowplug system to an 85 golf in place of where the fuel pump relay would be. You "could" just add the necessary wires and connectors and place the relay out of site but I wanted more of an original approach. Set up a relay test bench and then do the same thing... but in the car. The hardest part is figuring out where all of the (+) and (-) lines should be connected b ut if you have a bentley you are ahead of the game.
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I need to get the glow plugs hooked up my Passat. I'm wondering best option. Id like to do it with the key but that may be more trouble than its worth? Sorry to hijack giz just didn't want to start another thread for it.
No worries bbob - I got the direction I was looking for. Sometimes I ask dumb questions but I'm still learnin
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No problem on the threadjack, and there are no stupid questions here! It's all learning! You the route I went, but in more detail, the out from the stock timed relay went to the trigger on the universal solenoid. At first, I had two 30a fuses, each running a pair of gp's...but the whole reason I started the conversion was to have individual fuses, in case one plug went bad. When starting with smaller fuses, I had certainly gone through several. Not sure how many, if any, 30a ones I replaced when the plugs were paired, but it shouldn't be a problem if they were individually fused.
I am certainly going to grab another Saab fuse block if I see another one in the junker! Even though smaller style fuses would work just fine, I like that this setup is STURDY and easy to test! The radio shack fuse setup looked like hell. I am sure there are other stereo install type fused distribution blocks that would also work well, but the junkyard setup was definitely cheaper...and it came with free fuses ;D
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Do you have a part number for the Saab timed relay? I have been doing a search for one that looks like this
(http://www.traderscity.com/board/userpix9/7746-automotive-relay-1.jpg) except it would have a timer.
The plan is to have the WAIC pump and cooling fan stay on for a minute after I shut off the engine. This would help remove heat from heat soak and keep things from boiling over.
I can find lots of 12 volt relays with timers but none with the 4 or five blades which would be perfect.
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Cool, I added "Saab" to my search and found this
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=5vndmz3pf5shtw2s0z1fcnix&makeid=65@Saab&modelid=6522~20~639~625~~5~5@900%20%20&year=1987&cid=relay@relay&gid=3432@Rear%20Window%20Defroster%20Relay (http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=5vndmz3pf5shtw2s0z1fcnix&makeid=65@Saab&modelid=6522~20~639~625~~5~5@900%20%20&year=1987&cid=relay@relay&gid=3432@Rear%20Window%20Defroster%20Relay)
Once I got the part number, I searched again and found this
http://www.epartsland.com/products/saab-900-classic-defroster-relay-part-8588220-898290-9519133-898459 (http://www.epartsland.com/products/saab-900-classic-defroster-relay-part-8588220-898290-9519133-898459). Wow, from 50 to 10 bucks - Jim Ellis want 100 ;D
What I don't know is that it is simply listed as a defogger relay. Don't know if that means its a delay off, delay on, or how long the delay is.
Any help appreciated.
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uh oh! Maybe I worded something wrong here....but the only think I used from a Saab was a fuse block/ distribution block.
I use the stock VW glowplug relay, but I use the output to go to my HD relay...so there is little to no strain on the stock unit. I ultimately just use it for the timer. Do you still have a working factory relay?
Here is a picture of my setup to help simplify and explain.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i248/flowmastergfunk/DSCF0071_zps5ac280f0.jpg) (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/flowmastergfunk/media/DSCF0071_zps5ac280f0.jpg.html)
The right side of the relay is constant battery power. The top wire on the relay is the factory wire that normally goes to the first glowplug, where it starts the "daisy chain" across all 4 plugs. I use it to trigger the hd unit... so the current to the glowplugs flows from the battery, straight through the HD relay, to the main post of the fuse block(that's the Saab unit), then through those individual fuses right over to the plugs. I hope that helps!
If you don't have a working stock glow relay, I have an extra one and I am in SD too :)
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That's a very generous offer! Mine is fine though.I think I misread your post - you worded it fine. Maybe I just wanted to get a timed relay so bad I changed it in my head.
The good thing is I found a timed relay with the proper terminals by adding "Saab" into the search words - so thanks for that. All I need to find out now is if its an off delay timer, and for how long the delay is.
Not sure why a window defroster would need a delay but that's the description.
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Well, I didn't find a lot of info on the Saab timed relay, but what I did find is that it basically works under power - which won't work for me. I believe it's "timed" to turn off before the rear window gets too hot - somewhere around ten minutes.
No biggie, I'll just have to remember to idle the engine for a minute or two after a spirited drive which is good practice anyhow - keeps the turbo bearings from getting coked up.\\BTW flowmastergfunk, thanks for the great photo and explanation of your GP relay wiring. Not exactly what I am doing but close enough!
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I don't understand why people, especially those in warm climates, add 4 fuses and another relay, when the OE glow relay is perfectly adequate.
If you want to make it easy to find which glow plug is burned out, replace the bus bar with 4 individual wires, tied to the feed from the glow plug relay. If you have a clamp on dc ammeter, you don't even need to break the 4 wire tie point to find the bad glow plug.
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All my 1.6's started way better cold when i put in a solenoid off the battery and hooked the glowplugs up to it. Also some folks have had issues with stuff catching on fire.
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I had a relay next to the battery and found no difference in wintet starting so I undid it and went back to stock relay (modified for manual control) and got rid of the extra mess of wires.
Hell I installed a block heater and never used it
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I did mine up with the outside the passenger compartment heavy loaded relay. Just wasn't right in my mind that sort of juice be inside then run back out. I wonder if the increased length on the OEM setup would be measurable with a clamp on meter at the GPs?
I hate crawling up under the dash for electrical problems. My neck no longer has that sort of flexibility.
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I don't understand why people, especially those in warm climates, add 4 fuses and another relay, when the OE glow relay is perfectly adequate.
If you want to make it easy to find which glow plug is burned out, replace the bus bar with 4 individual wires, tied to the feed from the glow plug relay. If you have a clamp on dc ammeter, you don't even need to break the 4 wire tie point to find the bad glow plug.
This is an 82 Vanagon and the wires have a longer run for the high amps. When I'm done, it will be no more than 2 feet or so.
Besides that, I'll have everything handy right in the engine bay. Both the ignition switch and the GP relay are notorious for failure as they were just barely capable of getting the job done. What I'm doing is taking the load off of them and putting it onto a relay(s) that can be found in any FLAPS - probably anywhere in the world.
Adding the GP wiring and fuses is simply an extension of what I was doing anyway. I am adding a WAIC pump and additional radiator with fan, plus an oil cooler rad with fan as well. Doing all that without simply adding separate fuses to the GP's (at the same time) would have been "hard to understand".
As to setting it up for Southern California, I'm building it for travel when I retire (yeah, I'm getin' old). Heck, I've even put a block heater in it ;).
The little lady and I hope to wake up in it at about 8,000 feet somewhere in the rockies, cook up some bacon and eggs, a few slices of fried toast and then hit the trail. Could be a long walk out if I set it up for "warm climates".
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I am going on about 5 years experience with these older vw's, my first one being an 85 jetta.
I have only personally experienced a few times where the stock setup had issues.
I think they all have lead back to the little vw relay mounted on firewall with a cover. I don't understand why but I have seen wierd power delivery before out of nowhere and 2 that burnt out.
I had an older ford 6.9 before the vw's with their own nasty problems. Tons of juice going through a harness in the engine bay that liked to arch out and melt. A controller that sits in coolant port on engine that was known to go nuts. Some cooler old dudes had told me when I got it to put a manual switch on the glowplugs and byapass the controller and to relay the headlights, because again of juice going through the breaker type headlight switch and starting fires :(
I have actually never seen a failed relay that I have got from one of these trucks in the junkyard and I use them on each vw I come across now. So stock wire as trigger, one of their nasty relays and the fusebox, individual rewire job since I am in there. Plus I love the loud clunking noise that lets me know where the juice is at :)
With all that babble out of the way, I have talked to a few other owners that never even knew that vw relay existed and just drive their cars :)
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There's a chance my stock setup would have lasted another 30 years.
Still, the bakelite block that held the 50 amp strip fuse was well cooked at some point in the Van's life, but it cleaned up nicely and I'm still using it. Some of the nearby wires were melted in the mishap and the PO had them taped up. All in all a cruddy mess.
That, along with the added fans and pump seemed to be a good reason to take it up a few notches. Is it overkill? - absolutely.
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The best thing I like about the Ford Relay setup in my car is "That Look???" The one I get from people walking by when I go to start the car after it has cooled down and needs the GP's or at least the light comes on the dash. I just love it when they come by and I hit the ignition and I get that clunk and I can just about hear them thinking, Poor guy has a starter or battery problem. Then when I roll it over about 10 seconds later I get it. That look that says "is that a diesel?" Man I would love to have that car it is sooo nice.
But its mine and I just fooled you good. Pardon my clack.
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Pardon my clack.
]
;)
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I did mine up with the outside the passenger compartment heavy loaded relay. Just wasn't right in my mind that sort of juice be inside then run back out. I wonder if the increased length on the OEM setup would be measurable with a clamp on meter at the GPs?
I hate crawling up under the dash for electrical problems. My neck no longer has that sort of flexibility.
I don't understand the question. If there is current flowing through the wire, the clamp on ammeter will measure it.
There is a fuse in the engine compartment that protects the glow plug relay and associated wiring into the passenger compartment, where it is protected from the elements, that's why the stock system is pretty much trouble free. I had a Ford relay like yours (in a non VW diesel)- that thing was a piece of junk. It corroded badly internally from being in the engine compartment and after a few years stopped making good contact even though it still "clunked".
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I don't understand why people, especially those in warm climates, add 4 fuses and another relay, when the OE glow relay is perfectly adequate.
If you want to make it easy to find which glow plug is burned out, replace the bus bar with 4 individual wires, tied to the feed from the glow plug relay. If you have a clamp on dc ammeter, you don't even need to break the 4 wire tie point to find the bad glow plug.
This is an 82 Vanagon and the wires have a longer run for the high amps. When I'm done, it will be no more than 2 feet or so.
Besides that, I'll have everything handy right in the engine bay. Both the ignition switch and the GP relay are notorious for failure as they were just barely capable of getting the job done. What I'm doing is taking the load off of them and putting it onto a relay(s) that can be found in any FLAPS - probably anywhere in the world.
Adding the GP wiring and fuses is simply an extension of what I was doing anyway. I am adding a WAIC pump and additional radiator with fan, plus an oil cooler rad with fan as well. Doing all that without simply adding separate fuses to the GP's (at the same time) would have been "hard to understand".
As to setting it up for Southern California, I'm building it for travel when I retire (yeah, I'm getin' old). Heck, I've even put a block heater in it ;).
The little lady and I hope to wake up in it at about 8,000 feet somewhere in the rockies, cook up some bacon and eggs, a few slices of fried toast and then hit the trail. Could be a long walk out if I set it up for "warm climates".
I am not familiar with a stock Vanagon diesel's glow plug system. Is the glow plug relay under the dash with its rear engine? I hope not.
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I don't understand the question. If there is current flowing through the wire, the clamp on ammeter will measure it.
There is a fuse in the engine compartment that protects the glow plug relay and associated wiring into the passenger compartment, where it is protected from the elements, that's why the stock system is pretty much trouble free. I had a Ford relay like yours (in a non VW diesel)- that thing was a piece of junk. It corroded badly internally from being in the engine compartment and after a few years stopped making good contact even though it still "clunked".
I was wondering if the difference in the length of the stock wire compared to our modified short wire systems would show a difference in the current or voltage to the GPs. More resistance less voltage and current correct?
Doesn't the fuse in the engine compartment come after the relay and all the internals? Mine used to go from the fuse to the bus bar. So the relay would have come on regardless if the fuse was blown.
Notice Ford always put the relay high on the fenderwell? That wasn't just so we could get to it easy with a screwdriver and short it out you know. How many of us did that number rather than bump the key?
The upper deck spot kept it out of the elements. Most solenoids are not weather sealed so IF you had it down under I would have expected it to cause you trouble. Mine is up higher on the fender. Shorter run to both the battery and the GPs.
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More resistance less voltage and current correct?
Very true.
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More resistance less voltage and current correct?
Very true.
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Shorter wire = less resistance, higher voltage, higher current = more power to the glow plugs which burns them out faster. More power to the glow plugs is not like more power to the engine with mods. Engine mods are fun. More power to the glow plugs don't give you more fun or better starts, it means you have to replace your glow plugs sooner.
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More resistance less voltage and current correct?
Very true.
x2
Shorter wire = less resistance, higher voltage, higher current = more power to the glow plugs which burns them out faster. More power to the glow plugs is not like more power to the engine with mods. Engine mods are fun. More power to the glow plugs don't give you more fun or better starts, it means you have to replace your glow plugs sooner.
There is a window. If you feed them way too much yes, but if it is in range it will be fine and not burn them out any sooner. The stock system is probably in the low end of the voltage and that is why it doesn't hurt them to have more. That and Duratherms are self regulating so those would completely throw out your theory as they would just shut down when they reach temp.
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92EDJ Says: Engine mods are fun. More power to the glow plugs don't give you more fun or better starts, it means you have to replace
your glow plugs sooner.
I say in order to enjoy your engine mod you need to be able to start it and that requires a better start. Modifying the GP system makes that happen. Unless you live is some really warm climate like AZ or NM and are not in the higher elevations.
I am with TheMan. Buy decent GP's in the first place and you can heat them up to where they should be glowing red hot and not have to worry about them burning up.
Living here where it is generally 40 or 50 when I need to start the car always takes the GPs. Or at least the relay always goes clunk when I hit the key.
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I am not familiar with a stock Vanagon diesel's glow plug system. Is the glow plug relay under the dash with its rear engine? I hope not.
No, it's all in the bay and the stock wiring was probably fine when it was new (1.6 NA). My comment about the "long run" was wrong, there's no heavy amps going the 20'+ back to the GP's.
However, the circuit has been fried at least once real good (no idea why) and so I'm re-doing most of it inside the engine bay, plus adding some additional stuff to the overall load. I just figured I'd make it tidy and over-do things a bit for a margin of safety. For example, the headlight light switch wiring was probably fine as well. I still added two relays (one for the high beams and another for the low beams). From what I've read, the stock switch just barely handles the load (seen pictures of melted ones) so why take the chance if I'm already into it? Relays are cheap.
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I am not familiar with a stock Vanagon diesel's glow plug system. Is the glow plug relay under the dash with its rear engine? I hope not.
No, it's all in the bay and the stock wiring was probably fine when it was new (1.6 NA). My comment about the "long run" was wrong, there's no heavy amps going the 20'+ back to the GP's.
However, the circuit has been fried at least once real good (no idea why) and so I'm re-doing most of it inside the engine bay, plus adding some additional stuff to the overall load. I just figured I'd make it tidy and over-do things a bit for a margin of safety. For example, the headlight light switch wiring was probably fine as well. I still added two relays (one for the high beams and another for the low beams). From what I've read, the stock switch just barely handles the load (seen pictures of melted ones) so why take the chance if I'm already into it? Relays are cheap.
Sounds like you are doing the right thing with the fried wires and all.
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92EDJ Says: Engine mods are fun. More power to the glow plugs don't give you more fun or better starts, it means you have to replace
your glow plugs sooner.
I say in order to enjoy your engine mod you need to be able to start it and that requires a better start. Modifying the GP system makes that happen. Unless you live is some really warm climate like AZ or NM and are not in the higher elevations.
I am with TheMan. Buy decent GP's in the first place and you can heat them up to where they should be glowing red hot and not have to worry about them burning up.
Living here where it is generally 40 or 50 when I need to start the car always takes the GPs. Or at least the relay always goes clunk when I hit the key.
If you are having trouble starting at 40 or 50F with a stock glow plug system and think that by modifying it will give you better starts you are putting your efforts in the wrong place. You should be checking the compression, starter motor health (RPM) instead. Winters gets down to 10 to 20F's around here and I give my manually controlled glow plugs (stock relay in stock fuse relay panel) about 6 seconds and it fires right up within the first crank with no smoke. I installed a block heater 2 years ago and never plugged it in once because the engine starts so well in the winter.
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The headlight relays...oh man...I can recommend that 100x over the glow plug relays! I can hardly stress enough how much greater it makes them perform! I suppose it won't make driving any more fun though. You will just have to buy new bulbs sooner ;)
One point, is that you COULD still use the stock single fuse on the firewall, and just have a little octopus harness branching off into 4 different wires, 1 per plug. You could use an ampmeter to check current and see which, if any glowplugs were dead. Yet, still, if you pop that main fuse, you lose them all. This does seem like a fair and simple upgrade, strictly for the purpose of diagnosis, while maintaining use of the stock system. However, 4 times the wire, 4 times the resistance, 4 times the strain on the stock setup.
It has been proven that the stock relay system will start the car in cold cold weather. With the enhanced adaptation (or downgrade, if you prefer), I feel beyond confident that I won't run into a cold start problem in a snow storm...unless I have things shorting out under the hood from being grounded by the elements. Do I want to replace glow plugs more often? Oh HELL no!!! Would replacing burnt out glowplugs from overvoltage in the middle of a snow storm be harder than changing a fuse in the stock system? Absolutely. Am I worried? Nah.
If anything, (for some of us control freaks) perhaps adding a switch to manual override switch in place of the stock relay would be a more appropriate mod to add to the list (in conjunction with the HD mod). Perhaps a plug-n-play unit that fits directly into the stock relay spot, and has a certain length of wire coming out of it to mount a remote on-off or toggle switch. I know not everyone is interested in manually controlling such a function, but this would give you the chance to revert to the timed relay, if desired, without molesting the stock harness. Fully reversible (minus whatever hole you would drill to mount the switch).
If there is worry of burning up the glowplugs from overvoltage, this would seem appropriate.
The timed application...car starts...glow plugs still glowing...hotter and hotter and hotter (even though the car has already started and their purpose is fulfilled) *CLACK* timer shuts off after x-amount of unnecessary seconds.
or
Flip switch...car starts...flip switch...no exceeded wear and tear.
I feel increase voltage to the plugs getting them hotter faster is an upgrade...yet I can agree with the statement that overvoltage for a prolonged period of time is, comparatively, unnecessary wear and tear.
I really like this discussion though! I am highly interested in seeing the layout of a stock van glow setup as well! I have never seen a diesel van in the flesh :(
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I believe in the stock 82 vanagon there is a temp sensor (water or oil) connected to the GP circuit. If the sensor is "open" (hot), the GP's don't come on. This is probably true for all diesels unless someone has messed with it ;)
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Ahhhh yes. So true. Look at me....trying to sound smart before coffee hahaha. I put on a pretty good front, if you ask me :P
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One point, is that you COULD still use the stock single fuse on the firewall, and just have a little octopus harness branching off into 4 different wires, 1 per plug. You could use an ampmeter to check current and see which, if any glowplugs were dead.... However, 4 times the wire, 4 times the resistance, 4 times the strain on the stock setup.
Last time I checked, four wires in parallel had 1/4 the resistance of a single wire.
Coffee good... ;)
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HAHAHA this is true...but I think I was still accurate on that part...
Even with a single wire/ribbon, the stock setup is still in parallel. With individual wires, you are multiplying the resistance of wire. 2 feet of 8 gauge wire has less resistance than 8 feet of 10 gauge wire :) Not to mention whatever kind of resistance would form at the connection of 4 pieces of wire twisted into one lol.
Thank you for keeping me in check though! I am no engineer, I just play one on the interwebs. ;D
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*drumroll* Coffee, don't let me down on this one! I am caffeinated as all hell right now, so I would have no excuses other than miseducation and flawed thought process!
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IN my Fiat GP start ~ 12 A,then go down to 8-9 A.
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You guys have WAY too much time on your hands. The GPs are not going to fail early because they get a full 12v. Your car is not going to burn up because of bad GP wiring unless you have LOTS of other problems. Thees cars start just fine down to 0*F, if you have a good motor with a good battery and starter. Kid F$#king the GP circuit is not going to make it start better. GP life with the stock system has never been a problem. It does appear that GP life IS a problem with manual systems. Checking/changing GPs on an IDI VW has never been a big deal unless, of course, you don't have the skills and/or tools to do the work. There is a message there......
That being said, taking the load off the stock wiring with a Ford starter solenoid is simple, clean, and easy. On an AAZ for instance you can get one to bolt to the water outlet by just elongating one hole. You don't even have to cut one wire to do it.
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2 feet of 8 gauge wire has less resistance than 8 feet of 10 gauge wire ...
If the eight feet of AWG10 are 4 pieces, at 2' in parallel. It's less than half of the resistance of the AWG8.
(The stock system is not parallel, it is one line with a 40A load.)
So which would anyone prefer...
One piece of AWG8 carrying 40A? ---- or ---- Four pieces of AWG10, each carrying 10A?
(I'll take the four @ AWG10. )
GPs never all die at once, individual lines let you easily determine which one is bad.
Compared to individual lines, the stock buss-bar is a PITA to isolate the bad GP from the good, or to replace any GP except #4.
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I once had a manual system fail on me, where the starter solenoid I had used failed in the "glow" position. Leaving my glow plugs on for my 35 minute drive, and subsequent 20+ minutes afterwords that it took to drain my battery completely flat.
This was 3 years ago, and those glow-plugs are still in a daily driven diesel to this date.. They would have at the time been getting 14v for 35 minutes and then the full battery voltage after I shut it off. Roughly an hour of straight glowing.
Duraterm FTMFW.
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Yes, Toby. I, for one, certainly have too much time on my hands...but that is neither here nor there ;) I suppose it is better spent on the forum than the slums and brothels of the internet!
I can't argue for a single second that the stock system is a bad design. Form follows function, and the engineers did a damn fine job. Cannibalizing the stock glow plug system will not help a car with a weak battery, low compression, and a weak starter/voltage drop to the starter. It would hardly constitute as a bandaid! It is more of a placebo when it comes to someone having sub-par standings with the aforementioned starting criteria ;)
I have a freshly rebuilt engine, a new starter, a new battery, I live in a tropical @$$ corner of the world...doing the glow setup that I did is certainly like shooting blow-flies with a 12 gauge. I just wanted to :) After seeing the "pimp your glowplug" article years ago, I felt like I came up with a cleaner and sturdier alternative. Even though...it doesn't look any cleaner than the stock setup! There is even more visible crap in the engine bay, extra parts and ultimately, more chance for failure.
Tyler, although the buss-bar works...I am with you all the way. I have the skills/tools to repair or diagnose it either way, I am just sticking with individual wires for personal preference.
However, the stock system IS in parallel, just an optical illusion. They all share the same positive, they all share the same ground. They LOOK like they are in series because they are all in a row, but remember, series would be wired from positive to negative. Here is a picture example with speakers...
(http://www.crownaudio.com/media/storagebk/images/four_4ohm.jpg)
Layout wise, looks pretty similar to our stock glowplug setup, huh?
I can assure you, these speakers are wired in parallel :)
It's funny, this thread seems strangely similar to a K&N discussion haha. Jeremy! What is your stance on glowplugs! lol
Like I said, I did this just to have fun and make it my own. This didn't earn me an honorary seat as a chief VW engineer, for making "improvements" to the previous design haha.
Just like running a K&N, it is a matter of preference and I think these little cars, if maintained, will keep on puttin either way!
Cheers guys :D
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of course you post as I am writing about you! lol
That WAS one thing I was curios about! Having one of these solenoids fail and get stuck on! The first drive after I finished adding my little fusebox and all that, I started overheating on the freeway and didn't understand why! Somehow my car had gotten to boiling and pushing water past the cap....and it made me wonder if my plugs got stuck on. Freeway speed air should keep me plenty cool...
I filled my car back up and it was fine after that(although inspiring me to change my coolant and upper hose setup), but it was another variable that occurred to me...and I am happy you mentioned this. Unless you hear the CLACK, you can't be sure that your glow plugs stopped getting power! Thank you for reminding me...because I was interested in figuring a wiring solution to having the LED get it's signal POST hd relay! Just more proof that modifying the glow system increases the chance for potential problems!
(still not converting back 8) )
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I am against what Toby said, this does in FACT help starting over a stock system.
The stock system keeps the plugs pulling 40-50A after the light has gone off and while you are cranking the starter. That 50A is 50A that could be better spent in cranking the starter over and not firing the plugs that are still red hot after glowing for 10 seconds.
When my car was IDI and I needed plugs, I would burn for like 3-5 seconds for almost any weather and then turn them off and engage the starter. When it was super cold, and I burned the plugs while I was cranking (this helped tons on super cold days) it could be heard that the starter was significantly slower spinning with the plugs on as opposed to off.
Another thing I like about the toggle switch manual setup I had was that I could After-Burn the plugs for as long as I wanted. Like until the smoke cleared, the engine idle steadied, or I was happy with its running status. The AAZ's stock system (which used duraterms from day 1) has an after-burn feature of up to three minutes after the key has been let go of the "start" position.
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If anything, (for some of us control freaks) perhaps adding a switch to manual override switch in place of the stock relay would be a more appropriate mod to add to the list (in conjunction with the HD mod). Perhaps a plug-n-play unit that fits directly into the stock relay spot, and has a certain length of wire coming out of it to mount a remote on-off or tog 8)gle switch. I know not everyone is interested in manually controlling such a function, but this would give you the chance to revert to the timed relay, if desired, without molesting the stock harness. Fully reversible (minus whatever hole you would drill to mount the switch).
That's what I did, took the stock VW relay (very robust and well made relay BTW, much better than the Ford starter junk solenoid) and added wires to it to a push button switch so that it is manually controlled. I also added a piezo buzzer that sounds when the glow plugs are on which alerts you in case of the relay hanging and applying constant power to the glow plugs (very small chance of that happening). On top of that, I added a mechanical push button on the relay to manually close the contacts if the relay coil fails. On top of that, I carry a heavy duty jumper cable to manually jump the glow plugs in case all of the above fails. 8) I think I have all the bases covered.
Oh, I also got rid of the 8 mm nuts on the glow plugs and replaced them with quick disconnects. Imagine changing glow plugs in the middle of winter and dropping those nuts into the snow with no replacements? You're screwed! This won't happen with quick disconnects plus you can get the wires on/off in seconds.
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Great discussion guys. And Civil no less. We sure this is the VW GTD forum?
Love the thoughts from 92EDJ. I think they go in the box labelled OVERKILL/well thought out for doomsday.
I am with the thought that if GPs on and starter turning the battery is really having to deliver there. Cutting off the GPs then hitting the starter can be heard on a cold day. I don't think it is just the cold doing it either.
Four wires, 10 amps that if the way I look at it. Some have asked me why the spark plug wires are so small in my car. Some day I will explain it to you.
Something about a 40 amp fuse just makes me shudder about that load inside the car but then I don't have a honking amp in the back either.
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I once had a manual system fail on me, where the starter solenoid I had used failed in the "glow" position. Leaving my glow plugs on for my 35 minute drive, and subsequent 20+ minutes afterwords that it took to drain my battery completely flat.
This was 3 years ago, and those glow-plugs are still in a daily driven diesel to this date.. They would have at the time been getting 14v for 35 minutes and then the full battery voltage after I shut it off. Roughly an hour of straight glowing.
Duraterm FTMFW.
That's because the Ford starter solenoid is a bad design. I've had one hang also. If you take one of them apart, you will see the solenoid pushes a copper shorting bar onto 2 studs, shorting them out. That bar can hang with the onset of corrosion.
Duraterm glow plugs have 2 coils to limit current once it heats up. They typically draw 20 amps at cold start surge then slowly drop to around 9 amps and that keeps them from burning out if left on extended periods. IMO, it is the initial surge that kills them if the voltage to them is higher than designed. If you look at the glow plug specs, there is a voltage rating to them. I think the Duraterms are 11 Volts. If you run very short length and very heavy gauge wires to the glow plugs, you can get them to run at higher voltage than designed (governed by the gauge and length of the stock wiring) and shorten their life. I have no proof of all this, just using logic and common sense.
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I am against what Toby said, this does in FACT help starting over a stock system.
The stock system keeps the plugs pulling 40-50A after the light has gone off and while you are cranking the starter. That 50A is 50A that could be better spent in cranking the starter over and not firing the plugs that are still red hot after glowing for 10 seconds.
When my car was IDI and I needed plugs, I would burn for like 3-5 seconds for almost any weather and then turn them off and engage the starter. When it was super cold, and I burned the plugs while I was cranking (this helped tons on super cold days) it could be heard that the starter was significantly slower spinning with the plugs on as opposed to off.
Another thing I like about the toggle switch manual setup I had was that I could After-Burn the plugs for as long as I wanted. Like until the smoke cleared, the engine idle steadied, or I was happy with its running status. The AAZ's stock system (which used duraterms from day 1) has an after-burn feature of up to three minutes after the key has been let go of the "start" position.
I always manually glow the plugs then remove power to the plugs when I crank so the starter will get full power and spin at the highest RPM instead of being dragged down by the glow plugs. Once the engine fires, I can always turn the glow plugs back on if I want. So far, I've never needed to do that.
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It was not a ford solenoid, it was generic high amperage relay/solenoid. Different design. I've had OEM relay's stick on before too.
I have proof (from my own first hand experience) that higher voltage to the Duraterm plugs (which are 4 years old now) does not shorten their life any. They each had about a 24" total run of power, battery to starter lug, starter lug to solenoid, solenoid to fuse block and then to plugs. Literally zero voltage drop, they got full 12.30-12.61V of battery voltage.
I always manually glow the plugs then remove power to the plugs when I crank so the starter will get full power and spin at the highest RPM instead of being dragged down by the glow plugs. Once the engine fires, I can always turn the glow plugs back on if I want. So far, I've never needed to do that.
What is your ambient winter temperature though... lol
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I always manually glow the plugs then remove power to the plugs when I crank so the starter will get full power and spin at the highest RPM instead of being dragged down by the glow plugs. Once the engine fires, I can always turn the glow plugs back on if I want. So far, I've never needed to do that.
What is your ambient winter temperature though... lol
20 F sometimes single digit, rarely below 0 F.
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Well, come on up and see how yours starts at -20 F ;)
Last winter, we had a huge drop for a few days where the ambient was -40C/F (they cross over at this temperature). Not even the gas engines started, it was brutal.
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I'm amazed at how long this thread has kept going.
My initial attempt was simply to do what Vince Waldon suggested in a post on his site (and also here in the FAQ).
The question was if I could use two 40 amp relays (splitting to two GP's each) instead if one bigger one. The reason being is that I have four in a nice fuse box and I am only using two for the WAIC and oil cooler wiring.
Anyway, the original question has basically been answered with a yes.
As for starting, I'll stick with the stock system.
Turn key to on, yellow light comes on.
When it goes out, start. Has always worked for me, even if I'm camping in a cold climate area (I haven't tried it yet at -20 though ;D) .
If I take a quick run to the store, it won't turn on again for the second start.
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Hmm, I have 2-4 extra of every part of the factory glow system, because no part of it has needed replacement while I continue to cannibalize cars for other parts. Still, for those time I want glow, but the stock system doesn't want to, I have a 6" #10 wire...Short across the stock relay terms, and rejoice in your glow!
Aside from that, I really do prefer the MBZ glow harness connector, mainly from a diagnostics standpoint.
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One of the joys of VW ownership is the water leak that fills the GP relay...
Sometimes they fail to glow,
Sometimes they fail to shut off.
In the latter, the non-Duraterm GPs burn out.
A "truth light" LED added to the dash to indicate voltage at the GPs is cheap, simple verification that power is there when it's supposed to be.
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There was a guy on one of the truck forums curious about the Duraterms, so he hooked up a power supply, and left it running 36 continuous hours.
Eventually turned it off because he had to leave the house unattended.
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Geeze - now I gotta run four wires to my dash and install four LEDs?
I gotta stop reading this site till I'm done. All I was going to do was rebuild my AAZ - I'm looking at over a year now.
I already have the wire and the LED's, oh what the he// ;D ;D
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Watching for the dome light to undim not good enough?
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Gizmoman. I think you need to wire up a bunch of LEDs from Red to Green with a bunch of yellows inbetween Four rows of them on the dash like a total panel, 24 or so. The red come on at key turn when the glows come on. Then instal a timer down until finally all the yellows are done and just before the relay clacks back to open the green light comes on signaling all is well and by then the engine is running.
Can ya work on that?
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That's because the Ford starter solenoid is a bad design. I've had one hang also. If you take one of them apart, you will see the solenoid pushes a copper shorting bar onto 2 studs, shorting them out. That bar can hang with the onset of corrosion.
The Ford starter solenoid is a VERY good design and extremely reliable. How often do you hear of a Ford starter solenoid sticking on a Ford. HINT: Never or nearly so. They are not constant duty relays however, and IF you hold it on for 30 minutes they will fail. They do however make constant duty verzions of the same solenoid.
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Gizmoman. I think you need to wire up a bunch of LEDs from Red to Green with a bunch of yellows inbetween Four rows of them on the dash like a total panel, 24 or so. The red come on at key turn when the glows come on. Then instal a timer down until finally all the yellows are done and just before the relay clacks back to open the green light comes on signaling all is well and by then the engine is running.
Can ya work on that?
That's funny but I think I'll pass. As I recall, it was getting hard to start before it went South. When I took off the head, I found #3 was all busted and crumbled. Had I known (via LED's) , it wouldn't have been a show stopper.
OTOH, the gauges/sensors I am adding will tell me a lot about what's going on when It's running:
1. EGT (very fast)
2. Oil temp
3. Air temp (post WAIC)
4. Coolant temp
5. Oil pressure
6. Boost (changed to digital)
Had I had them when I left on our camping trip, I would have backed off on the throttle a bit while climbing that long grade out of Riverside on a hot summer day. These things are slow and I need to get into a different "groove". Hopefully the mods (WAIC & Giles IP) will give me some peace of mind and a few more horses to boot ;D
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Gizmoman. I think you need to wire up a bunch of LEDs from Red to Green with a bunch of yellows inbetween Four rows of them on the dash like a total panel, 24 or so. The red come on at key turn when the glows come on. Then instal a timer down until finally all the yellows are done and just before the relay clacks back to open the green light comes on signaling all is well and by then the engine is running.
MOAR!
(http://www.offshootinc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/2001screengrab560pixels1.jpg)
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HAHAHAHA I almost just caffienated my nostrils when I saw that picture!!!
Gizmoman! I feel exactly the same about my trip up the grapevine! I shutter when I think about what I must have done to this poor engine when I was forcing it up the hill!!! Oh lord....
I want my car to be like the Mach 5 with all the extra gauges, switches and gadgets!
If I want to be an efficient therapist, I need my car to tell me how it really feels :)
I do think a truth light would be a simple modification...I just gotta look at a diagram and figure out which wire to snip and extend to the switched side of the HD relay. Gizmo, 4 LED's wouldn't be necessary but if you DID run multiple relays like you were saying, you would need to tap into the switched side of both relays. A single LED wouldn't show you WHICH relay was stuck on, but if either was stuck in the first place, you would need to break out real tools to diagnose it anyways!