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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on June 09, 2013, 11:03:20 am
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I am working on a catch-can/hockey puck replacement for my 1.9 AAZ and am curious about what angle the engine "normally" sat at in a standard application - a Jetta or Passat for example.
Also, if anyone knows the history of how the 50 degree application came about, that would be nice to know as well.
I'm guessing that the 1.6 was the stock vanagon diesel engine and the odd pan fits the 1.9 block. Were there any 1.9 vanagons sold by VW - possibly in Europe or Canada?
Any info appreciated.
Thanks,
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Oh well,
Dumb question I guess.
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The stock Jetta Golf stuff is 15* isn't it??
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Thanks 8V, that helps
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1.6N/A was the first 50° motor. When they offered the 1.6TD in Europe, North America got a 1.7N/A that was only used in Vanagons.
1.9N/A or TD weren't offered in Vanagons, but T4's got them.
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1.6N/A was the first 50° motor. When they offered the 1.6TD in Europe, North America got a 1.7N/A that was only used in Vanagons.
1.9N/A or TD weren't offered in Vanagons, but T4's got them.
Thanks James.
I am wondering if there were any changes made to the block/valve cover vent plumbing or "hockey puck" in the T4.
I am removing the stock hockey puck as it interferes a bit with my inter-cooler and I also don't want the blow-by gasses going back into my turbo intake. The system may have worked well at 15 but at 50 (in the T4) they (VW) may have changed something.
I'll do some searches on a T4 and see if I can find any info.
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Hmmm - I don't think the T4 had the 1.9 TD engine at 50 - least not as far as I can tell in the photos I can find.
It's rather simple I guess, just make a catch can and hose the valve cover and block vents into it (removing the hockey puck). Vent the air through some sort of filter and drain the condensed oil back into the block.
I've already done a bunch of "catch-can" reading - just a bit worried about deleting the hockey-puck completely. I believe it's only there to vent the block back to the intake. It would close should there be vacuum issue (possibly a plugged air filter).
I'm not going to the intake and will vent to the atmosphere.
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The puck is also a centrifugal oil separator. For vanagon installs, I have used the 1.6 pucks above the block port and then installed a tee under the single entry port to go up to the valve cover. That way the puck is level and drains easily into the block. The puck also theoretically closes if the block becomes pressure difference between block and intake becomes significant and so it theoretically prevents runaway. I would not recommend running without the puck.
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Thanks libby, I was hoping you'd chime in ;)
I can't quite figure out how the puck would close off as I can't get it to respond to blowing or sucking on it - mmm - tasty;D
There is a light spring inside and a sort of baffle disc - it must take quite a differential to get it to close.
Any idea where I might find a 1.6 puck and do you have any photos of the setup you're describing?
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Jim Ellis wants 80+ for one :(
I've put a WTB post in the proper section but I'm still not sure I need one.
I am curious as to your opinion on what it actually does (I've read several but am not quite convinced).
If I vent "clean air" to atmosphere, the pressure will always be positive from the engine. What I'm trying to do is keep crud out of my laminova fins in the WAIC.
I suppose I could add a port to the intake on the post laminova core side but I'd rather not.
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take a look at the specifications for the Mann + Hummel "Provent 200"...it's got ~.75" I.D. fittings at the inlet and outlet so there should be very little resistance to back pressure, taking into account the intake vacuum. I'd plumb it so the cleaned fumes are routed back to the intake post-aircleaner & pre-turbo, and catch the crud (it has water in it) to drain overboard periodically. Your AWIC/intake deserves it.
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take a look at the specifications for the Mann + Hummel "Provent 200"...it's got ~.75" I.D. fittings at the inlet and outlet so there should be very little resistance to back pressure, taking into account the intake vacuum. I'd plumb it so the cleaned fumes are routed back to the intake post-aircleaner & pre-turbo, and catch the crud (it has water in it) to drain overboard periodically. Your AWIC/intake deserves it.
Wow - nice unit and I like the large ports. We're on the same page regarding sending the stuff into the intake. It took hours to clean inside the manifold and I only really got it clean after I cut it in half to build the WAIC ;D
It is expensive though and it also requires the 30 dollar filters to be changed (don't know the intervals though). If I were to get it, I'd also need a #8 AN "T" with two males and one female swivel. Then I could tap into my turbo drain line at the pan. Summit wants 35 bucks for that fitting and I would need other fittings as well. I can see this thing getting into the 300 dollar range.
I really wish I know more about the crankcase vent concept.
I know the oil gets hot enough to boil water, and there is definitely water in there if just from condensation. So now you have steam with some oil/carbon trapped in it. Steam means pressure and it has to be relieved otherwise the seals would blow.
But the stock hockey puck has a valve that protects against something that "may" happen - what that is I'm not sure. The pro-vent seems to have a similar device as well - there is something to it, just wish I knew what it was.
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The "what" is a runaway due to the engine burning its own oil as fuel. The cam baffle and hockey puck are both there to prevent that from happening. A diesel doesn't much care if it is burning engine oil or diesel fuel, it'll rev as high as the volume of fuel it receives allows.
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The "what" is a runaway due to the engine burning its own oil as fuel. The cam baffle and hockey puck are both there to prevent that from happening. A diesel doesn't much care if it is burning engine oil or diesel fuel, it'll rev as high as the volume of fuel it receives allows.
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Agreed, but if I don't run back to the intake and vent to atmosphere, I don't see how it would receive the crankcase oil to run away. Possibly having the crankcase and the valve cover "connected" would do it though.
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If you don't run back to the intake it will not runaway from the crank vent. I don't care for the stink, mess and routine maintenance of a catch can, tho.
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"Prothe" carries the pucks cheap... Chinese, but functional. His basic stuff isn't too bad, just stay away from parts with tolerances.
I'm still embroiled in oil control issues myself. I bought the ProVent, now I have to re-do my supply and drain lines, I'm thinking AN fittings and braided SS flex lines now, with the Y-block to bring the provent line into the turbo line, below the oil level. I had a catch can being vented to the intake, but I experienced oil-fueling when the can filled up... more of a cruise-control situation than a runaway, but I learned pretty quick to check the can often. I was pushing out a LOT of oil due to new rings/hone, but it has slowed since the rings started to seat. I also neglected to clock my turbo... which resulted in oil out the tailpipe. Ugly job, disassembling a 30+ year-old turbo, but absolutely necessary for the van mounting. (Garret T2) Still in the middle of it.
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I agree - stinky and maintenance are not great attributes.
Any thoughts on running the purge air back to the intake before the air filter? I'm building my own air filter cannister (can't find a good price on one) and plan on piping the intake to the drivers side vent/column and slightly up a foot or so. I will run into issues initially as I get the rings seated as well so I'll leave the hose off till it all seats in.
The pro-vent is a nice unit but as I don't really need the runaway protection it provides, plus the filter changes required, I think I'll pass.
I have read that having a small amount of vacuum is helpful to keep the crankcase at a negative pressure. I've even considered a venturi into the exhaust, just after the turbo discharge.
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I bought the ProVent, now I have to re-do my supply and drain lines, I'm thinking AN fittings and braided SS flex lines now, with the Y-block to bring the provent line into the turbo line, below the oil level.
For lack of a check valve in the provent drain, Karl Mullendore recently had a runaway that ultimately wrecked an engine of his. You might want to contact him about details.
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I bought the ProVent, now I have to re-do my supply and drain lines, I'm thinking AN fittings and braided SS flex lines now, with the Y-block to bring the provent line into the turbo line, below the oil level.
For lack of a check valve in the provent drain, Karl Mullendore recently had a runaway that ultimately wrecked an engine of his. You might want to contact him about details.
This looks like a blow off valve on the side
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c4ZLF5wNQ_A/UbnM1iHe3bI/AAAAAAAAB1w/d7STYc7z-Y0/s522/provent%2520200.JPG)
And here's a quote from the list of features. . .
"Pressure vent in cap to prevent over-pressure in the crank case"
Possibly it was plumbed incorrectly?
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I'm sure Karl had it plumbed correctly. The check valve was an additional part that was not part of the provent itself but rather went in the drail line to prevent oil from being sucked up the drain and sent into the intake.
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He had it draining into the block bung... which is subject to crank pressure. Without the check valve, the oil was pushed up and out by the pressure. According to the (scant) info from the Provent literature online, if you drain to a point below the oil level (as in the turbo drain) you can avoid this issue.
A question is, was the oil in Karl's motor drawn out by the intake, or pushed out by block pressure?
My objection to the check valve scheme is that, yes, it prevents crank pressure entering the can, but it also prevents the can from draining back to the block, say, if you have a fresh rebuild with lots of blowby... defeating the purpose. I'd still end up with a full can, and have to shut the motor off periodically to drain it. Temporary problem, until the rings seat fully, but it's left me feeling the best solution is to tee into the turbo drain w/ no check.
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That still doesn't make sense to me. The entire oil sump/oil level is also under block pressure. I would think, if anything, a check valve would be even more important if the drain went under the oil level. Also, the oil would drain any time the level in the line was above the oil level in the sump, provided there wasn't a pressure differential pushing in back up, in which case you'd definitely need the check valve.
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It seems to me that there shouldn't be a lot of pressure in the block if everything is working properly (no hole in the piston). After doing some reading on crankcase pressure, there is always a bit squirting past the rings, but it shouldn't be enough to pump oil all the way back up a hose unless there were no vent to atmosphere.
If the line to atmosphere (or the intake) were somehow blocked, then you have an issue. It would seem that as long as that line is open and is a decent size, the pressure is removed and the issue is moot.
If the line that relieves the pressure is always above the oil level, then oil will not flow up it. However if that same line becomes blocked, the pressure has no choice but to push oil back up any other hose it can - that would be to a Provent or any other catch-can type device.
I think the simple trick is to insure a positive relief of pressure above the oil. As long as that is insured, I don't see why a check would be needed.
Does that make sense?
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I just ordered two of these from McMaster. One is a spare and the other will go on the vent line to atmosphere.
It's good for 100 microns so adding it to my intake might be acceptable.
I'll put it inside my chingus on the valve cover (photos to come soon).
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gaCI1DyLU7o/UbsW8Hvx7xI/AAAAAAAAB2I/85WieX7XSgc/s128/SINTERED%20FILTER.JPG)
I will need to inspect/clean it periodically but I figure every oil change will do.