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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: masterbeavis on May 01, 2013, 09:14:20 pm
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I know the old Chevy and International (Ford) diesels would make more power with a turbo and simply turning up the stock pump. Will a 1.6 NA theoretically run under the same concept? I susoebt that a turbo alone it won't make the same power as if the pump were added too, but it would be better than nothing right?
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Pretty much. The Eco-Diesel they sold was just that, no fuel enrichment dealy on the pump, and it had a cat.
Turbo with no more fuel will cut down on smoke. You can turn up the overall fueling on the NA pump some,
it'll just tend to smoke bad before boost comes on. It's been done, a lot.
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The strange thing is, several French cars have a 1.9TD which has a bosch pump and no enrichment and they are not slow!
I think it could depend on your choice of turbo also, but at the very least you will end up with more power and something that runs cleaner :)
I cant remember where, but on a similar thread I am sure someone said the NA pump actually has better low down power, maybe coupled with a turbo from a 1.9TD means turbo comes in at about 1900rpm full boost so it goes well. equally it has been said you can make an NA almost perform like a GTI.
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That is how my car currently is (NA-T) 81 MK1 w/ME jetta engine. When I first put the turbo system on there (no pump) it was noticeably quicker on acceleration. With stock fueling I could still run 9-10 lbs of boost even with the stock NA exhaust elbow and pipe. I have since turned the fuel a little and it will bring the boost on a lot faster now but my cruise EGT also went up.
Added: As far as smoke is concerned, there is some visible when flooring it until boost comes on, then a puff when shifting up high. Otherwise at cruise there are no visible particulates.
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The more turbo-oriented folks can correct me if need, but my understanding of the LDA on the turbo pumps is that it not so much adds fuel upon
sensing boost, as it removes fuel when boost is not present. As in, you can crank up a NA pump to produce nearly as much fuel as a stock turbo pump,
but it will be overfueling considerably at off or low boost times. Which makes lots of smoke, high EGT's, etc, etc.
Diesels like turbo's, they are almost never a negative.
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NA and ECO pumps are 8mm while true TD pumps have 9mm piston so there is less fuel available in 'em.
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My NA and TD pumps are all 9mm plunger. e.g. 460 494 XXXX
The only 8mm pump I have is an ECO... The ECO camplate has a 2.55mm lift, so it can deliver about the same amount of fuel, at higher pressure.
9mm pump: (3.14 * 4.52) * 2.19 = 1.3925115 cm3
ECO pump: (3.14 * 4.02) * 2.55 = 1.28112 cm3
That's about an 8% difference in pump output at max fuelling (which you can do, if you like to make clouds of soot).
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I'd like to hear more about the relationship between cam plate lift/angle and it's effect and interplay with injector pop pressure and nozzle angle if anyone is in the mood to.
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My NA and TD pumps are all 9mm plunger. e.g. 460 494 XXXX
The only 8mm pump I have is an ECO... The ECO camplate has a 2.55mm lift, so it can deliver about the same amount of fuel, at higher pressure.
9mm pump: (3.14 * 4.52) * 2.19 = 1.3925115 cm3
ECO pump: (3.14 * 4.02) * 2.55 = 1.28112 cm3
That's about an 8% difference in pump output at max fuelling (which you can do, if you like to make clouds of soot).
Total fuel volume is just one part of it - the larger plunger can deliver the same volume of fuel in a shorter amount of time as it takes less of the total plunger stroke to get the job done. A lot of the challenge is getting the fuel injected fast enough.
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Might be why they made the ECO camplate peak a few degrees earlier than the TD.
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Do why the smaller plunger on the eco?
Some pollution voodoo?
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From what I gather, pretty much. The Eco wasn't economical, it was ecological in the EPA's eyes. They did a bunch to tone down emmisions so they could keep selling the 1.6 in the USA.
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Any info about the 1Y or the AAZ camplate floating around?
I would imagine the AAZ piece is different with the two stage injectors, but
I'm curious what a late NA IDI (1Y) had compared to a 1.6.
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Any info about the 1Y or the AAZ camplate floating around?
I would imagine the AAZ piece is different with the two stage injectors, but
I'm curious what a late NA IDI (1Y) had compared to a 1.6.
its been said that the AAZ/TDI camplate has 4mm of lift..
the 1.6 plate supposedly has 2.3mm of lift..
i think jeremy might have had some actual hard numbers on the subject as well..
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I have measured many AAZ pumps at 3.13-3.15mm of lift, and the 1.6 NA and TD at 2.26-2.30mm of cam lobe lift.
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So, cam lift = more fuel per injection event, and I assume cam ramp angle and duration effect.. Something.
And plunger size increase enables lower cam lift. And that's probably dramatically simplified.
How are the AAZ cam plates different for the dual stage injectors?
Any guess on cam lift for a NA single staged injector 1.9?
Whats the diff between cranking the smoke screw and increasing injector shot via cam lift?
I assume injection duration is a thing here.
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I spoke to a guy a few years back who had at some point in the eighties swapped in diesel to a scirocco and added an aftermarket turbo ran a small amount of boost and saw some serious mileage gains
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Diesel Rocco is my other long term goal. :-) Seen a few.
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I am consistently getting 48-52mpg from the turbocharged '83 1.6 engine with a solid lifter head and NA IP in my '92 MKII Jetta. The engine is from a NA MK1 Rabbit.
After the timing belt broke in my '92 ECO diesel due to a seized tension pulley I decided to swap in the '83 motor instead of rebuilding the ECO engine.
I just swapped over the intake manifold, turbo and exhaust manifold, valve cover, oil filter mount with oil cooler and oil lines to the turbo, oil pan and pickup tube, clutch and flywheel (the clutch from the Rabbit had a broken spring), engine mounts (cut off the MKI passenger side mount), water pump (the MKI pump had a leak), alternator, and a couple of sensors due to different wiring harness plugs from the MKII ECO to the MKI NA motor.
I left the MKI NA injection pump, injectors and glow plugs in place. The only new parts I used were a new timing belt, tensioner pulley, oil pan and valve cover gaskets, plus new oil and filters.
I have over 15,000 miles on the car since the swap. The only problem I had since the swap was with the alternator belt and I solved that by going to a single belt system for the alt. & water pump (power steering and AC have been removed).
It feels like it has more power than the ECO engine plus it gets about five MPG more than ECO engine did.
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I have said repeatedly that all the changes made to produce the ECO were for emissions (ecology) and NOT economy. You should update your exhaust to be larger than the ECO version and eliminate the cat or make sure your max fuel is in the 'no smoke' zone.
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Cat and resonator are gone, but the exhaust is still the stock diameter. The only time I ever notice any smoke is at high RPM in 2nd or 3rd gear under load. It is just a little light haze in the mirror. All other times I don't notice any smoke.
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I have a 1.6td block, solid lifter head on my 79 rabbit that I have been driving the past few months. It already had a straight through exhaust that is a tad bigger than the stock pipes and is using mk2 downpipe with t3 turbo.
I have a pump that I believe to be close to stock settings, the fuel collar was still on, etc. It was a pump I broke down cleaned and resealed from a junkyard engine.
I think I have the lda stuff set stock as well. The car definately seems to pull better vs. the 85 jetta td I was introduced to a few years ago.
The only thing that makes me wonder is the egt's people mention. I am using an auber gage setup currently and have been watching what the car does on hills in 4th gear pinned.
Just today while running a steady hill for a couple miles the egt's hit a high that I have seen of 1350. The coolant temp gage went from the typical 190 up to 210+ where it would normally have the fan cycle to bring temps down if say sitting at idle for a while. But during this run the fan kicking on just kind of kept the gage from going higher, wasn't able to bring the temps down like normal.
My car never smokes and I have a mk2 air filter on it with the inlet sticking through a hole I cut through the fender.
I wonder if there is something wrong with my setup and now I also wonder about slapping the turbo kit onto my other na healthy motor that is going into my truck. I guess I will test that setup for sure with egt gage. I only planned on using that motor in the truck until I rebuilt a native td motor.