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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: GTFORZA on April 08, 2013, 11:15:35 am
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Locking at the kit from ecs. http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_I--Diesel/Engine/Cooling/Oil_Cooler/ES1892558/ (http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_I--Diesel/Engine/Cooling/Oil_Cooler/ES1892558/) does anyone know if this would replace the factory oil cooler on my 84 1.6 cy turbo diesel or does it go in the place of the filter and the filter goes on the bottom of it. I would prefer to separate the oil cooling and the coolant system for prevention of the factory oil cooler causing contamination. I have some other upgrades planned that would put more stress on the motor. I've already figured out an air to water intercooler setup, made a twin fan shroud for use with twin low-pro fans. Just wanting some insight. Any info would be great.
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Would I need something like this guy. http://www.mishimoto.com/stainless-steel-sandwich-plate-adapter-m20.html (http://www.mishimoto.com/stainless-steel-sandwich-plate-adapter-m20.html)
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For some reason I think the oil filter is a standard size. Like 3/4-16
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You can use a Volvo sandwich plate, and an oil cooler from a bigger vehicle to accomplish the same thing for less than half the cost.
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It looks like the sandwich plate and threaded shaft is included, but... $200!!?!?!?!!
You can get the sandwich plate + oil cooler + some high pressure hose and fittings for less than half that cost at summitracing.com,, but you won't get "blingy" stainless steel stuff (but you don't really need it anyway).
Or you could just go to a junkyard and find a Volvo 740 turbo, as mentioned, and probably pay $20 or $30 for the sandwich plate and decently sized oil cooler that is on the side of the Volvo radiator. The Mercedes 300d has a big oil cooler too.
I believe the VW actually does use 3/4" thread for the oil filter, not metric.
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Could I just remove the factory cooler and reuse the old 3/4"-16 cooler adaptor?
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Going the Volvo route, you'd want the Volvo block nipple. I didn't think of that, and had to buy an expensive die to shorten the air/water one.
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Been a guy on vortex in the A1 parts section selling external oil cooler setups for awhile now, worth looking up.
The Volvo bit is good stuff. Almost anything is better than the oil/water factory junk.
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Now what of ones with a thermostat? Necessary? You don't always want your oil as cold as possible do you?!
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Right on 8v, the one libby found at SUmmit Racing was perfect. It was also only 30.00 IIRC.
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You can run all the oil cooler you want as long as there's a t-stat, all factory setups will have one, Volvo had it in the adapter on the filter flange, mine has an external one that is pretty common on aircraft and everything else. I consider them nice to have on a NA, and mandatory on a turbo.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5774791-FS-Oil-Cooler-Setup-Temp.-Sandwich-and-Radiator (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5774791-FS-Oil-Cooler-Setup-Temp.-Sandwich-and-Radiator)
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I have read some accounts of dudes not runnin a thermo.. And they claim (with an oil temp gauge) no effect in warm up times.
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If ambient is enough and the cooler is small enough, and the motor makes enough heat, sure I'd believe that. But I personally will not have a car I can't drive anytime, anywhere. I've been on the road in cold enough weather in a blizzard that my na 1.6 couldn't maintain normal op temp and heater output at sustained 3rd gear crawling through snow. Too easy to run a tstat to not do it in my book. But I'm nitpicky. A couple UOA's would tell the tail.
Track or play car would be another story.
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I used a cooler that was 13x7x1 with 1/2" lines. If you don't have a thermo on that cooler you oil will have a hard time getting up to temps.
Libby found one for around 30 dollars that bolted on perfectly in place of the stock deal. It has a thermostat in it. It was from summit racing, but I cannot remember who made it. As a new part I used I fully endorce it if you find it.
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hda-205
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I have found the above Hayden thermo controlled sandwich plate to work well. It's thermostat is a bi-metallic strip that blocks flow to the cooler when under temp. Some have poo-poo'd the bi-metallic strip control. If you want to pay 3x as much for a different thermostat type, you could get the Mocal version:
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/1395/
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I have found the above Hayden thermo controlled sandwich plate to work well. It's thermostat is a bi-metallic strip that blocks flow to the cooler when under temp. Some have poo-poo'd the bi-metallic strip control. If you want to pay 3x as much for a different thermostat type, you could get the Mocal version:
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/1395/
Have you actually used it and made some sort of observations when it's cold out...
I have one (laying in my parts pile, I should add) and the thermostatic strip seems really cheezy, like it's not going to do anything because it doesn't really ever create a tight seal against the hole. At least that's how it looks to me.
edit: I think it closes when hot, but still it looks like it would bypass tons of oil when hot, and I thought about plugging the hole with a set screw, if I were to ever install it on something.
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Junkyard Volvo.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4981255-F.S.-Volvo-Setrab-oil-cooler-setup (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4981255-F.S.-Volvo-Setrab-oil-cooler-setup)
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I think I have this one on mine, speaking of which it needs an o-ring, weeps slightly.
Been in use for 140K or so/9ish years since new. That style is sold a lot of places.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/rmtoilthermsys.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/rmtoilthermsys.php)
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I have found the above Hayden thermo controlled sandwich plate to work well. It's thermostat is a bi-metallic strip that blocks flow to the cooler when under temp. Some have poo-poo'd the bi-metallic strip control. If you want to pay 3x as much for a different thermostat type, you could get the Mocal version:
http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/1395/
Have you actually used it and made some sort of observations when it's cold out...
I have one (laying in my parts pile, I should add) and the thermostatic strip seems really cheezy, like it's not going to do anything because it doesn't really ever create a tight seal against the hole. At least that's how it looks to me.
edit: I think it closes when hot, but still it looks like it would bypass tons of oil when hot, and I thought about plugging the hole with a set screw, if I were to ever install it on something.
Yes, I have used several of the Hayden model and have found them to work well. If memory serves, the strip closes when hot and oil pressure assists it in sealing.
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I used mine in Ohio with temps down to -15F that year. It worked fine. If I didn't have the thermo model with the big cooler I doubt I would get temps over 100F. I could get it up to temp and it would stay fine.
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I got interested in an oil cooler when my tired ass 1.6 TD that I drove the hell out of was seeing 240F and more during hard use.
I thought that was a bit much for a stock motor with dino oil that I wanted to last a long time.
I expressed my findings, having added an oil temp gauge and observed such, to my Pop
when he had the 82 and was installing the AAZ, so he went looking an oil/air cooler instead
of the coolant heater stock setup and scored a rather large Fluidyne unit .
That's how I ended up with such overkill.
It don't need it NA, but it's a hell of a safety net.
Crossing AZ with two people and a bed full with it on the floor in
5th forever I was glad it was there, ditto through the Mojave with the AC on
at noon. It's kinda like being too rich or too skinny, except for that thermostat.
The good one's bleed like a coolant thermostat as noted in the link I posted.
Also, overkill is consistently more fun. :)
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I am installing a dual oil filter set-up on my van along with an oil cooler and fan. I ran across this thread and figured I'd revive it as it pertains to what I'm trying to accomplish.
The difference in my layout is that the adapter that I'm using to move the filter from the side of the engine to the dual unit has no thermostatic valve, just two ports (in/out). Identical to the photo below.
(http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/900/969/969-1213.jpg)
I really need the thermo valve to get the oil temps up quickly but every one I can find (including the one libbydiesel recommended) fits between the filter and stock mount - keeping the oil filter next to the block. Does anyone know of a simple thermostatic oil valve I can install? I found one like this but was hoping for something simpler (and cheaper) this one runs around 60 to 80 bucks.
(http://www.jagg.com/images/accessories/4050-bypass-300px.jpg).
Any pointers appreciated.
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What's wrong with the stock VW
coolant/oil cooler? Is it thermostatically controlled? Its construction is also a sandwich plate and seems like it should work well.
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i think they work well for stock and easy driving the bad thing stock is that sometimes the inards rupture and mix the coolant and oil. the other bad thing about them is that they constantly are shedding the oil eat into the coolant, so it is putting more load on the coolant system which already tends to be a bit over loaded with idis. its not itself thermostatically controlled, but it is on the sealed engine side of the coolant thermostat so it is thermostatically controlled by the coolant in.
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You could buy the one libby and I use and spin the adapter you will buy onto that couldn't you?
Problem isn't with warming so much as you can run a huge cooler and not be too cold. Or run in low temps and not be too cold on the oil.
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i think they work well for stock and easy driving the bad thing stock is that sometimes the inards rupture and mix the coolant and oil.
On mine the outside ruptured, and pissed all my oil on the ground.
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http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/rmtoiltherm.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/rmtoiltherm.php)
Got that one on mine.
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You could buy the one libby and I use and spin the adapter you will buy onto that couldn't you?
I could but I'd have to plug two of the four ports - I'm OK with that I guess but it just seems kinda klu-gee. That is however the least expensive solution so far.
I've got some time to keep searching as I'm now waiting for a one hole MHG from the UK.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/rmtoiltherm.php
Got that one on mine.
That looks better than the Jagg as I think the ports are much bigger.
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No need. The one libby and I use would control the temp and run it to your cooler. Spin on the remote filter base to it and then put your filters wherever.
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Find a Volvo 240 or 740 turbo in junkyard if you are looking for cheap.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh136/redwoodchair/240%20Turbo%20Parts/240TurboOilCoolerKit1.jpg (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh136/redwoodchair/240%20Turbo%20Parts/240TurboOilCoolerKit1.jpg)
Everyone in Europe that had them factory used that setup. Except cheap-ass VW. :)
And Porsche since there junk is in the wrong end of the car.
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Find a Volvo 240 or 740 turbo in junkyard if you are looking for cheap.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh136/redwoodchair/240%20Turbo%20Parts/240TurboOilCoolerKit1.jpg (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh136/redwoodchair/240%20Turbo%20Parts/240TurboOilCoolerKit1.jpg)
Everyone in Europe that had them factory used that setup. Except cheap-ass VW. :)
And Porsche since there junk is in the wrong end of the car.
Thanks for the pointer - I'll check the local wreckers.
I already bought the cooler and fan though - just need a way to hold the oil back from the cooler till it warms up.
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That Volvo piece will do it if you can rummage one up, should be cheap, the remote filter adapter will go on after it. Snag the threaded tube off the Volvo too if you find one. The guys on turbobricks.com forum probably have one pretty cheap too.
The other one like aircraftspruce has is pretty common if you want to remote mount it for some reason.
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Find a Volvo 240 or 740 turbo in junkyard if you are looking for cheap.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh136/redwoodchair/240%20Turbo%20Parts/240TurboOilCoolerKit1.jpg (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh136/redwoodchair/240%20Turbo%20Parts/240TurboOilCoolerKit1.jpg)
Everyone in Europe that had them factory used that setup. Except cheap-ass VW. :)
And Porsche since there junk is in the wrong end of the car.
Thanks for the pointer - I'll check the local wreckers.
I already bought the cooler and fan though - just need a way to hold the oil back from the cooler till it warms up.
Did you read my post on the last of page 2?
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Did you read my post on the last of page 2?
I did. I ordered one last night along with a set of ARP studs from Summit - it made the adapter seem super inexpensive that way ;D
Not sure how I will plumb it but once I have it in my hands, I'll figure it out.
I'll want the oil to go to the dual filter unit first, then back to the by-pass. If it's cold it will keep doing the loop. Once it warms up, the by-pass will send it off to the oil cooler. That's the part I don't get yet - how that's all going to happen.
In my head, I can only see having the by-pass somewhere after the remote dual filter unit - creating the split based on temp.
Thanks guys. I'll keep you posted on how it works out. Hopefully, there won't be a snarl of hoses where my filter used to be, It's nice and clean with that simple two port adapter there now - no more dumping oil on the block when I change filters.
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The bypass will send all the oil to the filters. The separat lines will take the oil to the cooler.
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Going the Volvo route, you'd want the Volvo block nipple. I didn't think of that, and had to buy an expensive die to shorten the air/water one.
you NEED to have custom lines built too, BTW..
there is no way to easily use the OEM volvo 240 turbo cooler lines..
i bent them in many different shapes trying to make them work, but no dice.. you need to have custom oil lines made up, preferably out of some flexible line..
you need the 240T block nipple that the filter screws to, the sandwich, the lines, and the cooler..
the nipple from the 240 block needs even further shortening to fit the VW setup..
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Going the Volvo route, you'd want the Volvo block nipple. I didn't think of that, and had to buy an expensive die to shorten the air/water one.
you NEED to have custom lines built too, BTW..
there is no way to easily use the OEM volvo 240 turbo cooler lines..
i bent them in many different shapes trying to make them work, but no dice.. you need to have custom oil lines made up, preferably out of some flexible line..
you need the 240T block nipple that the filter screws to, the sandwich, the lines, and the cooler..
the nipple from the 240 block needs even further shortening to fit the VW setup..
Turbo, I am going to make custom lines anyhoo. I'd never run lines from a used engine even if I was going to use the Volvo cooler.
I think using the added kit mentioned by theman and routing the new hoses properly, all will work out.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Going the Volvo route, you'd want the Volvo block nipple. I didn't think of that, and had to buy an expensive die to shorten the air/water one.
you NEED to have custom lines built too, BTW..
there is no way to easily use the OEM volvo 240 turbo cooler lines..
i bent them in many different shapes trying to make them work, but no dice.. you need to have custom oil lines made up, preferably out of some flexible line..
you need the 240T block nipple that the filter screws to, the sandwich, the lines, and the cooler..
the nipple from the 240 block needs even further shortening to fit the VW setup..
Cutting the metal lines and using new 12mm ferrels solves the
"lines are too long" and
"can't bend them into shape"
problems, both at the same time.
I did reuse parts of the volvo metal lines and both the rubber ones.
One did eventually leak after about 3 years.
Some of the hose fittings for the volvo stuff, like 1/2 BSP fittings, is more expensive than AN fittings or similar flares.
and more difficult to find around here.
On custom Rabbits oil cooler lines; I have to use a 45degree adapters right from the sandwich to jump around the alternator.
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Fittings from 80s-90s Saab work on the Volvo stuff too, and Saab uses a rubber hose which is usually leaking, but you can have the Hydraulic shop put any length of new hose on those ends.
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I have the ends from the volvo hose that broke and can't find a local hydrolic shop that will crimp a new hose on the old ends.
Most of the new ends have a metal piece that crimps on the hose,
that got cut off when I removed it.
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Yeah, I don't imagine many shops would do that unless the parts were in great condition. I think what is being said is that a new hose can be made by bringing your old hose in. I have one hose shop that will pretty much make up anything if you want it. Most want to sell you all new stuff so they can stand behind it and make more money.
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Does it need to be hydraulic hose and crimped fittings? I mean were only talking max 100 psi. No doubt I'd never want it to fail but wouldn't thermo-plastic hose and AN fittings work, Then you could make them up yourself.
Thermo-plastic hose is rated to 2000 psi at 250 F for #8. I can get the hose for 3 bucks a foot and Summit has #8 straights for less than 7 bucks each. I'm just not sure if these fitting will fit that hose. The stainless braid cover stuff runs nearly 9 bucks a foot and while it looks cool, I doubt it's necessary.
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I personally hate the aluminum an fittings. It doesn't have to be hyd. Hose just oil rated and pressure rated enough for our engines
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So I'm concidering reusing the volvo compression fitting ends and double hose-clamping new hose over the barbed fittings.
I think the rubber hose I used is referred to as power steering line.
So much of the hydrolic hose has metal strands running through it and is very stiff but
the power steering stuff can handle some pressure and hot oil while still being flexible.
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I have the ends from the volvo hose that broke and can't find a local hydrolic shop that will crimp a new hose on the old ends.
Most of the new ends have a metal piece that crimps on the hose,
that got cut off when I removed it.
Here they charge me a buck or something for a new collar, and labor to crimp it to the new hose.
They will cut the old collar off to, but that adds to the labor, so they suggest doing it yourself.
Try some place that fixes tractors and ag sprayers.
You don't need the crimps, but they look cleaner, and fit easier, as well as clamping more evenly.