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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Hoble on February 04, 2013, 04:53:12 pm
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I'm building a 1.6/1.9 franken motor with power goals of 250+ hp. The block is all but assembled. now i need to deal with the head. Im about to order a new 1.9 head from overland in California. I have a dr. diesel cam for it but im thinking its not enough. was planning on doing some port and polishing as well. The head is where you can gain a lot of power if done right and if you can cram enough air in, so i was now im thinking bigger valves and a way more aggressive cam. Ive only heard about the dr. diesel one for the idi motors but ive heard of people running tdi cams? any benifit of running a tdi performance cam?
I dont know where to start with the head. Havent delt with them before. Some advice would help me along greatly and would be much appreciated!
Lee
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I am pretty certain the Dr. Diesel camshaft is the best you can get for the 4 cylinder Volkswagen IDI.
250 horsepower, crank or wheel? Steep goals either way ;)
I cannot for the life of me remember what his username was, but he was a serious/heavy builder of these 1.6 engines and the most he managed was 195 BHP with one done to the nines.
You are correct in the thoughts of cramming air in, but as far as I am aware the 1.9 head is pretty damn optimal as-is maybe some port work needed.. Get a really efficient turbo, and an Air-to-Water intercooler with an extremely efficient setup so you will experience less than 0.1% of pressure drop through it and it will be able to cool to ambient temps. This will allow you to run as much boost as whatever turbo you decide to run will run efficiently..
This is where the real power is, lotsa fuel, and lotsa cold air.
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block it bored out 1mm over with ks pistons, rosten rods, lighten intermediate shaft, compound turbos (gt2056 and gt2871 the 2871 will more than accommodate me air needs) water meth, water air IC, cam, head work, giles super pump, rebuilt injectors, 3/8ths block girdle, gravity feed fueling.
What ever i can do i am. I'm avoiding propane and nos though...
You are correct though, 250 (wheel btw) is going to be a challenge, thats the point haha
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I will PM you. I have a head being made that maybe similar to what you seek.
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but ive heard of people running tdi cams? any benifit of running a tdi performance cam?
That's interesting you should say that. I've heard of the TDI guys using IDI cams for more power.
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I am pretty certain the Dr. Diesel camshaft is the best you can get for the 4 cylinder Volkswagen IDI.
250 horsepower, crank or wheel? Steep goals either way ;)
I cannot for the life of me remember what his username was, but he was a serious/heavy builder of these 1.6 engines and the most he managed was 195 BHP with one done to the nines.
You are correct in the thoughts of cramming air in, but as far as I am aware the 1.9 head is pretty damn optimal as-is maybe some port work needed.. Get a really efficient turbo, and an Air-to-Water intercooler with an extremely efficient setup so you will experience less than 0.1% of pressure drop through it and it will be able to cool to ambient temps. This will allow you to run as much boost as whatever turbo you decide to run will run efficiently..
This is where the real power is, lotsa fuel, and lotsa cold air.
Dave's engine did 195whp 935racer. But he also was very short on fuel since he only had a 9mm pump and could have used a better turbo since he was running a to4e. Even still 250 is alot to ask of a 1.6 but I don't think it's impossible. 1.9 heads can definitely use porting, they have the same ***ty exhaust ports as a 1.6
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Bigger exhaust valves would definitely help. Just be careful of the porting as there are coolant passages close to the exhaust ports near the manifold end.
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Bigger exhaust valves would definitely help. Just be careful of the porting as there are coolant passages close to the exhaust ports near the manifold end.
are the VALVES, or the PORTS the weak point?
i would think that opening up the ports would make for bigger gains than just bigger valves..
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IIRC one of the crazy Scandinavian guys: Aki76, I'm blanking on the other names to look up, had an IDI head with huge valves in it, it looked like the intake and exhaust valves practically touched one another. Might be worth searching and digging through some old threads.
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IIRC one of the crazy Scandinavian guys: Aki76, I'm blanking on the other names to look up, had an IDI head with huge valves in it, it looked like the intake and exhaust valves practically touched one another. Might be worth searching and digging through some old threads.
Yeah, pretty sure that was an Aki76 build. I think the valves were titanium, iirc. TurboJ, Alcaid, and MJF are all names to be aware of if you need to read about making big power.
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some flowbench data
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o719/Aki-765/jetankansi_zps9abfcbd5.jpg)
blue graph is from almost stock head
red graph is from a head that has bigger valves and which has been extensively modified
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From all that I have read and done the valves are huge gains and porting are big gains. You should have both, but if you can afford valves that is where the big gains are. 7mm stems too not 8mm. Porting is all about velocity, not all out flow, so remember that when you are thinking of taking tons of material out.
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As for the porting, I know gas motors you are supposed to leave the intake a little rough and not polish that one, only the exhaust side. Does this not apply to diesels? Polished would help air get in fast.
And 7mm stems on a 1.9 head?
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7mm if you can find guides and valves
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As for the porting, I know gas motors you are supposed to leave the intake a little rough and not polish that one, only the exhaust side. Does this not apply to diesels? Polished would help air get in fast.
And 7mm stems on a 1.9 head?
I'm not sure polishing is an issue here, since a diesel doesn't rely the rough surfaces in the intake/port to help mix the fuel and air the way a gas engine does. I think you would be fine with polished surfaces.
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I'm not sure polishing is an issue here, since a diesel doesn't rely the rough surfaces in the intake/port to help mix the fuel and air the way a gas engine does. I think you would be fine with polished surfaces.
It has been covered, but I cannot recall what the out-come was.
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I'm not sure polishing is an issue here, since a diesel doesn't rely the rough surfaces in the intake/port to help mix the fuel and air the way a gas engine does. I think you would be fine with polished surfaces.
True, but the air may find it easier to maintain laminar flow with a small turbulent boundary layer, like the vortex generators a jet has above the flaps.
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The 1.9 head has the valves spaced further apart than what the 1.6 heads have so watch out for shrouding with bigger valves if you using that head on a 1.6 bottom end! Also the prechamber doesn't have the optimal location as it should have.
I have a head being prepped for me now showing 62% increase in steady flow, and 71% increase in dynamic (pulse) flow compared to stock AAZ head flow tested on 76.5mm bore. Intakes valves are only marginally bigger than stock.
Consider getting a cam with significantly more valve lift, when these heads are ported they love the extra lift!
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That's what I was thinking, get it in as fast and out as fast as I can
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Had anyone figured out what sized cam works best? I'd love to send one off to get ground to custom. I'm still in search of a shop that will do head work with a good reputation.
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You might contact Giles or Passenger Performance for a head porting source. They should know the major players in the IDI game since they have been around them for a few years.
Justice
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If you are interested in a complete 7mm stem valvetrain setup, Techtonics got all the parts for me. I am building a 1.5L / 1.9 head Franken motor.
Techtonics supplied all the valves, guides, springs, shims, keepers, etc, and lifters to convert from 8mm to 7mm stem diameters.
They were very helpful.
Steve.
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If you are interested in a complete 7mm stem valvetrain setup, Techtonics got all the parts for me. I am building a 1.5L / 1.9 head Franken motor.
Techtonics supplied all the valves, guides, springs, shims, keepers, etc, and lifters to convert from 8mm to 7mm stem diameters.
They were very helpful.
Steve.
Did you go larger than stock on the valve size? KS lists the stock size as 36mm intake and 31mm exhaust.
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I'm not sure polishing is an issue here, since a diesel doesn't rely the rough surfaces in the intake/port to help mix the fuel and air the way a gas engine does. I think you would be fine with polished surfaces.
True, but the air may find it easier to maintain laminar flow with a small turbulent boundary layer, like the vortex generators a jet has above the flaps.
Mirror polish flows less ive seen it on a few write ups. Like dimples on a golf ball
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Mirror polish flows less ive seen it on a few write ups. Like dimples on a golf ball
On that subject, have you seen these valves?
(http://www.williamsmotowerx.net/images/valve2.jpg)
http://www.williamsmotowerx.net/valves.htm
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LOL... "replace your valves every 20 hours"
under severe racing conditions?!
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Its for motocross engines, they don't tend to last very long ;)
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Its for motocross engines, they don't tend to last very long ;)
ahh, that makes sense..
i wonder if you can get dimpled valves in a size that fits our diesels?!
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Did you go larger than stock on the valve size? KS lists the stock size as 36mm intake and 31mm exhaust.
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Stock size on the valves, just smaller stems. I wanted to keep this on a budget that was manageable for me. The head I bought had already been lightly ported, but did not have valves or springs installed.
Since I was buying new valvetrain components, I just went for the 7mm stems and guides, along with upgraded springs.
I'm certainly not an expert on AAZ stuff, but did learn that there are several combinations of valve and spring packages that came as factory stock equipment, mainly depending on the model year of the head.
Steve.
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So it's better to have a semi rough intake and a polished exhaust?
I think with my turbo setup and choices ill have problems keeping my head on the block. Has anyone figured out a way to keep these bolted down?
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Its for motocross engines, they don't tend to last very long ;)
ahh, that makes sense..
i wonder if you can get dimpled valves in a size that fits our diesels?!
That and I bet even in high rev racing conditions the valves probably get gunked up and the dimples fill in a bit. Then it would be like a normal vavle again. Our diesels even more so than the gassers would tend to carbon up a little.
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So it's better to have a semi rough intake and a polished exhaust?
I think with my turbo setup and choices ill have problems keeping my head on the block. Has anyone figured out a way to keep these bolted down?
I wouldn't say rough, just not mirror. IIRC 120 grit finish is where mine was at. It isn't smooth, but it isn't rough. The 120 grit surface seems to grab your fingerprint a bit not much, when running across it. 80 I know was too coarse. I will see if I can post a pic of my intake I made as the welds were cleaned up with the same grit as the head.
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(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b531/the_man_53/DSC05370_zps0d37953b.jpg)
Old head pics
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b531/the_man_53/old%20cylinder%20head/HPIM6620_zpsddabb75a.jpg)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b531/the_man_53/old%20cylinder%20head/HPIM6622_zps4da31ce1.jpg)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b531/the_man_53/old%20cylinder%20head/HPIM6619_zpsefbab720.jpg)
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Beautiful work on that intake. :o Did you do the fab & welding yourself?
Steve.
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no. I haven't had much experience with a tig. A guy I have a customer I sell to and he did the welding, but I did all the fab and porting. I guess you could say I built it. I am more of a hammer guy and my tig customer is more of an artist. If you look at my sig there is a 'round 2' and page 2 that explains how it was built. SAUSAGE STUFFERS!!!
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So it's better to have a semi rough intake and a polished exhaust?
I think with my turbo setup and choices ill have problems keeping my head on the block. Has anyone figured out a way to keep these bolted down?
run a different turbo that makes less drive pressure..
drive pressure is what kills these, not boost..
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Both turbos are pretty efficient and running 44mm wastegates. What's the best way to monitor that pressure?
I'm actually running a 1.8l 8v intake with the ports modified to fit the 1.9 D intake ports. Need to cut off the original tube and weld on something better. I am the active tig welder at the shop I work at. When it's done I'll post some pictures.
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Both turbos are pretty efficient and running 44mm wastegates. What's the best way to monitor that pressure?
I'm actually running a 1.8l 8v intake with the ports modified to fit the 1.9 D intake ports. Need to cut off the original tube and weld on something better. I am the active tig welder at the shop I work at. When it's done I'll post some pictures.
if u have that intake with and with proper sized turbo u shouldn't have any issue. just drill and tap a fitting in the exhaust manifold and watch your emp's just like u would watch boost pressure.
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So it's better to have a semi rough intake and a polished exhaust?
I think with my turbo setup and choices ill have problems keeping my head on the block. Has anyone figured out a way to keep these bolted down?
I wouldn't say rough, just not mirror. IIRC 120 grit finish is where mine was at. It isn't smooth, but it isn't rough. The 120 grit surface seems to grab your fingerprint a bit not much, when running across it. 80 I know was too coarse. I will see if I can post a pic of my intake I made as the welds were cleaned up with the same grit as the head.
yep, i finished mine with 120 grit then the machine shop i had do all the valve work sand blasted all the ports
here is mine u can see i didn't remove much of the hump around the valve guide, i guess i should have judging by how lucas's looks.:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/DSCN0848.jpg)
and here is my exhaust manifold tapped for emp gauge, and a coil of copper to help keep the hose from getting hot
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/photo2.jpg)
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Both turbos are pretty efficient and running 44mm wastegates. What's the best way to monitor that pressure?
I'm actually running a 1.8l 8v intake with the ports modified to fit the 1.9 D intake ports. Need to cut off the original tube and weld on something better. I am the active tig welder at the shop I work at. When it's done I'll post some pictures.
1Y manifold is JUST what you need.. already has the D ports, and it is shaped almost identical to the mk2 1.8L intake mani..
no welding required, unless you want to completely remove the EGR accommodations..
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no. I haven't had much experience with a tig. A guy I have a customer I sell to and he did the welding, but I did all the fab and porting. I guess you could say I built it. I am more of a hammer guy and my tig customer is more of an artist. If you look at my sig there is a 'round 2' and page 2 that explains how it was built. SAUSAGE STUFFERS!!!
Don't know how I missed your "Round 2" build thread before, but I was missing out. ;D The sausage stuffer tubes look like they worked well for the transition pieces.
I like your idea & need to see how to approach my own intake project. I just bought an ABL intake, I believe from a 1.9 Vanagon. I'm planning to use that as my starting point.
Steve.
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i have a 1y intake and it looks way better than gtd ones...
well i have 1Y all around and when i started the build i was told that they had the 7mm stem valves from stock...
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I have more time than money and I would at a machine shop. Making an intake is easy for me. It would be harder to go find a 1Y intake an buy it and ship it. Plus this way it's all custom to what I want.
Side note, got some Alu pulleys made up for my motor at work, do you know the crank bolt hole pattern isn't really a pattern? They aren't in a circle at all and not symmetrical at all. Just kinda weird VW did that.
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Side note, got some Alu pulleys made up for my motor at work, do you know the crank bolt hole pattern isn't really a pattern? They aren't in a circle at all and not symmetrical at all. Just kinda weird VW did that.
IIRC, they just offset one hole a few degrees...?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5BnZN3k7JBM/URU9qiC56pI/AAAAAAAABBc/NtGHfRn8_ns/s800/cog1.png)
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That's good to know. I assume the bolt pattern is indexed like that so the pulley only goes on one way, thus allowing the timing alignment marks to be used.
Steve.
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That's good to know. I assume the bolt pattern is indexed like that so the pulley only goes on one way, thus allowing the timing alignment marks to be used.
Steve.
Precisely correct.
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Hi,
i have a 1,9 AAZ engine in my Golf MKII (build thread in this Forum) and managed 190 hp with nearly 30 psi boost and to small intercooler. From my experience the valves are the bigges (smallest) bottleneck for gaining big power figures. I have had a ported head with stock valves and first stock camshaft and than a DrDiesel version, and managed 150-165 hp and agree on your assumption that the Drdiesel cam will be not enough for your goals. It is definitely an upgrade but in my eyes more for a stock head and turbo setup.
So if you ask me what to do, to realy get high peak power figures i would say, increase inlet ports as much as possible and get the biggest inlet and exhaust valves which would fit with your bore diameter. If your turbo setup is only for peak power and take no care of low end grunt, also go for really big exhaust port, but otherwise only slighly increase the exhasut ports. The 1.9 head exhaust ports are smaller than the 1.6 port and i would not increase than much bigger than the 1.6 head ports. If want to go further be very carefull, my second step porting at the exhaust ports results in a very big break through to the water duct (you can find pictures in my built thread). For the cam i would buy a stock AAZ cam and let it regrinded by a tuner shop to TDI upgrade spec with higher lift and advanced timing.
My is regrinded by Dblias, the spec can also be found in my built thread, but for your power goal i woud use the next stage for lift and timing.
The problem i see , is that you will get an compression issue with high lift cams, because you will need to bring the valves deeper in the head to increase the valve piston clearance, what will decrease the compression ratio. In your case the compression is low from start up, because you have the bigger 1.9 prechamber in combination with the 1.6 block so this could be a serios issue with your franken setup. My 1.9 only starts with two time glowing, when it is cold and even that is only good above ~-5°C, below that it could take even more glowing and a very good batterie.
What is your shedule for the injection pump, to reach you power figures with the 1.6 bottom end you will need al lot of fuel at a high speed range, so injecting the right amount of fuel in the right amount of time will be a real competition. From my experience i would go for Ø10mm hp plunger and very steep camplate (i.e. DI AFN 4,0 mm DI camplate), i have run this as setup for a while but it has destroys to sets of injection during short time, so i change to 1.6 DI camplate with Ø12mm plunger, with is a better setup for my engine but has less efficiency at really high speeds.
Because i did not mention before, it is very nice to see people with ambitious goals and i would love to follow your built thread if there is one (will be one ;)).
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
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That's good to know. I assume the bolt pattern is indexed like that so the pulley only goes on one way, thus allowing the timing alignment marks to be used.
Steve.
Precisely correct.
Then what's the point of the nub and hole that alignes it? Why have the over redundancy?
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That's good to know. I assume the bolt pattern is indexed like that so the pulley only goes on one way, thus allowing the timing alignment marks to be used.
Precisely correct.
Then what's the point of the nub and hole that alignes it? Why have the over redundancy?
Could be to ensure that the proper pulley goes on next in the stack... the wrong pulley might not have a hole to accept the nub.