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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: danster on November 20, 2012, 03:17:47 am
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I am looking for some info on the VW IDI engines used in industrial / plant machinery and marine applications.
Mainly the 1.6 for a project I have on the go but it might be good to list differences and pictures if folk have them from all the other capacity engines for reference.
On automotive applications I have found the vacuum pump drive and the oil pump shaft slots can suffer from substantial wear. As I don't need the vacuum pump I was hoping to replace these and considered that the industrial engines may use a different setup as there is generally no need for a vacuum pump on a plant engine.
I had it all planned out and was going to replace the 1.6 IDI intermediate shaft with the one from an 8v petrol 1.6 or 1.8, fit the diesel timing belt drive pulley, then use the skew drive gear and oil pump from a 16v 1.8. Topping off the block hole with the 16v blanking plug where the vacuum pump or dizzy would normally sit.
Then I remembered the timing belt runs around the intermediate shaft pulley driving the shaft CCW on a diesel compared to the petrol versions that are turned CW.
Doh! So my plan was a fail as that would mean the oil pump would turn the wrong way as the skew gears on the IM shaft and pump drive gears are cut with the helix different ways on the diesel and petrol engines to turn rotate the oil pump correctly.
So do the industrial or plant engines use a different arrangement that does not have a vacuum pump?
Edited to include marine options.
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Update. I have been having a search through VAGCAT and it lists some vehicles fitted with early diesel engines that did not have a brake servo fitted. This was a note within the engine parts lists so presumably this means no vacuum pump would be incorporated on engines in those vehicles.
This could be a source for parts that would allow me to remove the vacuum pump.
Has anyone ever seen diesel engines without the pump fitted?
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My first diesel had manual brakes, no vacuum actuated brake servo to help with braking and therefore did not have any vacuum pump as it was not necessary. (it has a plug with a gear on it to drive the oil pump) However, if my memory serves me right, this was a 1.5 engine, not a 1.6 l. I don't know if the plug and gear fits a 1.6. I do not have the car or any parts but others may have something.
Just a note, my 2.0 16V car has a plug as the distibutor is on the head. I bought this from Bahn Brenner. I'm assuming this would work(maybe) if you could find the correct gear, as you are correct, the diesel turns the opposite direction of the gasser.
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i think the only real difference was in the injection pump which had a different type of governor. some of the old 1.5's came with block off setups instead of the vaccuum pumps from what i understand they are proprietary to diesels, i would imagine they'd work on 1.6's tho, not sure about aaz and tdi. i have one of the 1.5 setups pump and all.
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Vac pump is required on diesels as it drives the CCV system.
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Update. I have been having a search through VAGCAT and it lists some vehicles fitted with early diesel engines that did not have a brake servo fitted. This was a note within the engine parts lists so presumably this means no vacuum pump would be incorporated on engines in those vehicles.
This could be a source for parts that would allow me to remove the vacuum pump.
Has anyone ever seen diesel engines without the pump fitted?
beware, this setup is SUPER rare..
it requires a special splined-shaft oil pump, much like a 16v unit, but different as well..
the gear sits on the splined shaft, just like a 16v, with hold down cap containing the sliding weight..
so, if you went this way, you would need the super small 1.5D oil pump, the gear, and the hold down..
GOOD LUCK on your search.. never ever seen one of these setups for sale before...
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Vac pump is required on diesels as it drives the CCV system.
the blow by vapors will still be pushed out of the engine just because its running, and producing MORE CCV gasses, so the existing gasses are still evacuated..
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If you don't wipe after you crap, you can still get your pants back on too.
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If you don't wipe after you crap, you can still get your pants back on too.
the vacuum pump PRESSURIZES the block tho..
no internal pressure is what you are looking for..
actually, if you can maintain a VACUUM in the crank case, its even that much better..
PRESSURE inside a VW crank case is a bad thing.. makes them sweat oil..
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Thanks for the input so far folks. Please add anything else you can think of or even pictures of the parts or engines which would be helpful.
The project engine I am working on is not a high performance build. It's just a 1.6 N/A IDI engine that is only going to sit at a constant 1500rpm so the small oil pump from the 1.5 may well be suitable, or even just the drive gear and bits could be adapted. I suppose I could just cut down a vacuum pump but it seems a waste to do that.
In the past on petrol engines I have changed the actual pump gears by pressing out the drive shaft and refitting it to the later and larger gears and pump housing.
I have been having a search around and found this site.
http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/Volkswagen/performance/engines_components/
It seems to have a lot of kit and a few marine applications which utilise a few out of the ordinary parts and ideas. (full steel sumps for Mk4s too!)
(http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/engines/images/Marine_Diesel_web.jpg)
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any better pics of the heat exchanger and exhaust manifold?
thats FRIGGEN COOL!!
i would SOO put a 1.6TD in my boat if i could..
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any better pics of the heat exchanger and exhaust manifold?
thats FRIGGEN COOL!!
i would SOO put a 1.6TD in my boat if i could..
You can! Go find some pathfinder marine parts and make it happen. Post pics.
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All you need is the gear for the oil pump for a diesel. NLA from the dealer. They were $350!!! I've got two complete setups.
But if you did find one, a 1.8L 16V or 2.0L 16V oil pump has the splined shaft. But the top cap you want has to be from a 1.8L 16V due to the size of the hole your capping off.
I did find a new, non-servo brake assist, oil pump and gear at the local parts house for $80. But it was the old, early 30mm oil pump.
I pressed the gears off from that pump and a 36mm pump and pressed on the splined shaft to the 36mm gear, and presto.
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any better pics of the heat exchanger and exhaust manifold?
thats FRIGGEN COOL!!
i would SOO put a 1.6TD in my boat if i could..
There is more info on marine kit in these links.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/marinizing-vw-turbodiesel-engines-19118.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/narrowboat-engine-23212.html
All you need is the gear for the oil pump for a diesel. NLA from the dealer. They were $350!!! I've got two complete setups.
But if you did find one, a 1.8L 16V or 2.0L 16V oil pump has the splined shaft. But the top cap you want has to be from a 1.8L 16V due to the size of the hole your capping off.
I did find a new, non-servo brake assist, oil pump and gear at the local parts house for $80. But it was the old, early 30mm oil pump.
I pressed the gears off from that pump and a 36mm pump and pressed on the splined shaft to the 36mm gear, and presto.
Thanks for that. I have been back on VagCat and with a bit more cross-referencing it looks like just a 1.6 diesel non vacuum pump oil pump drive gear will be all I require to make this work as I can use the 1.8 16v oil pump and block blanking plug.
The part number for the oil pump skew gear appears to be 068 115 027 B.
So does anyone happen to have an old junk engine that may have a suitable gear inside? :)
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actually, if you can maintain a VACUUM in the crank case, its even that much better..
Not really. You need pressure inside the case for the oil seals. Plus, if you have a vacuum you will probably end up sucking dirt into the engine
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actually, if you can maintain a VACUUM in the crank case, its even that much better..
Not really. You need pressure inside the case for the oil seals. Plus, if you have a vacuum you will probably end up sucking dirt into the engine
alot of race engines keep vacuum in the crank and they make more power that way, but it involves a dry sump set up. the vacuum pump blowing into the block is not any kind of an important job of the pump, obviously since gassers don't have it, and if u don't have power brakes u don't have it.
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Mark in the UK had the idea to run a vacuum pump without the vanes, for setups not req vacuum. As yet untested AFAIK, but might save time/effort.
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relative:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25805.15
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Mark in the UK had the idea to run a vacuum pump without the vanes, for setups not req vacuum. As yet untested AFAIK, but might save time/effort.
That could be an option, but I have always found the slots on the diesel oil pump shaft and vacuum pump wear badly. If I can replace them with a splined gear setup then that would eliminate the problem and be the perfect solution.
relative:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25805.15
Interesting link.
I have slid the oil pump shaft with the slot into the vacuum pump and there is play. Not just play in the slots due to wear, but play due to there being a difference in the OD of the shaft to the ID of the gear, so with the gear being cut off the pump there is no support on the upper side and nothing to hold it concentric, therefore I would be concerned the gear could move around and not mesh correctly with the corresponding gear on the end of the IM shaft.
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actually, if you can maintain a VACUUM in the crank case, its even that much better..
Not really. You need pressure inside the case for the oil seals. Plus, if you have a vacuum you will probably end up sucking dirt into the engine
Tyler, drag racing engines are under VACUUM 100% of the time.. they SUCK the CCV out of them..
Vacuum in the crank case even makes the rings seal better, so ive been told..
windage is also much less when under vacuum, again, so ive been told.. no actual experience with big drag motors..
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obviously since gassers don't have it, and if u don't have power brakes u don't have it.
Gassers do have a vacuum pump, it's called an engine with a throttle plate. there is a reason all of them have run PCV since it was invented.
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obviously since gassers don't have it, and if u don't have power brakes u don't have it.
Gassers do have a vacuum pump, it's called an engine with a throttle plate. there is a reason all of them have run PCV since it was invented.
yeah but it is run to a spot that doesn't add or take pressure away and its there for emissions reasons.
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Yes and no, it does help with emissions.
It's also there because crankcase fumes are bad for the engine, and dangerous to the operator.
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LOL with all this talk of vacuum we are getting sucked off topic! ;D
But before I try to steer it back to the engines and just for thought, how can the vacuum pump create a vacuum in the crankcase? The pump is pulling a vacuum to the brake servo which is effectively a sealed chamber with no flow. There are no other ports that I can see on the pump, so if it is sucking on the inlet it must be pumping on the other engine side and possibly pressurising the crankcase. It can't be pulling a vacuum in both directions if there is no other outlet for the pressure side to go to.
Anyway I don't want a vacuum pump if possible, the engine can breath it's crankcase pressure into the inlet manifold as it was actually designed to do to keep the valve seats lubricated by the oil mist. Think I read that in a link posted by TrevOrb about the 1.5 engine.
Oh, and I just called a VW Industrial / Marine engine and parts supplier and the gear I need is still available, albeit at too high a price for a tight Scotsman to actually consider buying. I could buy muchos beer and another couple of engines for the price they wanted for it! :o
I had a good chat with the guy and he was saying that the smaller car sized diesel VW industrial and marine engines are widely used in forklifts (up to approx 5 tonne), electrical generators, certain military equipment, and also the RNLI which is the British lifeboat search and rescue organisation use a twin TDI setup in their hovercrafts. 8)
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LOL with all this talk of vacuum we are getting sucked off topic! ;D
But before I try to steer it back to the engines and just for thought, how can the vacuum pump create a vacuum in the crankcase? The pump is pulling a vacuum to the brake servo which is effectively a sealed chamber with no flow. There are no other ports that I can see on the pump, so if it is sucking on the inlet it must be pumping on the other engine side and possibly pressurising the crankcase. It can't be pulling a vacuum in both directions if there is no other outlet for the pressure side to go to.
Anyway I don't want a vacuum pump if possible, the engine can breath it's crankcase pressure into the inlet manifold as it was actually designed to do to keep the valve seats lubricated by the oil mist. Think I read that in a link posted by TrevOrb about the 1.5 engine.
Oh, and I just called a VW Industrial / Marine engine and parts supplier and the gear I need is still available, albeit at too high a price for a tight Scotsman to actually consider buying. I could buy muchos beer and another couple of engines for the price they wanted for it! :o
I had a good chat with the guy and he was saying that the smaller car sized diesel VW industrial and marine engines are widely used in forklifts (up to approx 5 tonne), electrical generators, certain military equipment, and also the RNLI which is the British lifeboat search and rescue organisation use a twin TDI setup in their hovercrafts. 8)
The diaphragm type vacuum pump exhausts into the crankcase, generating a small amount of (negligible) pressure. The vane type vacuum pump exhausts into the atmosphere. Why not take a diaphragm type vac pump (cheap and easy to find), cut a few holes in the diaphragm (so it's not doing any work creating vacuum), plug the in/out ports and run it?
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LOL with all this talk of vacuum we are getting sucked off topic! ;D
But before I try to steer it back to the engines and just for thought, how can the vacuum pump create a vacuum in the crankcase? The pump is pulling a vacuum to the brake servo which is effectively a sealed chamber with no flow. There are no other ports that I can see on the pump, so if it is sucking on the inlet it must be pumping on the other engine side and possibly pressurising the crankcase. It can't be pulling a vacuum in both directions if there is no other outlet for the pressure side to go to.
Anyway I don't want a vacuum pump if possible, the engine can breath it's crankcase pressure into the inlet manifold as it was actually designed to do to keep the valve seats lubricated by the oil mist. Think I read that in a link posted by TrevOrb about the 1.5 engine.
Oh, and I just called a VW Industrial / Marine engine and parts supplier and the gear I need is still available, albeit at too high a price for a tight Scotsman to actually consider buying. I could buy muchos beer and another couple of engines for the price they wanted for it! :o
I had a good chat with the guy and he was saying that the smaller car sized diesel VW industrial and marine engines are widely used in forklifts (up to approx 5 tonne), electrical generators, certain military equipment, and also the RNLI which is the British lifeboat search and rescue organisation use a twin TDI setup in their hovercrafts. 8)
The diaphragm type vacuum pump exhausts into the crankcase, generating a small amount of (negligible) pressure. The vane type vacuum pump exhausts into the atmosphere. Why not take a diaphragm type vac pump (cheap and easy to find), cut a few holes in the diaphragm (so it's not doing any work creating vacuum), plug the in/out ports and run it?
nah, they both exhaust into the crank case..
EVEN THE vane pump..
and if you hook up a vacuum pump backwards, meaning that it was SUCKING the CCV out of the engine, thats how a dragster is set up..
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LOL with all this talk of vacuum we are getting sucked off topic! ;D
But before I try to steer it back to the engines and just for thought, how can the vacuum pump create a vacuum in the crankcase? The pump is pulling a vacuum to the brake servo which is effectively a sealed chamber with no flow. There are no other ports that I can see on the pump, so if it is sucking on the inlet it must be pumping on the other engine side and possibly pressurising the crankcase. It can't be pulling a vacuum in both directions if there is no other outlet for the pressure side to go to.
Anyway I don't want a vacuum pump if possible, the engine can breath it's crankcase pressure into the inlet manifold as it was actually designed to do to keep the valve seats lubricated by the oil mist. Think I read that in a link posted by TrevOrb about the 1.5 engine.
Oh, and I just called a VW Industrial / Marine engine and parts supplier and the gear I need is still available, albeit at too high a price for a tight Scotsman to actually consider buying. I could buy muchos beer and another couple of engines for the price they wanted for it! :o
I had a good chat with the guy and he was saying that the smaller car sized diesel VW industrial and marine engines are widely used in forklifts (up to approx 5 tonne), electrical generators, certain military equipment, and also the RNLI which is the British lifeboat search and rescue organisation use a twin TDI setup in their hovercrafts. 8)
The diaphragm type vacuum pump exhausts into the crankcase, generating a small amount of (negligible) pressure. The vane type vacuum pump exhausts into the atmosphere. Why not take a diaphragm type vac pump (cheap and easy to find), cut a few holes in the diaphragm (so it's not doing any work creating vacuum), plug the in/out ports and run it?
nah, they both exhaust into the crank case..
EVEN THE vane pump..
and if you hook up a vacuum pump backwards, meaning that it was SUCKING the CCV out of the engine, thats how a dragster is set up..
Thanks for correcting me. I must have gotten mixed up with certain Mercedes diesel model years where some exhaust into the crankcase and some exhaust into atmosphere.
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I'm considering getting a delete for my vacuum pump. As of now, it generates a peak of 10mmHg vacuum, and my brakes work great.
Is the splined oil-pump drive shaft sturdy enough to handle the deflection and side-loading of the gear, or does the plug also act as a support bearing for the gear?
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I'm considering getting a delete for my vacuum pump. As of now, it generates a peak of 10mmHg vacuum, and my brakes work great.
Is the splined oil-pump drive shaft sturdy enough to handle the deflection and side-loading of the gear, or does the plug also act as a support bearing for the gear?
the shaft is the only support..
that bronze bushing under the gear is what handles ALL of the thrust loads..
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Maybe I'll just do the vacuum pump hack then.
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Maybe I'll just do the vacuum pump hack then.
the 1.5 had the same setup.. bronze bushing and oil pump shaft were the only thing holding the gear and its thrusts..
and it worked for that engine..
honestly, i would look a "dizzy grizzy" from BBM.. dont think it will work without mods, but i know it can be made to work..
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Maybe I'll just do the vacuum pump hack then.
the 1.5 had the same setup.. bronze bushing and oil pump shaft were the only thing holding the gear and its thrusts..
and it worked for that engine.
Does the 1.5 engine without a vacuum pump not use a fully splined oil pump shaft for the gear to sit on like the 16v petrol? If so then that design means the drive gear is fully supported and held concentric by the splined design.
But as I mentioned earlier in the thread.....
I have slid the oil pump shaft with the slot into the vacuum pump and there is play. Not just play in the slots due to wear, but play due to there being a difference in the OD of the shaft to the ID of the gear, so with the gear being cut off the pump there is no support on the upper side and nothing to hold it concentric, therefore I would be concerned the gear could move around and not mesh correctly with the corresponding gear on the end of the IM shaft.
The helical gear design means there is thrust trying to force the gear down, but also at 90deg to this as the teeth profile try to push it out of mesh unless the gear is held in a position it was designed to run in. Cutting the vacuum pump would really require the cut to be made above the clamped base so the shaft with the gear on is still supported. This would be complicated further as there is an oil feed up to the internal chamber of the vacuum pump.
I ended up just refitting the existing oil pump and vacuum pump today to allow me to get the engine running. If one of these rare gears turns up it only require the vacuum pump, sump and oil pump to be removed to convert it.
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Maybe I'll just do the vacuum pump hack then.
the 1.5 had the same setup.. bronze bushing and oil pump shaft were the only thing holding the gear and its thrusts..
and it worked for that engine.
Does the 1.5 engine without a vacuum pump not use a fully splined oil pump shaft for the gear to sit on like the 16v petrol? If so then that design means the drive gear is fully supported and held concentric by the splined design.
But as I mentioned earlier in the thread.....
I have slid the oil pump shaft with the slot into the vacuum pump and there is play. Not just play in the slots due to wear, but play due to there being a difference in the OD of the shaft to the ID of the gear, so with the gear being cut off the pump there is no support on the upper side and nothing to hold it concentric, therefore I would be concerned the gear could move around and not mesh correctly with the corresponding gear on the end of the IM shaft.
The helical gear design means there is thrust trying to force the gear down, but also at 90deg to this as the teeth profile try to push it out of mesh unless the gear is held in a position it was designed to run in. Cutting the vacuum pump would really require the cut to be made above the clamped base so the shaft with the gear on is still supported. This would be complicated further as there is an oil feed up to the internal chamber of the vacuum pump.
I ended up just refitting the existing oil pump and vacuum pump today to allow me to get the engine running. If one of these rare gears turns up it only require the vacuum pump, sump and oil pump to be removed to convert it.
the 1.5 used an identical design as the 16v
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Wonder if it might not be easier to have cryotreated and otherwise space-age coated the parts that wear to minimize it.
I've seen them wear too but not fail before a few other things were crapped out.
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after reading this thread, seems like perhaps I'm the only person here to actually have in my garage a 1.6TD industrial engine.
it came with a little plug like the early 16V's used, but I can't vouch for it being identical. I would imagine the gears are cut the other way. I dont actually have that part any more unfortunately.
I gave that plug/gear away (well, i swapped it) since I had no use for it. The one I gave away ended up being used on an industrial 1.6D, as it turned out.
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I recently discovered that I may have a 1.9 AAZ industrial engine. The rods are 150 mm long, the piston pins are 24 mm, and the pistons are about 6 mm shorter. Link to post http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32417.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32417.0)
I'm currently waiting for another block complete with pistons and rods from another member as finding OS "industrial" pistons has not turned out well (need to bore the block).
Don't know where it came from originally but I purchased the 82 westy in Northern CA and suspect it may have come from a forklift.
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after reading this thread, seems like perhaps I'm the only person here to actually have in my garage a 1.6TD industrial engine.
it came with a little plug like the early 16V's used, but I can't vouch for it being identical. I would imagine the gears are cut the other way. I dont actually have that part any more unfortunately.
I gave that plug/gear away (well, i swapped it) since I had no use for it. The one I gave away ended up being used on an industrial 1.6D, as it turned out.
its the same pieces, but different sizes..
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One of Jake's old posts on the subject of non-power brakes:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=12.0