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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Hoble on November 10, 2012, 01:43:16 pm
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I've been told my turbo choices won't make the power I am aiming for, 250whp would be ideal.
Current plans are to run a k03 and a large t3, 50 trim with a .48 ar.
I would like to boost pretty early and I'm only planning to rev to 6.
What do you think?
Lee
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the AR48 T3 on my 2.5 seems to make more heat than boost at 6000RPM/1BAR.
I might have more than 110HP, if it's cold out anyway.
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the AR48 T3 on my 2.5 seems to make more heat than boost at 6000RPM/1BAR.
I might have more than 110HP, if it's cold out anyway.
depends on what compressor is attached, but a 2.5 at 6k at 1 bar would be flowing quite a bit more than a stock wheeled .48 can flow, couple that with a compressor that can flow that much either, and yes u will make lots of heat and back pressure
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What would you recommend for turbos?
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Sorry for the book and please don't chew my head off. It all seemed relevant when I convinced myself to type it.
I cant help you with a small turbo but the larger one based on my (garrett's formulas) math you for 250 fwhp you would need the following. 34lb/min of air and a 3.2 pressure ratio. Looking thru their compressor maps the only two that are not in the surge or spun into orbit are the GTX2863R 63mm 56 trim .60A/R at a 73% efficiency or the GTX3067R 67mm 55 trim .60A/R at a similar 73% efficiency. That is based on ~30lbs of boost, .38bsfc, 1psi intercooler drop and my 5xx ft above sea level. I could only guess the small turbo would spool the larger on which opens a wastegate in the manifold to bypass the exhaust housing of the small turbo to get the max unrestricted flow to the larger turbo. This keeps the larger turbo out of surge until the motor can accept the flow. I have heard the small turbo is correctly sized for the stock motor where the large turbo is sized for max power. Granted this is all for a sequential setup, not a true compound. Managing drive pressure while running all of the exhaust flow thru the small turbos exhaust housing seems incredibly inefficient.
Check out this link for sizing formulas and general turbo tech.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/choosing_turbo
Yes his piping looks busy, but check out the routing and his explaination of operation. Granted its a different application but another small displacement motor making a lot of power on more than one turbo. One of Aki's builds had a setup similar to this (pipe routing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Me6yWApzY&feature=related
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Haha id rather someone type a book then give ***ty answers :P
I've actually seen that video before when I was researching the setup. My original turbo choices where made when the build was tight budget. Now it's not so much... And as for bypassing the turbo I have a 44mm tial. Actually have two. For first and second turbo
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Sorry for the book and please don't chew my head off. It all seemed relevant when I convinced myself to type it.
I cant help you with a small turbo but the larger one based on my (garrett's formulas) math you for 250 fwhp you would need the following. 34lb/min of air and a 3.2 pressure ratio. Looking thru their compressor maps the only two that are not in the surge or spun into orbit are the GTX2863R 63mm 56 trim .60A/R at a 73% efficiency or the GTX3067R 67mm 55 trim .60A/R at a similar 73% efficiency. That is based on ~30lbs of boost, .38bsfc, 1psi intercooler drop and my 5xx ft above sea level. I could only guess the small turbo would spool the larger on which opens a wastegate in the manifold to bypass the exhaust housing of the small turbo to get the max unrestricted flow to the larger turbo. This keeps the larger turbo out of surge until the motor can accept the flow. I have heard the small turbo is correctly sized for the stock motor where the large turbo is sized for max power. Granted this is all for a sequential setup, not a true compound. Managing drive pressure while running all of the exhaust flow thru the small turbos exhaust housing seems incredibly inefficient.
Check out this link for sizing formulas and general turbo tech.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/choosing_turbo
Yes his piping looks busy, but check out the routing and his explaination of operation. Granted its a different application but another small displacement motor making a lot of power on more than one turbo. One of Aki's builds had a setup similar to this (pipe routing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Me6yWApzY&feature=related
the small turbo compresses more so the larger turbo might only need to push 15psi into the small turbo which could then turn that to 30 psi so the surge line is not much of an issue. there are a ton of turbos that will work, just depends on cost and what u really want.
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How about some examples? I don't want to spend like 5 grand on turbos but I am willing to pay for quality gear that will last and meet/ exceed my needs.
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I can only really give suggestions I've never built one and very few people to be able to say what works, but on the cheap or used end for the small turbo a t25 off a Saab or volvo or a smaller Mitsubishi turbo off a Volvo or dsm would be ok and for the larger turbo a 60 trim .63 t3 from a ford 2.3 would be alright or a holset hx30. When it comes to new turbos there are so many different brands that each have a *** ton of options it's really hard to just suggest which ones the only thing I would say to look for is for a small turbo shoot for one that is capable of about 200hp for the large one shoot for one that's good for 300-400hp and I think going to the larger exhaust side is probably best because compound are going to spool faster anyway and a larger exhaust housing makes for a more efficient turbo
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I'm not looking for cheap but I'm not looking spend a fortune ether.
Thank you for that info. That has set me on a whole new research path.
I do have another question though. What is lb/min or kg/min? Is that equivalent to psi but over a period of time? Similar to kmph to km or mph to miles?
I am new to the turbo math and mapping stuff. No idea what half of what I'm looking at is.
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I'm not looking for cheap but I'm not looking spend a fortune ether.
Thank you for that info. That has set me on a whole new research path.
I do have another question though. What is lb/min or kg/min? Is that equivalent to psi but over a period of time? Similar to kmph to km or mph to miles?
I am new to the turbo math and mapping stuff. No idea what half of what I'm looking at is.
Psi and lbs/min kg/min are totally different measurements. Psi is a measure of pressure the others are a measure of mass flow. U can use formulas and do it yourself or u can use online turbo calculators to figure out the amount of psi u need to attain a certain mass flow to attain a certain hp goal
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Garrett's website has good write up on how to do it all
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When I ran the numbers I figured a 22:1 A/F ratio so I would not be smokey under boost. For an 18:1 A/F you could use a smaller turbo @ 28.5 lb/min at a 2.87 Pressure ratio, this would probably open up a lot more options.
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this is what i have come up with after a long night, admittedly most of it was trying to restore my iphone after it crashed but this seems to have turned out half decent (all this was done off the garrett site, made things easy)
small turbo: garrett GT2259
http://turbochargerspecs.blogspot.ca/2011/02/garrett-gt22-gt2259-52-trim-280-hp.html
big turbo: garrett GT3071R (1)
Pdf for the turbo: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/default_images/turbogroup/catalog_pdf/Garrett_GT3071R_700382-3_20.pdf
OR the slightly bigger gtx3071R (harder to find info on unless your on the garrett site but i cant link right to it from there)
(http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/default_images/turbogroup/performance_maps/700382-1&2&3turb.jpg)
(http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/sites/default/files/default_images/turbogroup/performance_maps/GTX3071R-comp.jpg)
Think those would work?
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Those are good choices but I think I'd go a bit smaller like a gt2056 for the small one and a gt2860 for the big but everything is a guestimation
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I was looking at the gt2056 and that's actually slightly bigger than the "big" turbo I was planning on running. And that's bigger than a stock t3. I'll be coming into boost pretty late with that setup. Big turbo wouldn't even spool till 6 grand in second.
I went for a drive in vrt with a 60 trim with a .60ar. That didn't come into boost till almost 4gs
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I was looking at the gt2056 and that's actually slightly bigger than the "big" turbo I was planning on running. And that's bigger than a stock t3. I'll be coming into boost pretty late with that setup. Big turbo wouldn't even spool till 6 grand in second.
I went for a drive in vrt with a 60 trim with a .60ar. That didn't come into boost till almost 4gs
A gt2056 is definitely smaller than any t3 dimensionally and everything it does flow more than quite a few t3s but it is definitely not bigger. If you rode in a vrt with a 60 trim I would almost garauntee it was t4 which is much bigger than a 60 trim t3, neither would work well on a 1.6 by itself, anyways the comparison is apples to oranges
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Oh I missed the actual size part. My bad. And yea I knew the comparison was off as its gas to diesel and I don't know much about the turbo itself. Just googled the gt2056 and an interesting site popped up.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=28551.0
Now the first post one the second page is what is actually interesting. This turbo spools faster than the t3. The small turbo will be only running around 15 psi and the big will be around 20 psi to get to 35psi total.
After work tomorrow ill look into the bigger turbo you had mentioned to figure out where I am going with that.
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justiz00: your assumption of a BSFC of 0.38 @ 6000RPM is just WAY off!!!
Stock 1.6TD had a BSCF of 0.52-0.53 at 4500RPM and it gets worse and worse as RPM increases. Modern turbochargers, porting etc. will improve this factor but you will never ever get a the magic number you've assumed. Also I think you have used a way too optimistic volumetric efficiency as that one also chokes at high RPMs.
Short summary: you need alot more pressure!
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Oh I missed the actual size part. My bad. And yea I knew the comparison was off as its gas to diesel and I don't know much about the turbo itself. Just googled the gt2056 and an interesting site popped up.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=28551.0
Now the first post one the second page is what is actually interesting. This turbo spools faster than the t3. The small turbo will be only running around 15 psi and the big will be around 20 psi to get to 35psi total.
After work tomorrow ill look into the bigger turbo you had mentioned to figure out where I am going with that.
if you keep reading the thread, he gets most of that resolved, he was running a tdi cam(which is crap) and a tdi intake(which is also crap) and if it was surging it had more to do with those 2 parts than anything else. But also in a compound setup surging would not be much of an issue. boost doesn't just stack like that either, if the small turbo does 15psi, you would only need about 10 psi on the large turbo to get 35.
i wondered when alcaid would be chiming in! like i said before tho i can only give you general ideas on what works, with out actually trying it its hard to say what actually works well and what does not.
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justiz00: your assumption of a BSFC of 0.38 @ 6000RPM is just WAY off!!!
Stock 1.6TD had a BSCF of 0.52-0.53 at 4500RPM and it gets worse and worse as RPM increases. Modern turbochargers, porting etc. will improve this factor but you will never ever get a the magic number you've assumed. Also I think you have used a way too optimistic volumetric efficiency as that one also chokes at high RPMs.
Short summary: you need alot more pressure!
Those were straight from garrett's formulas. I did not know the stock numbers. Yours will help everyone be more accurate in the future.
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Garrett's numbers are for (T)DI engines, they are more efficient than our IDI engines :(
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F-it Im going 2jz. Not really but these new numbers are not comforting.
50.41 lb/min (.55 bscf)
77 lbs of boost
6.89 PR
70% eff. with minimal pressure loss at filter and i/c.
:'(
Good luck hoble, Ill just settle with my build as a nice auto weekend cruiser.
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.45BSFC should be doable at 6000rpm with sequential setup (HP turbo bypassed at higher RPMs for higher efficiency and less back pressure) and a modern LP turbo. Also AFR can be a bit richer on the IDIs without smoke, 17-18 vs. 20-22 for the (T)DIs. These numbers are based on dyno experience, not just guessing. I will have a sequential setup ready for dyno spring time next year ;)
To actually make a lot og HP at 6000rpm requires a heavily modified pump!
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.45BSFC should be doable at 6000rpm with sequential setup (HP turbo bypassed at higher RPMs for higher efficiency and less back pressure) and a modern LP turbo. Also AFR can be a bit richer on the IDIs without smoke, 17-18 vs. 20-22 for the (T)DIs. These numbers are based on dyno experience, not just guessing. I will have a sequential setup ready for dyno spring time next year ;)
To actually make a lot og HP at 6000rpm requires a heavily modified pump!
Not to be contradictory, and only to raise conversation, i've been going over the 1.5d sae papers which has a graph showing the ve at over 90% until 4500 rpms where it swiftly drops off, and is well below 85% by 5000, it also has info on the bsfc but i haven't quite wrapped my brain around it yet.
http://home.comcast.net/~jakeru/15dsae.pdf
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Those are good choices but I think I'd go a bit smaller like a gt2056 for the small one and a gt2860 for the big but everything is a guestimation
those turbos seem a little bit on the large side..
the 2056 and 2256 are often run as large singles on these engines, with nice spool characteristics..
2056 is basically a big T3..
maybe an 1856 and a 2860?
im just thinking out loud.. he has a large wastegate to bypass the small turbine, so it shouldnt matter how much it flows up top..
we want quick spool on the bottom end..
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2056 is basically a big T3..
If you read the link at the top of the second page on page 2 it actually says the 2056 spools quicker that a stock t3. But I will look into that other turbo for sure.
And trevorbr, yea I'm not sure exactly how the compound boost pressures stacked up, I new they didn't multiply but adding didn't make sense ether. Basically I was going to start both turbos on a low psi and turn it up slowly and see where I got too. What I was saying with the psi numbers is that I want the big turbo to be running the majority of the pressure in the system as the small turbo compresses the atmospher given to it.
I know a lot of this is just guesstimation and I'm fine with that. It will probably be closer than my guess (as we figured out with the k03 and t3)
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2056 is basically a big T3..
If you read the link at the top of the second page on page 2 it actually says the 2056 spools quicker that a stock t3. But I will look into that other turbo for sure.
And trevorbr, yea I'm not sure exactly how the compound boost pressures stacked up, I new they didn't multiply but adding didn't make sense ether. Basically I was going to start both turbos on a low psi and turn it up slowly and see where I got too. What I was saying with the psi numbers is that I want the big turbo to be running the majority of the pressure in the system as the small turbo compresses the atmospher given to it.
I know a lot of this is just guesstimation and I'm fine with that. It will probably be closer than my guess (as we figured out with the k03 and t3)
i drive a 2056 EVERY DAY...
i know how they perform...
they spool up as slow as a T3.. promise you..
i think you should shoot for a midsized turbo, and a big turbo..
not a big turbo, and a bigger turbo..
if you size your turbos too large, its gonna be just like running one big laggy turbo...
sure, the second turbo will help to spool the first, but to what degree? its not going to turn a large, semi-laggy turbo into an insta-spooler...
im just saying that i experience turbo lag quite a bit with my 2056 on my 1.6D
and yes, a GT2056 is close in comparison to a larger T3 turbo...
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Conflicting info.
Can you find any info on the 1856 for me? I couldn't find anything useful
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Conflicting info.
Can you find any info on the 1856 for me? I couldn't find anything useful
i dont remember who ran that turbo, but it worked nicely he said..
dont remember what it came off of either..
maybe im thinking of something different.. this was a GT18 NON-VNT..
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Yea most of the stuff that came up was rebuilds for vnt turbos with that tagged in the list.
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i drive a 2056 EVERY DAY...
i know how they perform...
they spool up as slow as a T3.. promise you..
Is that with the vanes in a locked position? Doesn't sound right if you are running the VNT as it is supposed to run.
The Holset HE211W is close to a GT2056 in size, It's wastegated, and it spools up before the stoneage T3 and supports a lot more HP.
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2056 is basically a big T3..
If you read the link at the top of the second page on page 2 it actually says the 2056 spools quicker that a stock t3. But I will look into that other turbo for sure.
And trevorbr, yea I'm not sure exactly how the compound boost pressures stacked up, I new they didn't multiply but adding didn't make sense ether. Basically I was going to start both turbos on a low psi and turn it up slowly and see where I got too. What I was saying with the psi numbers is that I want the big turbo to be running the majority of the pressure in the system as the small turbo compresses the atmospher given to it.
I know a lot of this is just guesstimation and I'm fine with that. It will probably be closer than my guess (as we figured out with the k03 and t3)
i drive a 2056 EVERY DAY...
i know how they perform...
they spool up as slow as a T3.. promise you..
i think you should shoot for a midsized turbo, and a big turbo..
not a big turbo, and a bigger turbo..
if you size your turbos too large, its gonna be just like running one big laggy turbo...
sure, the second turbo will help to spool the first, but to what degree? its not going to turn a large, semi-laggy turbo into an insta-spooler...
im just saying that i experience turbo lag quite a bit with my 2056 on my 1.6D
and yes, a GT2056 is close in comparison to a larger T3 turbo...
its not comparable, yes you do have a gt2056 but its the vnt model which i am 99% sure came with a different compressor wheel, and obviously a completely different exhaust side. everyone else that has run a straight gt2056 says it spools up faster than the vw t3. it's also atleast 10% more efficient on the compressor side and probably 15-20% more so on the turbine side. the 2056 is not at all larger than a t3, the compressor and turbine wheels are both smaller, the name of it even means that it would classified as a t2, gt2056. it's just apples to oranges comparison to compare a gt2056v with an unsorted vnt actuator on a 1.6td to a gt2056 on an aaz in a compound setup. also from what i can tell a gt1856 is the same as a gt2056 but with a smaller exhaust side, it looks to have the same compressor. on the newer garrett stuff gt is the series, theres also gta gtb gtc gtx and i think a few more then the next 2 numbers have to do with the frame size and turbine 20, 22, 25, 28, and the next two are the exducer size of the compressor wheel.