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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Hoble on October 29, 2012, 07:20:52 pm
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bahhh go to buy new rods for my 1.6td build from rosten and there website is inactive. not sure if they are done or just down. just in case, who else makes good quality rods for a 1.6? im aiming for 200+ hp and more torque so id rather upgrade then blow a hole out the back of the block and have to buy new pistons and bore out another block.
Also, i am trying to figure out what to do for injectors. As far as i can tell i need to upgrade them to flow more. 35 psi is a lot for stock injectors
Thanks, Lee
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the stock rods are good for whatever power you can throw at them..
the HEAD is the weak point of these engines, as has been stated a couple million times 8)
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No need to upgrade the injectors--that's the beauty of the pintle nozzles. The injectors are capable of flowing crazy amounts of fuel in completely stock form.
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bahhh go to buy new rods for my 1.6td build from rosten and there website is inactive. not sure if they are done or just down. just in case, who else makes good quality rods for a 1.6? im aiming for 200+ hp and more torque so id rather upgrade then blow a hole out the back of the block and have to buy new pistons and bore out another block.
Also, i am trying to figure out what to do for injectors. As far as i can tell i need to upgrade them to flow more. 35 psi is a lot for stock injectors
Thanks, Lee
missed that part the first time around..
the injectors in the engine already are capable of flowing MORE FUEL than the engine would ever be capable of burning..
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the stock rods are good for whatever power you can throw at them..
the HEAD is the weak point of these engines, as has been stated a couple million times 8)
yea you are right about the head being the weak point, start warping at about 40psi (depends on turbo choices and such) but i have also watched a 1.9 walk the crack out of the block when he stepped on it. blew 4 blocks up before it would be cheaper to buy a girdle.
If the stock injectors are fine then why are the gtd ones bigger? and i have also heard people using mercadies injectors...?
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You'd only need the merc nozzle when you are getting up to BIG power, like near the 325 HP range. That's drag racer power, more than a performance street car needs. That's when you have a stack of heads ready for WHEN the head goes . . . again! Just make sure your stock nozzles flow correctly, and replace them if they don't or if the drip.
Put the money into your PUMP, not the NOZZLES!!
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I went with the Rostens, but they are still in the box on my slow build. Here are some other sites I found for rods. Rosten listed the dimensions so you could have compared them to the 1st page to match one. The second is listed specifically for 1.6td. Those are the only two I had bookmarked, there may be others.
Justice
http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/components/connecting-rods.htm
http://www.maxspeedingrods.com/parts/rods%20items/vw&audi/VW%20Golf%20Turbo%20Diesel%201.6%20Connecting%20Rods%20Conrods%20Rod%20Pleuel.htm
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Put the money into your PUMP, not the NOZZLES!!
Oh I already put money into my pump haha. Gave it to Giles and got him to rebuild it for 35 psi. He said ok an did his thing. 1600$ I have my pump.
I'm going to at least get my injectors rebuilt. But what about gtd ones?
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Nah, just get them rebuilt. The stock nozzles,as said, WILL hold up to an fuel you put through them. Addition of power fuel-wise, especially with a Giles pump, is better accomplished by the tuning of your fuel screw. :)
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I don't want to throw a wrench in as I don't know if it is anything or not. There is an obvious difference in the GTD and standard nozzles as Giles told me the price is almost 100.00 per GTD nozzle. My engine lost a precup and I was running more power than stock. I had regular nozzles. I do not know what the difference is or if there is any difference as the GTD was only making a few more hp than the regular TD mainly due to the intercooler. But if they are the same why would they cost 4x as much as regular nozzles? Do they offer a slightly better spray than our standard? I don't know, but VW being VW and over engineering everything I would think that they were thinking about it for the higher performance engine. I have thought of getting some GTD nozzles and doing an A to B comparison between the 2. To see if there is any change at all in performance to settle this once and for all, but around 400 just for the nozzles then to have them calibrated is out of my curiousity range. Maybe I will someday, if my cylinder head isn't going to be done until 2020 or something I may have time to save for them. I have a brand new set of standards ready, so I am 1/10th the way to doing it.
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Send Rosten an email: ge-roe [at] online [dot] no
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Stock 1,6 NA injectors are dyno proven up to 250+whp. Stock rods will bend with lots of low end torque, high hp does not. This has be seen several times. My friend had my old 1,6 NA rods in his gasser 6-cyl mercedes, those bend at 580hp/720nm ;D
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Stock 1,6 NA injectors are dyno proven up to 250+whp. Stock rods will bend with lots of low end torque, high hp does not. This has be seen several times. My friend had my old 1,6 NA rods in his gasser 6-cyl mercedes, those bend at 580hp/720nm ;D
OMG... these rods REALLY ARE tough as hell...
how many RPM do those rods see in the gasser @ 580hp?
the HEAD really is the weak point of these engines!
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~6000rpm, not much. I don't think head is weak point, I´ve never had any problems with head or gaskets, nor my friends..With 180-240whp IDIs...
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~6000rpm, not much. I don't think head is weak point, I´ve never had any problems with head or gaskets, nor my friends..With 180-240whp IDIs...
i think the head is just fine until about 300hp or so..
then it starts to FLEX..
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I'll talk to Giles and see what he says. And I really don't want to spend 570$ on new pistons and another 600 on new 1.9 head. I'm going to upgrade rods so stop telling me not too. I've seen them bend and I don't want to have to deal with it. It cost me less to do it know then when I'm at a track 200 km away and have to drive home.
These rods are good for high hp and power. Bad for low end torque. I will have a lot of low end torque.
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I'll talk to Giles and see what he says. And I really don't want to spend 570$ on new pistons and another 600 on new 1.9 head. I'm going to upgrade rods so stop telling me not too. I've seen them bend and I don't want to have to deal with it. It cost me less to do it know then when I'm at a track 200 km away and have to drive home.
These rods are good for high hp and power. Bad for low end torque. I will have a lot of low end torque.
how are you going to achieve that? compounds? big VNT? Nitrous?
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These rods are good for high hp and power. Bad for low end torque. I will have a lot of low end torque.
how are you going to achieve that? compounds? big VNT? Nitrous?
Compounds. K03 and a t3 with 50 trim and .48 ar. Water meth, water/air IC, cam, the whole 9 yards. im not skimping on anything
down the road i might do nitrous and propane injection but Ive heard your way more likely to blow your motor on propane. Also might go with a third bigger turbo down the road if i can figure out how to keep the head bolted down or convince my cnc friends at work to make me a steel head
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What T3 specifically are you planning to use?
A regular, old school Garrett product will not get you in the 200-hp range reliably.
It is possible, but those engines tend not to run very long..
Maybe consider a well-flowing modern turbo instead?
Just my 2p...
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...im not skimping on anything...
You are skimping on the turbochargers! Put in something useful instead of those stoneage turbos ;)
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...im not skimping on anything...
You are skimping on the turbochargers! Put in something useful instead of those stoneage turbos ;)
It's a brand new airesearch turbo. The t3 isn't a t3 ether, It's bigger. Old t3 is about a 35 or 40 trim and not sure ar but lower than .48. Mine is a 50 trim with a .48. It's what people use to make 250 hp out of these motors. Problem is getting them to spool. That's why I have the k03 there. And it's rebuilt.
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T3 50 trim producing 250hp on an IDI? BS!
27lbs/min (at best!) won't get you anywhere near 250hp...
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Well we will find out how it's works when I'm done.
And prove me wrong. Don't just tell me.
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on paper it is good for 250hp at the crank, in practice is another story, i think the possibility of breaking 200whp with it would be safe to assume for now tho, but 250 will take quite a bit more than 30psi. But certainly the scandinavians of the forum know far more of what actually works and what doesn't. I don't think i would put a ko3 from a tdi on any performance oriented engine.
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you are gonna need a seriously big external wastegate to bypass that K03 at high RPM..
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The pen and paper for my similar build was 250 crank hp, 34 lb/min at a 3.2 p/r. Boost was in the 30's. Not many turbos out there in that range. I don't know how it would work in a sequential setup(bypassing small one after spooling). Would the smaller turbo move the surge line to the left on the compressor map?
Garrett GTX2863 abd GTX3076, both are in the 73-74% range of the map as a single (on paper).
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Maybe 27lbs/min would give you 250 real bhp on a petrol engine but less on a TDI and even less than that on an IDI. I'll give you a couple hints: BSFC, AFR and VE. Read up, compare the different engines and consider what you learn to be the proof that you are making WILD claims.
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Lost me at compressor mapping...
The k03 is still up in the air. If I can find another turbo a little bigger then I will grab that instead. Like I have said before, this is my first true top to bottom build and I am expecting to go down a few wrong roads. If I have to changes things then I will. But as I am now I am basing things off of research I've done, what people have told me and sheer guessing.
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if your still looking for rods look at Pauter. They got some good stuff. That is what I am running in my Franken Engine. I bent the stock rods. 3 out of 4 were bent. So far with these not a problem.
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if your still looking for rods look at Pauter. They got some good stuff. That is what I am running in my Franken Engine. I bent the stock rods. 3 out of 4 were bent. So far with these not a problem.
yea i actually was just checking out that site today and sent off an email. how where they quality wise?
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Pauter's are supposed to be top-notch and very strong. They're "X beams", not "H-beams", so I don't think they receive as much attention since H-beams are all the rage. If I remember correctly, Pauter actually makes a set of 1.6 TD rods. Another highly respected name in rods is Carrillo. I think both Pauter and Carrillo are made in USA too. I'm pretty sure Rostens, Scats, Integrated Engineering, etc. are made in China, and then possibly machined in USA. Just sayin...
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Rostens are the only ones made to run the TDI rod bearings which are better than the IDI ones. You then also have the option of running the sputter bearings. There is a lot of high end TDI builds with Rostens and if their rods survive being beaten like that, they will live forever in 1.6TD (shorter rods and shorter stroke helps the rod take more abuse before bending/breaking)
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Rosten said at tdiclub theat his rods are forged in Japan... can't remember if they are finished in Japan or in Europe...
Just my $0.02
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Rosten said at tdiclub theat his rods are forged in Japan... can't remember if they are finished in Japan or in Europe...
Just my $0.02
You make it seem like being forged in Japan is a bad thing??
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No, not at all. I was just stating that rosten's rods are _not_ made in china
Ps: english is not my native language, sorry for any grammar / spelling errors.
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Forged in Japan is good. Most BBS wheels that are forged are forged in Japan. My point is we buy enough crap from China as it is. If we can get rods that are made somewhere else, that's a good thing.
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About the T3 turbos:
with a .48
...I had a similar turbo on a gasser Saab once, and it ran out of puff at 200 whp. On a gas engine.
Then I was able to squeeze out 240 whp with a .60 exhaust mated to a Trim50 T4 compressor side.
The turbine was getting tight at that time though.
The T3s really are not any good in today's terms, that's why all the car manufacturers ditched them in the
early 90's at the latest. In favor of T25s and the like.
If you want good power with reliability, why would you not want to invest in good turbochargers?
A Holset HX30 or a Garrett GT25 or GT28 would be much, much better.
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Rostens are the only ones made to run the TDI rod bearings which are better than the IDI ones. You then also have the option of running the sputter bearings. There is a lot of high end TDI builds with Rostens and if their rods survive being beaten like that, they will live forever in 1.6TD (shorter rods and shorter stroke helps the rod take more abuse before bending/breaking)
i thought a LONGER stroke and rod was easier on the rod, because of less extreme angles?
maybe its just the reduced piston speed with long rods..
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Rostens are the only ones made to run the TDI rod bearings which are better than the IDI ones. You then also have the option of running the sputter bearings. There is a lot of high end TDI builds with Rostens and if their rods survive being beaten like that, they will live forever in 1.6TD (shorter rods and shorter stroke helps the rod take more abuse before bending/breaking)
i thought a LONGER stroke and rod was easier on the rod, because of less extreme angles?
maybe its just the reduced piston speed with long rods..
Shorter stroke is safer, longer rod is safer
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longer rod is safer
Try breaking a pencil, now try breaking one half of it, was the long or the short one strongest? ;)
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longer rod is safer
Try breaking a pencil, now try breaking one half of it, was the long or the short one strongest? ;)
That is true as well and I won't disagree with it but longer rods when compared on 2 engines both with the same bore and stroke is safer because there rod angles are not as harsh, a common example is a stroked Chevy 350 engine the 383 it can be built 2 ways the one with longer rods is safer for more power and more revs
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alright since people hate my turbo choices, what would you recommend? im looking for low end boost and have full boost by 3-4 grand