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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TUFFY on September 25, 2012, 11:29:14 am
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Hello, I am new to site.
This is my 1.6 project for garden tractor pulling. It has a old Ford small inline six clutch, flywheel, bellhousing and 3 speed trans adapted to the 1.6. K26-6 turbo and water to air intercooler. long ways from being done yet though.
Tom
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Side view of engine. This is not the engine I am going to run. This is a old 11mm engine I am using to build tractor. I am working on a solid lifter 12mm 1.6 for it.
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You pulling tractor guys really amaze me. I have a friend running Bolens bodywork on a custom frame about the same size as yours with a gas turbine.
Make smoke!!!
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I don't know if the 1.6 will compete with what it will run against but it will be fun to try. I have to run against 2.3 turbo Fords, one has twin Honda goldwing motors on alcohol, another has two big snowmobile engines and stuff like that.
I can run up to a 2.4 diesel and two turbos if I want but I got a deal on two 1.6 VW's so I am going to try one. Going to port the heck out of a 1.6 head and see if it works. want to go to a T3-T4 hybred at some time also. Thinking of trying a inline pump if I can find a deal on one. Its a low budget project.
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I don't know if the 1.6 will compete with what it will run against but it will be fun to try. I have to run against 2.3 turbo Fords, one has twin Honda goldwing motors on alcohol, another has two big snowmobile engines and stuff like that.
I can run up to a 2.4 diesel and two turbos if I want but I got a deal on two 1.6 VW's so I am going to try one. Going to port the heck out of a 1.6 head and see if it works. want to go to a T3-T4 hybred at some time also. Thinking of trying a inline pump if I can find a deal on one. Its a low budget project.
i would start looking for a D24 volvo (VW) diesel engine..
they are an inline 6 engine.. sound just like a cummins engine..
and you will definitely want compound turbos if you are running against twin 1200cc alcy wing motors and turbo fords..
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My original plan was a D24 but they are hard to find in my area of the country. At least I could not come up with any.
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My original plan was a D24 but they are hard to find in my area of the country. At least I could not come up with any.
Just keep looking.. they are out there. just not super common...
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I also hear that the 2.2 Izusu is a tough engine and can make good power,,
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Hello, Anyone have a close guess on how much hp a 1.6 can make with a heavily ported 1.6 solid lifter head, a T3-T4 turbo, or the K26-6 turbo I have now, air to water intercooler, and intake and exhaust that is picture above? Will start out with a turned up 9mm pump and go from there.
I am talking hp at flywheel not wheels. Is 230/240 hp way to much to hope for? Its in a pulling tractor so not to worried if I have to wind it up to make boost.
I hope this isn't to dumb of a question lol.
Tom
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You pulling tractor guys really amaze me. I have a friend running Bolens bodywork on a custom frame about the same size as yours with a gas turbine.
Make smoke!!!
My Bolens pulls my 3200lb D24 car uphill in the dirt with the stock 11HP motor...Well it was 11 Hp 45 years ago anyway ;D
I wish it were diesel, but it works well enough I probably wont *** with it for a long time.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/DVC01257.jpg)
Best of luck with your pulling.
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I don't think the k26 will do that much, all the k26 compressor maps I have seen were no good for diesels because they aren't efficient at higher boost pressures, they might be able to flow the air you need but they can't do it at the pressure u need. To4e will probably do it, Dave did 195whp with one, I'd suggest a super 50 hard to find but it will work best on a 1.6 especially with an anti surge housing. I think 230 is possible since he did 195 with only a 9mm plunger
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I can run two turbos if I want to, but don't know what to use for turbos. I am limited to a 2" inducer on intake of turbo though.
I just want to get it together and running and work up from there. I got the 12mm block back the other day so I can start putting it together. I have arp studs for it. The short block will be stock to start with.
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I do have a good TO4 turbo off a larger diesel engine with a 2" inlet but I have no idea if there is a small enough exhaust housing for it so a 1.6 would spin it. I am looking for a used TO3 so I can make a T3/T4 turbo.
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I forgot to say I am going to have a tank with ice water and a pump for intercooler.
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I do have a good TO4 turbo off a larger diesel engine with a 2" inlet but I have no idea if there is a small enough exhaust housing for it so a 1.6 would spin it. I am looking for a used TO3 so I can make a T3/T4 turbo.
i would use that T4 in a compound setup..
run a T3 in front of it maybe..
a T3 and a T4 on a VW would be enough boost to blow the head sky high, under the wrong conditions..
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Wouldn't I still need a smaller exhaust housing on the TO4 even on a compound setup? The turbo is off a engine of probably 400 cubic inch or more. I don't know what housing is on it now.
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Also how much boost will a stock shortblock handle?
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Yeah I'd still try and stay on the big side of t3 stuff like a .63 since spool up shouldn't be as much of a problem ull have plenty of loading haha
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Hi, has anyone ever put a M.B. 240D inline pump on a 1.6 VW? Would that be a option for what I am doing? I would think the inline pump would give me a better pump than the VE pump.
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Andy2 has one on his compound 400+hp tdi, it is indeed a better pump, ive never seen one on a 1.6
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Hi, has anyone ever put a M.B. 240D inline pump on a 1.6 VW? Would that be a option for what I am doing? I would think the inline pump would give me a better pump than the VE pump.
the VE is good for ~200hp in STOCK trim..
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Yeah but those inline pumps allow for more revving, more fuel too but that's not really needed haha
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At what boost do I need stiffer intake valve springs? So boost don't hold open the valves.
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Hi, has anyone ever put a M.B. 240D inline pump on a 1.6 VW? Would that be a option for what I am doing? I would think the inline pump would give me a better pump than the VE pump.
the VE is good for ~200hp in STOCK trim..
Just a couple thoughts--
I don't think I've heard of anyone getting 200hp without a Giles pump, and I dunno if I'd call a Giles pump 'stock trim' ;).. provided we're talking about a 9mm pump, that is. I'm sure 200 is nothing for a 11 or 12m; heck, maybe even a 10mm pump. But you did say this was a low budget project, so I don't know if a 11 or 12mm pump would be outside the budget. If you're going to have to modify the VE significantly to get the fuel and rpm potential you want, then it just might be cheaper to find a merc pump, which would flow way more fuel than you could use, and rev higher to boot, right out of the box. Only obstacle would be finding one for reasonable, and then making it fit. I'm definitely going to yank the first one I see at my local pull-a-part; walking out the door with ANY injection pump for a measly $40 flat rate makes me feel like a professional thief ;D So far the only merc pumps I've seen are 300D pumps though >:(
If revs are the primary concern, while the inline pump will be able to turn more revs than the VE in stock configuration, this is true, I've also heard tell of people getting up to 7k out of the VE pumps, though, so don't count them out completely. Using beefier plunger return springs is the key, I believe. I, too, am dissatisfied with the low rev potential of the stock 1.6 IP--I'm working on modifying an 11mm plunger & springs to run with a 1.6 camplate; looking for over 6,500 to shut up some of my gasser buddies ;D.
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Hi, has anyone ever put a M.B. 240D inline pump on a 1.6 VW? Would that be a option for what I am doing? I would think the inline pump would give me a better pump than the VE pump.
the VE is good for ~200hp in STOCK trim..
Just a couple thoughts--
I don't think I've heard of anyone getting 200hp without a Giles pump, and I dunno if I'd call a Giles pump 'stock trim' ;).. provided we're talking about a 9mm pump, that is. I'm sure 200 is nothing for a 11 or 12m; heck, maybe even a 10mm pump. But you did say this was a low budget project, so I don't know if a 11 or 12mm pump would be outside the budget. If you're going to have to modify the VE significantly to get the fuel and rpm potential you want, then it just might be cheaper to find a merc pump, which would flow way more fuel than you could use, and rev higher to boot, right out of the box. Only obstacle would be finding one for reasonable, and then making it fit. I'm definitely going to yank the first one I see at my local pull-a-part; walking out the door with ANY injection pump for a measly $40 flat rate makes me feel like a professional thief ;D So far the only merc pumps I've seen are 300D pumps though >:(
If revs are the primary concern, while the inline pump will be able to turn more revs than the VE in stock configuration, this is true, I've also heard tell of people getting up to 7k out of the VE pumps, though, so don't count them out completely. Using beefier plunger return springs is the key, I believe. I, too, am dissatisfied with the low rev potential of the stock 1.6 IP--I'm working on modifying an 11mm plunger & springs to run with a 1.6 camplate; looking for over 6,500 to shut up some of my gasser buddies ;D.
everybody on this forum, whos been here a while, only needs to hear 2 words, and instant thoughts of 195hp (on a 9mm VW injection pump, mind you!) come to mind...
Dave Cross...
the mastermind behind Passenger Performance..
his special intake manifold, and i dont remember what turbo, but 195hp on a basically stock pump..
and you would have better luck trying to turn high RPMs with a 10mm plunger..
i doubt a 11mm plunger would turn that fast without seizing up, and breaking..
Jeremy knows a thing or 12 about how fast a plunger can spin before it commits suicide..
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Yep, read that thread, pretty sure that was indeed a Giles-powered hunk of solid awesomeness...I mean, unless he took it off later, which I don't recall being the case. I still stand by my belief that if Giles has touched it, it's gonna be waaaaay to schweet to be called anywthing close to stock ;). And yes, I want one, someday, when I can afford it :'(
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.30
Sigh, so I work a long day, 7 am to 9:30 pm, stoked I have a couple hours to work on my car, get everything hooked up ready to start it, no fab yet but wanted to hear it idle. No fuel at injectors... solenoid is sticky, put another used one in that worked fine, tested it in and out of the pump, its all good. Still no fuel to the injectors. Filled the pump, filter and lines with fuel, nothin.
I think the vanes have seized up from sitting for so long or something. This is Malones old Giles stage 4 pump from a couple years ago, only ran for a couple thousand km's, than stored with diesel fuel since than... Tomorrow night I'll steal my buddys hand pump from his outboard motor on his sailboat and get that on the inlet of the pump, dunno if its gonna help much. Damn really wanted it to fire tonight. :evil:
Anyone got any tips for freeing up sticky vanes?
Turbo is a big t3/t4.
Pump is a giles pump with 9mm head, plannin on gettin a bigger pump but want to get this up and running first to see how much more fuel I need.
Clip on timing cover is from mk2 td's
Not worried about the holes, I don't drive through 3ft deep of mud :o
What are ya meanin by momo's?
We'll see how the headgasket stuff goes, I am hoping with the extra porting, manifolds, bigger turbo etc, the hg issues will be less due to better flow and pressure distribution.
Yeah theres a lot of parts from different cars here
:lol: Thanks to all my friends like Mark, Erik, Brett, Keegan and all for helping out and donating trading parts etc!
The fittings on the manifold are for boost gauge, wastegate and lda like trevor said.
Black widow... I like it! black and red is one of my favorite color combos. I used to smash those spiders to bits when I was a little kid.
Power steering- already deleted 8)
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240D pumps show up on ebay for what I would call a decent buy it now prices, granted they are high mileage pumps.
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Hi again, If I do compound turbos can I use the Porche K26-6 turbo I have and use a TO4 as the big turbo? If it will work about what size exhaust housing would I need on the TO4?
I also have a banks turbo from a 6.2 GM diesel. Looks the same as a TO4 but has a much bigger than 2" inducer than I am limited to. I assume that exhuast housing would be to big also on a compound setup. I would have to dig out the turbo and see if the housing has any ID on it for size.
Also how would it be to keep the turbos spooled if RPM pulls down during a pull?
I have read the stuff on the car that made 195hp at wheels with small pump and T3/T4 turbo. That is what led me to this site. Lots of good info on this site.
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Banks turbo has a 1.00 exhaust AR
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Awesome project there. I'm building a 1.5 turbo VW diesel engine that's going into a Dodge Rampage, also for a racing application with a 1.5L displacement limit.
I also have a good bit of experience with MB diesels. Let me give you something to think about, with respect to the MB's. The 240D (OM616, I believe) engine is OK, but was phased out and replaced with the OM601, 602, and 603 series of engines which are lighter and more modern. These are the 2.2L 4 cyl, the 2.5L 5-cyl, and the 3.0L 6 cyl. These engines would have been in MB 190D's, and 300D 2.5T's from '84 to '95 (or so, depending on the models) in the USA. They were available in other models outside the US. These engines have a lot of performance potential - do a youtube search on OM602's in particular. They use the Bosch inline pumps, and with the right pump and turbo setups, can make many hundreds of HP. Your budget becomes the limiting factor. Later versions of the same engines use dual cams and 4 valves per cylinder. These are the OM605 and 606, and have even more performance potential. (again, not all engines were available in the USA)
I'm curious about the intake setup on your VW - can you share any more photos? Is it completely fabbed from steel?
SteveM.
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Yes intake is completely fabbed. I am not sure the down pipes are big enough though. The ID of the inside of the pipes is the same as the widest part of the 1.6 intake ports so when I port the head they port will be round where manifold goes on. Top pipe is 4" and I think the inlet pipe is 2 1/8".
The exhaust is a NA exhaust manifold turned upside down and a plate attached to mount turbo. There is a plate on top of a plate to mount the K26 turbo. If I take the extra plate off I have both T3 and T4 bolt patterns.
I am going to try and see if I can be competitive with the 1.6, if not then I will have to do something different. I want to make smoke though so it won't ever be a gas engine lol.
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My 6.2 doesn't really spool the Banks turbo till 3-4000 RPM, I don't think its going to help you much.
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Thats how my 6.2 was also,,
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Hi, I had the engine that is in the tractor in the pictures running on a stand last year. All stock probably not great shape engine. I am going to build a different engine for it.
I did the main spring gov mod and turned fuel screw in until it would want to hang a little when I backed off the throttle. I have another pump that sounded stronger with same mods but leaks fuel from O rings. I am going to fix and use that pump to start with.
With no load the turbo would make only about 6psi if I really wound up the motor. When I cranked on the throttle it would blow a big cloud of black smoke so its getting a fair amount of fuel.
I assume head porting would help spool the turbo better. What about a T3/T4 hybred turbo blowing into the K26-6 Porche 944 turbo? I am thinking the K26 is big enough on the hot side to not restrict flow at higher rpm. Or am I way off on my thinking?
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That could work I think k26-6 has a pretty small turbine housing but I'm not sure on that. It sounds like a decent setup depending on what t4 you have
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Can I start out with stock valve springs? Or will they be a problem?
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The stock valve springs will be ok until you increase the size of the valve head and have a ton of boost. For instance if you increase the valve diameter by 20% then you run 26psi of boost the spring will have to hold the valve closed and at that point *throwing #s out not doing the math right now* you may be at 10x the ammount of pressure than the stock TD would have been at. That would be trying to blow the valve open and when you would need to have the valve springs upgraded. I and many others have ran high 20s in the psi on stock valves and springs. One guy that used to blow up turbos like crazy used to run 37 or so, but quit doing it as he had a pile of turbos in his garage. So unless you go crazy there shouldn't be a need for an upgraded valve spring. At the point of cutting new seats and getting larger valves your machinist should recommend some options for springs at that time.
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Sounds good.
Is there a place online I can get the basic rebuild specs for a 1.6? Like bolt torque, bearing clearances and stuff like that.
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Bentley manual
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Thanks,,,
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Sounds good.
Is there a place online I can get the basic rebuild specs for a 1.6? Like bolt torque, bearing clearances and stuff like that.
http://www.race.nangreaves.com/golf/index.htm (http://www.race.nangreaves.com/golf/index.htm)
your welcome...
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Thanks for the help so far with all my questions.
One more quick question,,, is there enough valve seat in a 1.6 head to cut for 1.9 intake valves? Also are 1.9 intake valves a drop in after taking care of the seats? OK that is two questions sorry lol.
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Hi,
Is .004" piston clearance to much for what I am doing with this engine? I know its over wear limit spec. Engine don't have piston coolers by the way.
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I'd bore it to the next over size if the specs are out.
As far as 1.9 valve size is concerned, I'd just make it easy on yourself and get a 1.9 head. The Intake ports flow better than the 1.6 anyway. Bigger valves would be stretching the limit of the 1.6 head IMHO.
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I have a solid lifter engine so is it possible to put a 1.9 head on it?
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Yes it is possible to put a 1.9 head on a mech engine.
Many have said that the 1.9 ports flow better, but I have yet to see a flowbench of a 1.6 head with the 1.9 valves in it and a 1.9 flowbench with its appropriate valves. IMHO the 1.6 should flow just as well as the 1.9 with the bigger valves. . . To answer your question there is room on the seats for the 1.9 valves on the intake and exhaust as long as nothing is hurt to begin with.
If you are going to bore it, which if I were you I would, I would just add the squirters in you block at that time. It is just a bit of machine work and 4 squirters.
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The engine I am putting together came out of a 83 pickup but I think its a replacment engine from a sticker on the side of the block, also the block is black.
To me it looks like it is set up for sqiurters because there are plugs in threaded holes where they would go. I can try and take a good picture of it and post it.
Where can I get the squirters? Also would I need the bigger oil pump with them?
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Hello, I got a Holset H1C turbo from a 94 Cummins 4BTA 3.9L for free, Its in great shape and was wondering if it would work on a 1.6 VW?
But after some searching I found out it has a 16cm2 turbine housing. Is that way to big to spool on a tractor like I am building?
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Please tell the wheel sizes and A/R of that turbo. That it came originally on a 3.9 liter engine sounds about right for a tuned 1.6.
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H1c is a big turbo I don't think it ever came on a 4b but I could be wrong, it was more common on the earlier 6bt cummins found in dodge pick up trucks, it is basically the same as an hx35 just a bit older. I don't see it working well on a 1.6 even in compound, but I'd love to be wrong since They are cheap and plentiful
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Compressor wheel is about 43.5mm x 73mm with 7 blades. Turbine is about 60mm x 70mm. Turbo assy# is 3522900 serial# is H 284170. I have no idea on the AR number. They don't list it that way. It is off a 3.9 cummins I know that for sure. I can't read numbers on turbine housing anymore but looking up assy# says its a 3521927 turbine housing and is 16cm2.
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Maybe an hx30 then
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43.5mm is a good inducer size
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That compressor wheel is good as Trevbor said, should flow to about 200-250 hp.
That turbine wheel is huge. You will have spooling problems no matter what you do, other than feeding
it nitrous or running a compound setup.
Maybe you can get another turbine housing and wheel for it?
What is your power goal again? Fit that turbo with a ~ 50 - 52 mm exhaust exducer housing and wheel and you should have a good turbo for ~200-250 hp.
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Power goal is as much as I can get without spending tons of money lol.
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I am not set on using this turbo. Unless it might work on a compound setup as the second turbo?
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Are u sure that's the turbine wheel size? seems absolutely huge for the compressor. Same with that housing size
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I measured it with housings off and digital calipers.
I still want to find a T3 turbo to make a T3/T4 turbo. I found one for $200 but don't know what turbine housing is on it. Its from a small Allis Chalmers 4 cylinder, also don't know what shape it is really in. I want to get back there and check it out closer.
I have 3 TO4 turbos for compressor side but two of them are to big for our rules. can't be bigger than 2 inch at face of wheel.
I assume those cheap T3/T4 turbos on ebay are basically junk? Can they work if rebuilt with good bearings and thrust?
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I measured it with housings off and digital calipers.
I still want to find a T3 turbo to make a T3/T4 turbo. I found one for $200 but don't know what turbine housing is on it. Its from a small Allis Chalmers 4 cylinder, also don't know what shape it is really in. I want to get back there and check it out closer.
I have 3 TO4 turbos for compressor side but two of them are to big for our rules. can't be bigger than 2 inch at face of wheel.
I assume those cheap T3/T4 turbos on ebay are basically junk? Can they work if rebuilt with good bearings and thrust?
yes, they can be made to work if you rebuild them with garrett parts..
they still have casting flaws in the turbine wheel and shafts tho, so beware..
if it were me, i wouldnt use more than just the turbo housings off an ebay turbo.. seen too many horror stories from those..
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That is what I figured. Like anything else you get what you pay for I guess.
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Hi, I bought rings from Prothe on Ebay a while back before I seen all the stuff about how bad some of his stuff is. Should I put these rings in my pulling engine?
The first engine is going to basically be a low buck test engine to see if it will be competetive in the class. Not rebored or new pistons.
Tom
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Hello, This is my block, is it machined for squirters already?
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Here is my steel flywheel for my tractor,,,
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back view,,
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Yup, that's machined for squirters. I've seen that once before on a non-turbo block about 12 years ago. Out of curiosity, what's the engine block code?
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Yup, that's machined for squirters. I've seen that once before on a non-turbo block about 12 years ago. Out of curiosity, what's the engine block code?
I don't know the numbers off hand. Next time I work on it I will get them.