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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: One_punchmachinegun on July 12, 2012, 05:01:21 pm
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Ok, So i was driving to work today and everything seemed good, I got to work, parked the car and got out and smelled coolant. I looked under and nothing, so i popped the hood and took a peek, and it looked like a blood bath in the engine bay. There was this pastey stuff all over everything that obliviously came from the Radiator. I Didnt know what to make of it at the moment plus i was late so i just shut the hood and walked away.
Then i went back out on my first break to investigate a little more. I pulled the rad cap off and there was a mud(brown) substance in there and around. Its pretty thick stuff, But foamy. I didnt see any actual coolant looking down the rad. I dont know what to make of it. I dont understand what could cause this... Please let me know
Thank you
Tim
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Sounds like a head gasket. The sludge is a mixture of oil and coolant, and it sounds like it built pressure in the coolant system, blowing a hose or something and spraying the concoction about the engine bay. Fun... Just finishing up replacing my head and gasket, good luck getting it fixed.
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What does the oil look like?
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Oh no Tim!
That is just the luck.. You will probably find that the oil level is down, as it is more than likely (was) in your coolant.. which is now on your engine :(.
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Although leaking oil and tranny coolers can also produce said sludge, and are worth checking.
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I check the oil and it is perfect no issue there... I just did a fresh oil change today and it is the same as when i did the change, no milking sludge on the oil cap either.
Ok so the engine is a mechanical one, and it does have a MLS headgasket with the two oil drain holes. Was plugged, but do you think this is the issue?
I'm not to worried about replacing the head gasket if that is the case, i perfer not to ;D I just dont want this car down again. Plus my wifes car just blow a heater core! :(
Head gasket options if that is the case. What is the best fiber gaskets you can get? I would go for the MLS gasket with the sigle hole, but not in for the wait.
And i want to be able to push 25psi if i feel like it.
^ this is all if that is the case
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Also, correct me if im wrong but i though that the mixture between oil and coolant make a milkly,thick, white-ish color mixture. This stuff is like rust colored.
DO i attempt to drive it home? i dont live that far.. and 14 miles. IT was Not over heating either. So??? No white smoke out the exhaust either, Thats where im confused with the head gasket.... I lack other symtoms.
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I am guessing but it could be years of radiator stop leak finally letting go. HG and oil cooler are good things to check as those mentioned.
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If the coolant is full, of something. It wasn't over heating, and there was no smoke. I personally would drive it home. It could get bad from there..
Here si a good question, What year is the engine being that it is mechanical? Does it have metal coolant flanges on the head or plastic?
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hmmm, a bad coolant bottle or cap can blow a bunch out when you park sometimes.
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it is plastic. i switched it over to fit my MK2 wireharness without issue.
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Yes, but the cap was bandnew. But the big concern is the pastey stuff. I was running just water for a little while then just added coolant today also. Could that cause it. It seems that it has to be some type of chemical reaction.
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Let me propose this: Coolant/water/some sort of prior radiator treatment + Air. Froth it up with a little head gasket air infeed and or an air bubble from heater core not full when system refilled. Now drive on that and produce a thick gooey mass of slime being asked to remove heat from the engine. Not efficient enough so temp and pressure build. Not going to show heat because air in foam won't let gauge do its work. Finally the pressure on the cap or a hose lets go and Kabluey you got radiator puke all over the engine bay.
I worked in a place where we did radiator repairs as well as AC installs. That corner of the building produced some awful smells, slimes and critters we called aliens. Back flushing them bad boys was an incredibly disgusting task.
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So you are saying that there is a chance that i was over-heating?
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Yes, and in doing so when you add air to it all some sort of goo was coming out of the head, the heater core and or the radiator. Got it all slimey inside. Basically you just hot tanked your engine clean. If it was running pretty well I would be suspect of a head gasket. Compression test would tell you that easy enough. Your oil was clean so that is why I am putting down the clean of coolant system theory here. A good flush of the system when warm might do wonders for all parts concerned.
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Sometimes 2 different kinds/colors of antifreeze mixed in the system, can cause brown sludge.
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Could older coolant do this, im really at a loss of what is going on. I drove home after work and temp did not spike up at all, got home and my radiator threw up again. I do have a picture
Under all the stuff there is water/coolant.
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m571/TimmothyMelcher1/IMG_6695.jpg)
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Wow, that's scary.
Regardless of the cause, you need the rad out and cleaned/pressure tested, and a lot of really nasty, messy, annoying flushing of the entire cooling system.
Then good water and good coolant.
Prior to that you need to be sure the HG isn't leaking. I'm not sure where I'd start on that score with that mess already made.
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If you are sure you didnt have any problems when it was just water, (unless you didnt notice when the rad threw up as it all evaporates)? Then i would do the following as a test.
You say you are only 14 miles from home to work so should be ok.
1. back flush the rad and coolant system to remove as much ( preferably all) of the brown sludge as possible. I personally take the thermostat out too to allow full cleaning, remember to turn the heater to hot too.
2. fill with clean water to the correct mark.
3. drive to work and open bonnet to see if anything has let go.
4. before driving home that evening check if you have lost any water.
I am going to guess that the new cap went on the car when you added the antifreeze and that it you had the old one on with plain water?
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Start Packing a couple of gallons of water with you. I suspect that once you back flush this baby you might find a leak in the radiator or the heater core. Going to have to add extra time to and from work to allow for floor and engine checks and possibly topping off the system.
I wonder if when on water the old cap just let air come and go and never allowed the system to get under pressure. Now that it is something is a miss.
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Or when he put coolant in it the block ran that little bit hotter and cooked off the rust/contaminants into that mess he has. I have seen mixing coolants and that Radiator stop leak look about identical to what he has going on there. That stop leak looks like that if you run about 5 bottles of the stuff...friend of mine just keeps adding it until the leak goes away, which I don't think it ever does. It just gets to where that is about all that is in the rad at that point.
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holy crap, after using a dirty mud puddle for coolant, the crap i saw wasnt that nasty even..
i believe lucas has used beer, mud puddle, bodily fluids, and a few other things as well..
gotta love wheelers!
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Update, made it home and flushed it this morning, A lot of crud came out, got it clear, but in the hoses and flanges the stuff is coating the walls. So i got as clean as i could, then filled it up with just water to run it and see what happens. I did some spirited driving trying to make sure it got to temp then came home and checked the fluid. It did take a very little bit but nothing concerning. But the sludge seems like it wants to come back, Little biuld up. So i took a spoon full of it and started trying to figure out what it is... Now it does seem like some type of minerals that have rusted, once you get all the little tiny bubbles to pop, it is this fine mineral texture. I would say that there is some rust and some type of fine black metal or possible rock. But what makes me confused is why does it turn into this foamy stuff? could it be heat and some type of chemical reaction?
Thanks all for your comments and concerns ;D
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dump some simple green, dawn, or powdered dish soap into your cooling system.. you need to try and break down that crap and get it out of there..
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We had some nasty stuff in our coolant lines when we got our car. No clue what it was. Didn't get foamy, but it was thicker and pretty nasty. Replaced all coolant hoses and coolant bottle. Even had the car on a coolant exchanger to get everything cleared out. Still got brown. Not sure the culprit in the end as we did a full rebuild and no issues then. But there was a lot of crud in the coolant passages in the engine. Even after hot tanking, we still had to clean them out with compressed air. Clogged up our head gasket a bit too. I'd be really careful running the car with that stuff in there. Clean it out as good as you can.
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holy crap, after using a dirty mud puddle for coolant, the crap i saw wasnt that nasty even..
Reminds me of the night I got caught trying to refill, and the cops accused me of dumping. They made me sit on the curb in the dark for 40 minutes while they figured out my car really was dry of coolant, and I was filtering muck water though a dirty sock. Took 5 of the suckers to figure it out too. They advised me not to put that in my engine...like what, sit around waiting for it to rain???
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We had some nasty stuff in our coolant lines when we got our car. No clue what it was. Didn't get foamy, but it was thicker and pretty nasty. Replaced all coolant hoses and coolant bottle. Even had the car on a coolant exchanger to get everything cleared out. Still got brown. Not sure the culprit in the end as we did a full rebuild and no issues then. But there was a lot of crud in the coolant passages in the engine. Even after hot tanking, we still had to clean them out with compressed air. Clogged up our head gasket a bit too. I'd be really careful running the car with that stuff in there. Clean it out as good as you can.
around the cylinders (in the engine block) is where the water moves slowest, so thats where most of the sediment ends up.
it doesnt take much at all to turn a VW cooling system brown.. using straight water is the best way to make it brown.
as for cleaning everything out, i would take the thermostat out, and back flush the hell out of the block..
i imagine your radiator may be clogged after running that brown goop thru it..
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holy crap, after using a dirty mud puddle for coolant, the crap i saw wasnt that nasty even..
i believe lucas has used beer, mud puddle, bodily fluids, and a few other things as well..
gotta love wheelers!
Yep, more than one in there.
Good luck guy. I suggest using the .99 cents per gallon distilled water at the grocery store when you get it sorted. I was amazed at how well bodily fluids and beer make for a coolant. But even more amazed at the clean coolant after my last build when I used the distilled water. Crystal.
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Ok Class how about we do a chemistry project here to clean that sucker out?
Oh geez now what is he going to come up with?
I am leaning towards the rust from the block while using water and some sort of radiator stop leak, lots of it to solve a gasket problem. Being that the block is metal and this junk is settled on it we might have success with the same sort of fluid we clean our coffee maker with.
Yepper, simple vinegar. Mix up a quart of that in a gallon of water and see what you get after running on it for a warm up. I liked the Dawn Idea too but I would go that carefully after the acid wash. You could even throw in some baking soda in that mix (a couple ounces) to neutralize the prior acid wash if you wanted.
I think that is what that high priced radiator flush is, so why not just do it on the cheap.
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Radiator flush is vinegar or baking soda?
Maybe make a solution of distiller water and CLR. Let the engine come up to temperature for a bit and shut it down. I'm not sure I'd want to leave it in there that long, but it should be able to descale everything. Of course you'd need to be forward and back flushing everything.
-Todd
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ORCoaster-vinegar yes old school good tip.
I use 150 gr of limun acid(I can`t find name on Wiki or translate) it`s white powder used in cooking,drive at min 100 km and out.But I put 250 gr in 6 lit coalant and it`s clean,after only some 19 yr old steel pipe start to leak,I find that good also.
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this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid
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Thank you guys, the first flush went well, and to i will be doing again today, the stuff is nasty. So you guys say about a quart of vinigar then run it to running temp and flush again, But will have to wait till it cools down?
Also the rad cap was shot.. it was new but still failed on me luckly i had been sent a free one with the original that i had bought, good thing that it failed though be cause i would have had no idea that that stuff was in there.
Thanks again. ;)
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Once you flush it and button it back up again it should not be a problem to refill and rewarm. Your problem now might be explaining to those around the car why it smells like pickles.
A new cap failed? What the heck is with that nonsense?
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Ok so flushed and flushed again, i got A LOT more nastly stuff out. The vinegar seemed to help too. I got it to the point that there is clear water coming out :D. Thank you all. I still flush it a few more times to make sure its good to go. On another note just got all my 3" exhaust pieces cut up ready to be welded. Side exit 8)
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this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid
Look like yes.
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just remember, there is LOTS of aluminum in the cooling system.
usually the radiator, the heater core, and a few other things.. very light duty aluminum..
ACID EATS THE HELL OUT OF ALUMINUM.. if you use vinegar, ONLY use it in the engine block its self. i would not let the vinegar get to the radiator or heater core, unless you feel like replacing them in the near future.
ive personally used dawn and powder dish detergent more than a few times. its SAFE..
the CHEAPO radiator flush is not vinegar, or baking soda. its a cleaner with a WEAK acid in it. it feels the same as ZEP-alum when you get it on your hands (it burns like hell) radiator flush cleans wheels pretty good as well.. lol..
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Hey while you're at it:
pull the heater hoses and flush the heater core both ways,.. that's where the thin passageways are.
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Update,^(I did do that. I made sure to flush it all the best that i could) Coolant is clean(er). Have been driving it daily to temp with distilled water and antifreeze and so far so good. So it was just some type of build up that just made a mess of everything. But I thank you all for your advise, opinions and concerns.
Tim
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ANother old tip.I use fuel filter as fine polish,anythere you like it/eazy made.
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ACID EATS THE HELL OUT OF ALUMINUM..
I can testify to that. In the MB diesel world the drug of choice for this sort of thing is citric acid. I used that to flush my nasty Cabriolet when i got it, and just installed a brand new radiator. I figured I would let it sit overnight. Next day, I had holes in my radiator.
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ACID EATS THE HELL OUT OF ALUMINUM..
I can testify to that. In the MB diesel world the drug of choice for this sort of thing is citric acid. I used that to flush my nasty Cabriolet when i got it, and just installed a brand new radiator. I figured I would let it sit overnight. Next day, I had holes in my radiator.
and that was a BRAND NEW radiator..
if you get lucky, and you have an OLD COPPER radiator, you might get lucky, but i wouldnt chance it.
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So we learn not to use strong acids, Citric acid is about ten times stronger than Acetic. pH of 2.2 compared to 3.2, and we know to dilute, fill, run to warm and backflush several times.
I didn't think anyone would be running the vinegar for more than a half an hour when I suggested it. I was thinking a driveway operation not a drive for days deal.
Glad to have helped clean it out. Should be good for several years now.
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^ this is what was done, I did not let it sit over night or even run it like that for a day knowing the acidic quality that vinegar does have. But i ran it for about 15 mins, then drained and flushed with fresh water. Then repeated two times. And made sure to get all of it out. I still flushed for several days after running it, to get the gunk and vinegar out for sure. It seemed to do the trick.
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Thats good news.
Glad its fixed.