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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: One_punchmachinegun on April 30, 2012, 01:05:06 pm
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OK so i just threw this Td into my car and everything went well while installing. Now as i reached the point of starting the car. Double checked everything. So I tried to start it and it just wont go. It turns over, seems like its going to go but never fires up. Now i thought that it was fuel. so i checked if i was getting fuel and i am. I dont know what going on.
please help.
Any ideas just post them up thanks.
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If it's a known good motor then I'd start with timin. If yer dial indicator reads inches but you are reading millimeters it can be tough to get started, and smoke big white when it does.
Did you fool with the belt at all? Or just drop and go?
Maybe off a tooth, or wrong dial indicator reading. From there it gets Grey.. Could be anything. Would rig a jerry can for further attempts @ starting
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No it was just a drop and go, Now after reading a wee little bit, ive noticed that people with similar problems have smoke and such, I have none of that. I would think that there would be smoke if cranking and fuel being add...but there isnt. :'(
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It was a drop and go, but did it run before?? If it did then there is not really much that it could be.
If you have no idea whether it ran, and you are getting fuel at the injectors.. then it could be lots.
So which is it? Ran before or not?
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It did run. So im told and i would like to start on that. Once i get off work im going to double check timing. Its wierd it seems like its going to start, feels like and sounds like it. It seems as its not getting fuel, but every line is full of diesel. I want to see if the pump was pulling fuel so i hooked the line up to a clear jug and it was taking fuel. now after a little while of typing the line started to push some of the fuel back out of the line like there was preasure built up. I dont know if that helps you help me. :-\
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Ugh, I hate taking peoples word on "ran fine when I pulled it" type of deals.. lol
Well if the pump is physically taking fuel in, then that is at least a starting point. Are the metal lines going to the injectors also full of fuel?
Try this. With the ignition in the on/run position open the hood. Remove the small spade connector on the end of the pump above the metal injection lines. You should hear a click as you remove it, touch it on and off a couple times and listen for an audible "click". If it is clicking then proceed to my next "try this".
Try this. If you leave the four injector lines loose at the injectors and try and crank the car does fuel dribble/spray out of the lines?
Try this. If both those tests check out then we have pressurized fuel leaving the injection pump, and the engine should fire. There is no restriction on the air paths of these things so air is not really a factor, unless it is completely clogged. So you could remove the air filter to be sure it is not causing air restriction.
Are your glow plugs working? Better question where are you located and what temperature is it there? (Which by the way I would like you to update your profile at your earliest convenience with your car and location please)
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Double check power to the glow plugs?
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glow plugs are working and really done feel that its cold enough for that to make, Im located in PA,USA. So you want me to test the shut off solenoid?
The line do have fluid, i will check four when i get home.
Now another thing i just remembered is when cranking at the IP there is a tick...tick...tick...tick noise, doesnt seem to be coming from the injectors, but the IP and it has pauses like the, and its a single tick that is consistent..
ok so lets say that all of those are correct what are the possiblities then, should i just replace the IP, i have one just laying around
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i think the most concerning thing is that there is no smoke. What so ever. I actually only have a DP on and in the garage so if there was any little bit i would know it. But None.
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No smoke = No fuel..
Check the injector lines and the solenoid. It is common.
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What if i unplug my solenoid will it start then, What part does the solenoid play it fueling?
EDIT:
Disreguard this. I Think this is the problem. Im an idoit. >:(
Shut off solenoid is not hooked up.... pure idiocy
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If you take the soleniod out and start it will start and run, but leak diesel out the hole. If you take the plunger out and put the top of the soleniod in it will run and not leak fuel everywhere. The only way to stop it quickly is to stall it at that point, so be aware.
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Does the solenoid prevent fuel from going into the lines?
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Does the solenoid prevent fuel from going into the lines?
Yessir it does, ;). It is the mechanical shut off of the pump, controlled by low amperage 12v at the plunger connection.
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Depends. If it is working or not...if it is charged or not. IIRC default position is shut off diesel.
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ARRGG!! I was so upset today, I almost went on a cursing rampage. haha. Man feeling pretty good right now, just can't wait to find out whats next on the list that i'll have to post a question about. Haha ::) well thanks guys( 8v-of-fury, theman53, Thezorn) there is a possiblity there will be more questions. ;D
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I have some great advice for you for the future. :)
There is no new problem lol, so I suggest that before making 23.5 different threads you make use of the somewhat excellent search function that this forum offers. Generally the posts are named with what you would have used for a thread, so you should be able to find what you are looking for. Not that posting threads is bad, it is a forum after all.
They are quite the beast to fully learn. I have been pretty heavy in to them for a few years now (maintain a fleet of 5 daily drivers).. and I am still learning.
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^^^ Lol 23.5 threads lol
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Ok so there is only fuel coming out of line 3, the rest have nothing coming out. :-\
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Tighten line 3 and continue cranking till the rest have fuel dripping out and tighten as this happens. I find usually if two are dripping and I tighten them I can generally start it with one cycle of the glow plugs. Of course it will miss until the all are tightened down. You should definitely see smoke at this point.
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ok, so no smoke and no fuel out of the rest of the lines, i think i found the problem, i believe there was a leak on IP, top bolt on the bracket that the cold start connects to, it would push out and leak fuel so i this that was preventing preasure to build up enough to push through the injectors. I'm just assuming as of right now not to sure. The bolt wont tighten either. every time i try to crank it, it pushes back out... Sould i swap the Ip? :-\
Ok so if that doesnt work, and fuel is being suplied and still no smoke whats next? not enough preasure to burn the fuel? Timing? Timing is on tho, did go over that.
???
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You could always take all the lines off and check to see if fuel is being shot out of the delivery valves right at the pump, possibley clogged injector lines to two cylinders, but not likely.
If not then all if could be is internal pump problems, and that stuff is way over my head personally haha.
Good luck
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I swaped out the IP, It was going to leak fuel regardless, so i threw on my N/a pump. I KNOW that one works. I am going to go through the timing steps without belt on.. Then try again, hopefully it works. What if its not the pump and timing. Whats next could it be that the head bolts arent tight enough? throwing off compression ratios, not let it to burn off fuel?
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If you don't have fuel then it is foolish to think compression. If you had fuel that would be different. I have been able to at least start a car when warm out with timing retarded and advanced as far as .80 to 1.29 mm. They had different performances but it started.
If you get fuel then you should look on to other things.
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....................... I am going to go through the timing steps without belt on..
Please don't do that! The belt has to be on when you doing timing adjustments.
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....................... I am going to go through the timing steps without belt on..
Please don't do that! The belt has to be on when you doing timing adjustments.
Im going to lock everything in place and make adjustments if needed. If i was to take everything to TDC i wouldnt need timing belt on? correct. That was what i was planning on doing. taking it to absolute center for flywheel and so on.. Thats how you would do if you just did a entire rebuild.
Also what is the spec that the head bolts have to be torqued to?
Thank you guys for working with me.
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....................... I am going to go through the timing steps without belt on..
Please don't do that! The belt has to be on when you doing timing adjustments.
Im going to lock everything in place and make adjustments if needed. If i was to take everything to TDC i wouldnt need timing belt on? correct. That was what i was planning on doing. taking it to absolute center for flywheel and so on.. Thats how you would do if you just did a entire rebuild.
Also what is the spec that the head bolts have to be torqued to?
Thank you guys for working with me.
44 ft lbs + 2 quarter turns
torque all to 30 ft lbs, then 44, then add a quarter turn, then add ANOTHER quarter turn..
as for the timing belt being off. why are you trying to mess around with your engine with no belt on it? unless there is some reason as to why YOU CANT set things up with the belt, then put the damn thing on there, and time it properly.
the belt keeps everything relative.. the crank will move from TDC just by shaking the car too much.. the cam has a lock plate, and the pump has a lock pin, but still.. whats your reasoning for needing the belt off to time the engine?
we all time our engines with the BELT ON.. it makes it MUCH EASIER.
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....................... I am going to go through the timing steps without belt on..
Please don't do that! The belt has to be on when you doing timing adjustments.
Im going to lock everything in place and make adjustments if needed. If i was to take everything to TDC i wouldnt need timing belt on? correct. That was what i was planning on doing. taking it to absolute center for flywheel and so on.. Thats how you would do if you just did a entire rebuild.
Also what is the spec that the head bolts have to be torqued to?
Thank you guys for working with me.
The position of the cogs of the timing belt when the crank is at TDC are the reference for the timing of the pump and cam sprocket. Machined difference in crank line bore, the machined positions of the pump mounting bracket, the positioning of the pump bracket onto the block and variances in manufacturing of the timing belt itself can all change the relative position of the pump when timed properly. There is nothing wrong with placing the lock pin in the pump sprocket and the cam plate in place. That is the first step in installing the belt, but that is not "timing the engine". Trying to determine the position of the pump in the pump bracket and the position of the cam sprocket relative the cam is what would be called "timing the engine" and those steps can ONLY be performed successfully with the belt in place.
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Ok, if TDC is lined up and the cam/ pump off, then to correct them to TDC then belt would have to come off in order to make a adjustment. Correct? The only reason the belt is off as of right now it is that i replaced the pump. Cam has been locked. But if your saying that the TDC can be thrown off by just a bump of the car? So then i'll have to set it either way just from the fact i took the belt off and replaced the pump. ???
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"the flywheel bolts aren't all symmetrically drilled so you can only put it on one way"
Is this statement True?
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"the flywheel bolts aren't all symmetrically drilled so you can only put it on one way"
Is this statement True?
One hole is offset on the flywheel. One is slightly closer or further from the next so it can only be bolted on in one correct possition.
Realistcally you can leave the belt on or take it off to set the timing. Ive had it off, locked all my timing, put the belt on, then double checked everything and made adjustments if nessesary, you can also lock the cam and pump, wrap the belt around the crank witch is set at TDC, then the pump, and then with the cam sprocket loose ut it on the cam and again double check everything. Dont forget to tighten down the cam bolt after also, it is 60 ft lbs I beleive but Id have to double check the bentley.
How I see it is you can play around with your engine with no belt on it as much as you want to, go ahead and turn the crank by hand untill it touches a valve, nothing is going to happen. The force that you can put into turning the crank by hand or even a wrench is in no way enough to damage anything. But to each thier own.
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this is also a mechanical head, i was always led to believe that its a NON-interference engine. And that if the belt snaps it wouldnt even bend valves. :-\
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Ok, if TDC is lined up and the cam/ pump off, then to correct them to TDC then belt would have to come off in order to make a adjustment. Correct? The only reason the belt is off as of right now it is that i replaced the pump. Cam has been locked. But if your saying that the TDC can be thrown off by just a bump of the car? So then i'll have to set it either way just from the fact i took the belt off and replaced the pump. ???
The belt does *not* have to be removed to adjust the timing of the cam or injection pump. You will need to confirm that the crank is at TDC, the cam sprocket is loose/snug and the pin is in the injection pump in order to install the belt on the correct teeth of the various sprockets, but that is not timing the pump or cam. Timing of the cam is done by rotating the crank CCW a small bit and then back to TDC without passing it so all the slack is in the tensioner area, setting the belt tension and then torquing the cam sprocket. Pump timing is done by installing a dial indicator to read the pump plunger lift and setting the amount of lift @ TDC to the specification by rotating the pump body in the bracket. As I said before, neither of the timing procedures can be done without the belt in place.
These engines are EXTREME interference. If the cam is off a tooth the valves will usually hit the pistons.
The flywheel can only be installed one way provided the pins are indexed into the holes correctly. I have personally seen two flywheel that were installed by other people where two pins lined up and the third was not and it just got mashed in when the flywheel was bolted on. The pressure plate can be bolted to the crank six different ways if someone leaves out a bolt (yes, there are people that stupid who work on cars...).
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Well thank you for clarifying that, about the mechanical head.
And i will make sure to go to/ that it is at TDC and time everything according.
Like i said before the only reason i took the belt off was do to the pump needing to be replaced. Was not my first option.
Once again Thank you guys for every bit of input. It is much appreciated, and hopefully one day i will return the favor.
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Ok so next question, Egt gauge.. i know this topic has been covered of multiple occasions, But i can't seem to find this question answered.
http://www.egauges.com/pdf/vdo/0-515-012-075.pdf
In this link there are instructions to installing a Egt Gauge, Now this is self explanatory, All i was wondering is where to hook up the positve wire to "switch" in the diagram, the "switch" would be ignition/key, Now where to hook up is said to be both after the fusebox and after the ignition or other switch, so now I'm confused to where they are saying to put this positive wire, maybe my brain just isnt making sense of it. but where can i just attach it to the ignition power wire after fusebox(one that travels to steering column)
On the original subject belt is back on car and is timed properly, all that needs to be timed it the IP, But all lines on sprocket, mounting bracket, and Ip line up. So would assume that its on Timing. Let me know if thats correct also, Or is further timing steps needed?
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Having the cam set at TDC, the crank at TDC, and the pump set with the line at the top and a pin in the pulley means that you are in the zone of what will run.
At this point you can leave all the Pump bolts loose except for the front top one, get the pump primed and engine running off of where it sits right now. Once you get it running and while it is running, you can then loosen that one 13mm bolt holding the ip in place and move it back or forth depending on what makes it run better with little to no clack-clack.
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Thank you. Then i would have to tension belt up again Correct?
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You are scaring me with the words you are speaking..
Clearly you need to take a step back and think about how this is all working. I am not saying this to be a dick, but you are gonna screw this engine up if you do not do some learning first.
If you've got all the locks in place and the crank is at TDC why have you not tensioned the belt up yet? If you have, why would the belt need to be un-tensioned in order to change the injection timing? Everything being locked down is what keeps everything physically timed together. The moving of the injection pump inside its bracket is what changes the timing value of the dial gauge. However it is not necessary to use a timing gauge to get it running.
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
Read this beginning to end, twice, before you touch another timing related object. :D
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No, EVERYTHING IS TIMED right now. belt tensioned and is good, timing is good. ;) You said to run the car and make adjustments to the IP.
"Once you get it running and while it is running, you can then loosen that one 13mm bolt holding the ip in place and move it back or forth depending on what makes it run better with little to no clack-clack."
If i move Ip around that would either tighten or loosen the timing belt. Correct or am i just miss understanding?
Dont worry I'm NOT going to do anything without understanding fully, Thats why i asked. :-\
And i will read fully.
Just sezzin'
Insert Quote
You are scaring me with the words you are speaking..
I am sorry.
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LOL! Yes it is good you have a sense of humor while learning. It makes criticism come much easier, and learning much more effective.
The pulley spins on a shaft inside the pump. So with the pulley being set to TDC, there will be no effect to the belt from turning the IP in its bracket. As at this point you will be spinning the whole pump body around its own internal main shaft which will remain stationary with the belt.
Your post made it seem like you were all gung-ho about getting this done ASAP, so I wanted to make sure you were not gonna set yourself back 14 steps.
If the physical timing is set (cam crank and pump all at TDC) then it is time to start the motor. REMOVE ALL YOUR LOCKS! I have personally left a pump lock in before, it shreds the teeth right off the timing belt.
You have seen the 4 13mm bolts/nuts that hold the pump on correct? Leave the lower one and two less accessible ones a thread or two loose. Before tightening the easy to get one, make sure you can move the pump back and forth. If you can, tighten down that front bolt ONLY. Get the car running, if you have not attempted it yet it is going to take some work. The pump (you replaced it right?) is going to be empty, and it will take A LOT of cranking to pull fuel from the tank. So filling the pump first is a wise move. Once you have the car running and idling, then it is time to loosen that one 13mm bolt up front and move the pump back and forth. Don't worry here as you cannot hurt a thing. Too much towards you and it will get smokey and not rev up too well, too much towards the engine and it will loose the smoke but become really noisy. As if someone just through some marbles down your intake and they are now bouncing on the pistons. Somewhere with no smoke at idle, and just before it gets really clacky is the best setting.
You will run in to some people that will tell you this: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT THE TIMING UNTIL YOU GET A DIAL GAUGE!
When in reality, the number the gauge tells you means absolutely dick all :). What is that number? it is only the relativity of the injection of fuel to the TDC of the firing cylinder. Its really not that important. If it runs, and the marks all lined up your on the home stretch. No two settings will be the same for any two motors, as this number is also dependent on the age and wear of both injectors and injection pump. Older pumps and injectors usually require more advanced (towards the engine) as they need the boost in order to maintain their injection properly.
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"the flywheel bolts aren't all symmetrically drilled so you can only put it on one way"
Is this statement True?
no, its not true..
the PRESSURE PLATE bolts are not symmetrical.. there is one bolt that is out of pattern..
the FLYWHEEL bolts are symmetrical, so if you didnt have alignment dowls, then yes, you could, in theory, get the flywheel 120*, or 240* out of time..
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Removing the timing locks was the first thing i did. Did think that would not have a good outcome.
"You have seen the 4 13mm bolts/nuts that hold the pump on correct? Leave the lower one and two less accessible ones a thread or two loose. Before tightening the easy to get one, make sure you can move the pump back and forth."
There are only 3 bolts holding pump on.... >:( On my bracket im pretty sure thats all there is holding the Ip there, two on the two top corners and one at the very bottom. Which I'm pretty sure about. IF IM RIGHT I WILL TAKE A PICTURE. If im wrong i wont talk about it. ;)
Pump was replaced and will need to be primed have not done that yet i was actually wondering if there is a more efficient way of priming? dragging the car around in gear is also not a options due to circumstances.
And will do, I read that site and i will not read it again once was enough. ;D Well i might at a later point.
Thanks for this also.
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this is also a mechanical head, i was always led to believe that its a NON-interference engine. And that if the belt snaps it wouldnt even bend valves. :-\
technically, if you really wanted to get down to it, the hydro head would be LESS of an interference type, because of the hydro lifters. they SQUISH a little bit, rather than being solid metal-on-metal..
either way tho, hydro or mechanical head, they are both EXTREME INTERFERENCE.
like was mentioned, the cam timing is EXTREMELY important..
and your pump should have 3 BOLTS holding the front of it to the pump bracket. then another bolt back by the high pressure lines..
the bottom bolt is OFTEN overlooked, because of how hard it is to see/get at..
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no, its not true..
the PRESSURE PLATE bolts are not symmetrical.. there is one bolt that is out of pattern..
the FLYWHEEL bolts are symmetrical, so if you didnt have alignment dowls, then yes, you could, in theory, get the flywheel 120*, or 240* out of time..
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Thank you R.O.R, when i looked at the TDC mark in the Transmission after the locking plate and pin, the TDC mark was lined up. So i would assume that flywheel is lined up considering it did smash valves while trying to crank it before. I was sceptical of that because i had just replace the clutch and double guessed myself a little but i did make sure that everything lined up properly ;D
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this is also a mechanical head, i was always led to believe that its a NON-interference engine. And that if the belt snaps it wouldnt even bend valves. :-\
technically, if you really wanted to get down to it, the hydro head would be LESS of an interference type, because of the hydro lifters. they SQUISH a little bit, rather than being solid metal-on-metal..
either way tho, hydro or mechanical head, they are both EXTREME INTERFERENCE.
like was mentioned, the cam timing is EXTREMELY important..
and your pump should have 3 BOLTS holding the front of it to the pump bracket. then another bolt back by the high pressure lines..
the bottom bolt is OFTEN overlooked, because of how hard it is to see/get at..
Understood now that you cleared that up. The are 4 bolts, i was wrong... and i will not be talking about it.
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will the lda off my TD IP fit on to my N/A IP with a altitude compensator? Top swap?
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will the lda off my TD IP fit on to my N/A IP with a altitude compensator? Top swap?
theres more to it than a top swap.
n/a pump has a fuel limiter pin in the side of the case that needs to be removed, or pushed out of the way.. otherwise you get no gains.
if you just do the pump top swap, then you gain nothing.. the limiter pin is still in place, so just before the LDA wants to engage, the throttle arm hits the limiter pin, and goes no further.. the TD pump DOES NOT have this pin..
but, had you searched a little, you would have already known this, and how to correct it, because this EXACT topic has been gone over HUNDREDS of times..
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I don't think the limiting pin is present on the altitude compensating pump, which is what he's asking about. It should be a direct swap.
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just want to update this, CAR HAS STARTED! IP timing needs a little adjustment. But it starts. Thank you all for your input. Your guys are da'best. ;D