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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Thezorn on March 28, 2012, 03:54:45 pm

Title: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on March 28, 2012, 03:54:45 pm
This I happenning to me. Very hard starts happend 2 days ago morining. Excessing cranking with now smoke, after a few minutes traces of white smoke once pump being to fill with fuel again, more and more smoke, then finally fires up.

Replaced the fuel filter and crappy plastic Tee yesterday. The fuel lines have always had the seldom air bubble coming from between fuel filter and tank, and equal as miuch from the filter to the pump never with any problems.

Im thinking about putting 2 shut off switches between the pump and the filter, one on the supply and one on the return to try and see wether the pump is leaking or there is a larger leak somwhere down the line.
There is no visible signs of a leaky pump as of today and no spilt fuel in the driveway.

Any ideas of what I should check or test to find my problem?
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on March 28, 2012, 04:19:06 pm
an electric lift pump and clear return line  can show you a lot.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 410 on March 28, 2012, 04:54:50 pm
If you're sure that you're losing prime then air is getting in somewhere and allowing the fuel to go back to the tank.  Possible areas are loose hose clamps, or even a cracked line, that stupid tee which sounds like you changed already.  One spot people tend to forget about is the front pump seal.  You won't see a leak because it's not on the pressure side of the pump unless you have a lift pump.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on March 28, 2012, 06:17:15 pm
One of the hard lines that went through the frame horn under the car had a crack, just big enough that I could barely feel the air pushing out when I blew into it, replace the whole thing with rubber 5/16's fuel line.
Im hoping this was the culprit.

In the back of my mind I was sorta wishing it was a leaky pump, would give me a good enough reason to finally send it to get built by giles ;D
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: bbob203 on March 28, 2012, 06:24:53 pm
get rid of the fuel pre heater. get a spin on filter housing or a filter with out the preheater. replace your in and out lines with transparent polyurethane. get rid of your water seperator.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: damac on March 28, 2012, 07:17:34 pm
I found one of my hard plastic lines was fractured on my car where it was run up into the engine bay.  Wierd thing is I found it on level ground with the car off, it would leave a puddle.

Also I wonder if this can be caused by an old and used and abused governor shaft that is pressed into the ip lid?  I ask because I had a couple reseal projects and would run it from a can and different filters to start fresh with some issues I was having and my pumps did this.  I didn't see fuel dripping from that area and my pump seemed dry but I would see the same thing.  Next morning during a cold start the car would purge the air and make the car run rough for a tad at idle until it cleared out and all of a sudden ran ok on its own.  Very annoying.

The only reason I never replaced that part on my pumps is because I was stuck and the local bosch shop was far away.  That is something I must do in the future with the pumps I am putting back into service.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on March 28, 2012, 07:42:01 pm
get rid of the fuel pre heater. get a spin on filter housing or a filter with out the preheater. replace your in and out lines with transparent polyurethane. get rid of your water seperator.

No water separator on the early AAZ's as far as I know, hasn't had a preheater on it since I got it, if not ever.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on March 28, 2012, 09:22:48 pm
Mine is leaking externally to the tune of a pool of fuel a foot long when I park, and a steady drip at idle >:(
It still starts fine if cold, badly if parked 20-40 minutes, then all good again.
Luckily, the pump is off the car, and I have a seal kit in my hand.  too bad the shop is  so cold and wet.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Baron VonZeppelin on March 28, 2012, 09:52:44 pm
hasn't had a preheater on it since I got it, if not ever.

That T on the fuel filter - thats the preheat fuel filter set-up.
An 85-87 Jetta/Golf Diesel fuel filter eliminates that T.
Or maybe thats what you did ?

The simplest and most common things i find are the injector jumper hoses having a compromise - and/or the end cap plug on #1 injector.
About $5 puts it all back new.

After that -
Transparent fuel lines before and after filter, and the fuel return line, along with a MityVac tool - you can always pinpoint what area is compromised.

A small low psi diesel rated fuel pusher pump near tank can overcome most prime problems when all else fails. $15-25 on eBay. Also can extend the life or improve operation of a dying Inj Pump.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on March 29, 2012, 02:47:53 pm
the advance o-ring, advance assembly, return lines from the injectors, and a few other things are usually overlooked by most, as air leak issues..

i dont use that crappy braided fuel hose for my injector return lines.. i use import vacuum lines, they fit tighter, and up to this point, are diesel safe.. ive been running vacuum line as my injector returns for YEARS now, and all its done, is gotten a little bit harder. its still way flexible, and seals up good tho..
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on March 29, 2012, 03:14:18 pm
hasn't had a preheater on it since I got it, if not ever.

That T on the fuel filter - thats the preheat fuel filter set-up.
An 85-87 Jetta/Golf Diesel fuel filter eliminates that T.
Or maybe thats what you did ?
The simplest and most common things i find are the injector jumper hoses having a compromise - and/or the end cap plug on #1 injector.
About $5 puts it all back new.

After that -
Transparent fuel lines before and after filter, and the fuel return line, along with a MityVac tool - you can always pinpoint what area is compromised.

A small low psi diesel rated fuel pusher pump near tank can overcome most prime problems when all else fails. $15-25 on eBay. Also can extend the life or improve operation of a dying Inj Pump.

How does that Tee preheat? there is no externall power going to it?

I am starting to lean towards the pump having a leak somewhere. This morning I put 2 fuel shut-offs in the lines and had the return and supply both turned off all day while I was at College, it sat from about 8:30 until about 3:00pm, when I went to start it I turned the shut-off both open and still had the same problem as before.
I just dont understand where the fuel is going if I have the lines both blocked?
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: bbob203 on March 29, 2012, 03:47:29 pm
Quote
How does that Tee preheat? there is no externall power going to it?

excess fuel from a warm ip on its way back to the tank opens a little valve in that t that allows it to drip warm fuel into the filter.

Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Baron VonZeppelin on March 29, 2012, 07:50:12 pm
I just dont understand where the fuel is going if I have the lines both blocked?

Your line(s) are draining back to the tank.
Means you have suction leaks - they don't always leave a wet spot.

Get new transparent hose before filter, after filter, return from pump.
New injector jumpers and end cap.

Then watch for suspicious activity from there.
Before restarts and while restarting, and while running.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: billybobf on March 29, 2012, 10:38:35 pm
I picked up a car for $75 bucks, had the local pro shop shop, all they worked on was imports, the put an inline pump between the filter and the IP fixed the problem... for a while, slowly got worse as far as running went, told him he needed a new IP and the fortune it would cost him. I bought it, I pulled inline pump and replaced with clear line from filter to IP... BUBBLES, replaced the section of line from hardline to filter, no more bubbles. clear line is the most simple diagnostic tool IMO. put some on, let us know what you see
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: bbob203 on March 29, 2012, 10:49:36 pm
another quick solution might be a check valve between ip and fuel filter.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: billybobf on March 29, 2012, 11:00:25 pm
might just hide the problem untill after startup? if the input for the IP is leaking into your timing cover it wouldnt appear to be leaking from the IP but will kill your timing belt quick too
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: bbob203 on March 29, 2012, 11:39:32 pm
might just hide the problem untill after startup? if the input for the IP is leaking into your timing cover it wouldnt appear to be leaking from the IP but will kill your timing belt quick too

thats all true i only offered that as 'quick' solution to keep from having to crank a dry pump until a more permanent fix was implemented.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 04, 2012, 09:57:05 am
The pump has had clear lines from the hard lines to filter since a few days after I got it. It always had the seldome air bubble going into the filter from the tank and had the same amount filter to pump. When I get back home this week Im replacing all the line from the tank to filter in hopes there is magically something in there that has opened up a pin hole.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: smutts on April 05, 2012, 12:09:02 pm
X2 on getting shot of the warm up valve, using the earlier filter, no more bubbles, no more smoke, and more grunt. Happy. Until the fuel freezes. ;)
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 06, 2012, 09:22:23 pm
Right, just to be clear, you have half of the clear lines that you need for diagnosis of the issue and they are showing that the issue isn't on the supply side.  Regardless, you're going to swap out the lines on the supply side this weekend.  If it were me, I'd focus my attentions differently.

I was unclear in my past post that it has clear fuel line from the tank all the way to the pump, supply and return.

Look 2 posts up and youll see how I said that the only place I have ever seen air in the system is in the supply line pre filter.
I replaced the part of the hardline that goes through the frame rail to the fuel filter believing that it was my problem, and it was not.

Unless im missing something, it would make sence for me to replace the line that has been the only sign of air getting into the system since day one..?

Im hopping my local vw shop will have the mk2 diesel filter that Ive been waiting on tomorrow or sometime in the coming week.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 07, 2012, 12:16:42 am
When you first start it up and look at the return does a bunch of air/foam come pouring out of the pump on the return side?

Yes, It takes a couple seconds, but that is exactly what happens
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 09, 2012, 11:39:46 pm
Went and looked at a few things in the car today. First I figured I would check a few things in the pump.
I looked far and wide for any sort of fuel leak and came up dry. I then undid the banjo bolt for the fuel feed to the pump to check if the pump still had fuel in it, the pump turned out to be full and the feed line also was.
I figured Id try and start the car and see what happens, It started second crank, I let it idle for a few minutes then shut it off.
I then went back into the engine bay and noticed that I had the return line's fuel shut-off in the closed position. As soon as I turned the fuel shut-off open there was a rapid vacuum that looked to pull fuel rapidly from the filter/pump. I turned the shut-off to the closed position after about 5 seconds of seeing this vacuum.
I then went back and tried to start the car again, this time it took about 5 or 6 times as long as it would for the car to normally start.

Now by the looks of it, unless Im not understanding the whole vacuum idea, which is more then likely, wouldn't this mean there would have to be a leak in the return line. The whole time the car was sitting the fuel supply line's shut-off was open.

This is confusing me more and more the more I think about it..which Isnt a good thing. 
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on April 10, 2012, 12:20:48 am
You installed a valve in the return line.
Ran with said valve closed for a bit and stopped the motor
Opened the valve , releasing all the return fuel  under pressure from the normally unpressurized side of the out banjo...
A bunch of that fuel whooshed by.

^ Did I read that right?
If so, I'm surprised you didn't blow off a return line.
Hard start afterward is a good puzzle though.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 10, 2012, 08:31:38 pm
Yea I realized afterwards that the return was closed off, im still confuesed on the hard start right after it was running though.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Toby on April 10, 2012, 10:04:32 pm
another quick solution might be a check valve between ip and fuel filter.

Where do you find such a check valve that will stand up to diesel. I have looked far  and wide for one with little success. I find lots that are to stiff, but none in the operating range of the suction side of the IP. I have made some out of other things, but have never been happy with them.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 10, 2012, 11:15:39 pm
I just used ones that were meant for gas... I dont plan on having then in for very long, just until I get all this resolved.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Toby on April 20, 2012, 07:23:07 pm
What car did it come off of? I have never been able to find a low pressure gas check valve. I know they exist, since I have held them in my hand, but never have been able to find what they are off of or where to buy one.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 20, 2012, 11:32:41 pm
I just used regular fuel shut offs, no check valves. Not sure where you could get a fuel rated check valve personally.

I finally replaced got around to replacing all the fuel lines last week. After spending half the afternoon making sure there was no leaks and priming the lines/filter I still had the same problem. I was stumpted.
Finally after replacing all the lines, it clicked in my head, that everytime I would start the car it would have a huge cloud of white smoke as soon as it would fire up, meaning it was getting fuel the whole time and not combusting. Meaning that either it had such bad compression that it cant start, or it has no glow plugs.

When I built the engine last winter I did the "pimp your glow plugs". The reason I never suspected anything was wrong with the glow plugs is because my soleniod would still click whenever I turned my key on, but when I tested the GP's for power there was nothing. I made sure that there was no loose connections and that everything was in working order, finally replaced the soleniod.
First crank it started up..
I still dont know why the soleniod would click but not transfer power, possibley a corroded or broken internal post?
But its working now and I am very happy about it  ;D
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on April 21, 2012, 07:40:33 am
Do you have a MityVac? Seems like you replaced a lot of parts unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: ORCoaster on April 21, 2012, 08:48:42 am
Seems like you replaced a lot of parts unnecessarily.

The story of a mechanics life I say.  Live and learn to do better?

Check valve?  How about this one.  
http://www.wvodesigns.com/products/wvo-conversion/hose-fittings/sst-check-valve-for-99-02-ford-7-3-psd.html

A wee bit spendy.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on April 21, 2012, 08:59:24 am
Seems like you replaced a lot of parts unnecessarily.

The story of a mechanics life I say.  Live and learn to do better?

Check valve?  How about this one.  
http://www.wvodesigns.com/products/wvo-conversion/hose-fittings/sst-check-valve-for-99-02-ford-7-3-psd.html

A wee bit spendy.

That check valve would work but you have to put some adapters in to fit the VW IDI hoses. Why not buy the VW check valves with the correct size barbs? There's one on the fuel sender and one on the water separator under the car on some model years. These check valves are also on most TDI's
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Thezorn on April 21, 2012, 11:18:02 am
Seems like you replaced a lot of parts unnecessarily.

The story of a mechanics life I say.  Live and learn to do better?

Check valve?  How about this one. 
http://www.wvodesigns.com/products/wvo-conversion/hose-fittings/sst-check-valve-for-99-02-ford-7-3-psd.html

A wee bit spendy.


That check valve would work but you have to put some adapters in to fit the VW IDI hoses. Why not buy the VW check valves with the correct size barbs? There's one on the fuel sender and one on the water separator under the car on some model years. These check valves are also on most TDI's

No kidding
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: Toby on April 21, 2012, 11:33:45 am
Quote
That check valve would work but you have to put some adapters in to fit the VW IDI hoses. Why not buy the VW check valves with the correct size barbs? There's one on the fuel sender and one on the water separator under the car on some model years. These check valves are also on most TDI's

What cars have a water separator under the car? Or did you mean under the car near the water separator? Also which ones have the check valve in the tank? Having a couple of these in the tool box would be a great troubleshooting aid.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on April 21, 2012, 11:40:28 am
Summit racing has a couple kinds  ~$20
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: belchfire on April 21, 2012, 12:00:49 pm
Mc Master-Carr(.com) is an industrial supplier that will sell to the average Joe and has about any kind of chech valve imaginable. I got a brass one w/ stainless ball mfg'd in 1952 off of E-bay for cheap.
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: ORCoaster on April 21, 2012, 07:00:07 pm
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-check-valves/=h7jmrw

More than enough to choose from.  Some already have hose barbs on them.  15 bucks
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on April 21, 2012, 08:36:30 pm
Quote
That check valve would work but you have to put some adapters in to fit the VW IDI hoses. Why not buy the VW check valves with the correct size barbs? There's one on the fuel sender and one on the water separator under the car on some model years. These check valves are also on most TDI's

What cars have a water separator under the car? Or did you mean under the car near the water separator? Also which ones have the check valve in the tank? Having a couple of these in the tool box would be a great troubleshooting aid.

My Ecodiesel had a water separator under the car (since removed). There was also an inline  check valve coming off a barb of the separator going to the IP , and an inline check valve going to the sender for fuel return (not inside tank.).
Title: Re: Reasons an injection pump can loose its prime overnight?
Post by: srgtlord on April 22, 2012, 05:12:34 am
I know my pump loses prime overnight, but with a simple  low pressure electric pump, problem solved  ;)