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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on December 17, 2011, 09:48:18 am
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Sorry guys but it has to be done.
The car has become unreliable as to if it will start.. and its not even that cold out yet.
-10C this morning and I go out to start the car. Hit the glows for 15+ seconds let off and start cranking. nananananananana little bit of smoke rolling out from the pipe. Took 30 seconds of cranking and two glow sessions of 15 seconds to get it going, and even when it caught it only kind of rolled in to running. Like it was barely catching then a little bit more and so forth until it fully caught.
What could be causing my issues? I'm stumped. Battery is good, clearly after 30+ seconds of cranking and two 15+ second glows. Glow-plugs are brand new, they are fully manual and are individually fused. Each pulls 9-10 amps when cold. I have an electric full pump that i run when i am firing the plugs, so the pump is not losing prime. I also have clear fuel lines and they are both full of fuel going in to and leaving the pump.
Hmm come to think of it, I did notice a small diesel leak.. on the backside of the pump possibly.. Could the cold start/advance cover leaking be giving me these issues?? It doesn't seem to be allowing the pump to drain out, as I don't see any spots after sitting. and the fuel lines are still full.
Fuel filter? if this were plugging would it not show running issues as well?
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Sorry guys but it has to be done.
The car has become unreliable as to if it will start.. and its not even that cold out yet.
-10C this morning and I go out to start the car. Hit the glows for 15+ seconds let off and start cranking. nananananananana little bit of smoke rolling out from the pipe. Took 30 seconds of cranking and two glow sessions of 15 seconds to get it going, and even when it caught it only kind of rolled in to running. Like it was barely catching then a little bit more and so forth until it fully caught.
What could be causing my issues? I'm stumped. Battery is good, clearly after 30+ seconds of cranking and two 15+ second glows. Glow-plugs are brand new, they are fully manual and are individually fused. Each pulls 9-10 amps when cold. I have an electric full pump that i run when i am firing the plugs, so the pump is not losing prime. I also have clear fuel lines and they are both full of fuel going in to and leaving the pump.
Hmm come to think of it, I did notice a small diesel leak.. on the backside of the pump possibly.. Could the cold start/advance cover leaking be giving me these issues?? It doesn't seem to be allowing the pump to drain out, as I don't see any spots after sitting. and the fuel lines are still full.
Fuel filter? if this were plugging would it not show running issues as well?
you and i have some of the same issues..
and i believe that you and i are also running the OLD diesel thats only LSD, not ULSD.
how good are your plugs working?
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i said this in another thread just recently, but i'll throw in my two wooden nickels.
mine did the same thing.. especially that "roll to a start" part; almost to the point you didn't know whether to let off the starter or not lol.. is it runnin?
my solution was to finish out the F250 mod with an f250 style glow plug relay, and straight battery cables to the glow plugs. (yer GP wires are heatin up as they are too skinny. resistance.) i timed the orginal GP system, and the light stayed on for 4.8 seconds at it's longest. (course this was the dash light.. i never checked if the GP's actually stayed on the same amount.) so i used that as a base number to try and cook my plugs off of. i was only able to get to 3 GP's, as i had to make the cable ends (they don't make such large gauge crimpable wire ends that have small glowplug-sized holes in them. more like alt. B+ size holes, at the smallest) and i could not get to the closest one to the timing belt.
so when i get it to fire up, the 4th cylinder mirefires for about 20 seconds where it didn't really warmed up, as it still has a little nothing cable running to it; essentially it's not working.
but the completion of the F250 mod brought me to: at 28 degrees F, i can get it started in about 15-20 seconds. 5 seconds on the glowplugs, crank it.. if it doesn't start in 7 seconds of starter, 5 more seconds on the glowplugs, and it'll fire right up on the second wack of the starter, within a few cranks.
and to remind you how deep in the hole i am, my compression is 200/200/400/200 and i have a gasser starter cause i fried 2 of the 4 brushes in my diesel starter doing the same thing you described.. lots of GP warmin, then crankin crankin crankin and eventually i'm idling with the starter basically.. WAITIN ON HEAT.
with a block heater it fires like it's summer time out; third noise of the starter and i'm running, except the #4 misses for a few seconds.
i'd take pix but i'm in Holland for the holidays.. (it'll be 26 days of sitting for the what the dutch call a Yetta.. wonder how getting it fired up on Janurary 9th is gonna go!)
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no matter what glow plugs you have, 5 seconds burn time aint enough, even with duraterms..
late GPs burnt for 8 seconds.
early GPs burnt for 16..
your F250 mod is just masking other underlying issues..
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I see nothing wrong with running two batteries? to be able to maintain above 1000 reliable cold cranking amps in any temperature? Yes Please. We just bought a new truck battery for my bro's turbo diesel, 850cca and 1050ca.. F YAH.
However, my plugs are good. 4g from battery to the solenoid, and solenoid to my fuse buss. From then on it is 12g to each plug, maybe a 20" run. Perfectly fine on the sizes for the current the plugs pull.
I am leaning towards it being fuel related.. KEv I ran a few tanks of Summer LSD back in early November.. but since have had the last few fill ups be winterized ULSD from a well used diesel pump in town.
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Weather for Tampa, FL
66°F |Mostly Sunny
;D
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DieselBalz, You Suck :).
I think I'd like to live in South Carolina.. juts a little further north so its not so hot in the winters... LMAO
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What oil are you running? Synthetic?
What's your total voltage drop?
What's your timing set to?
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Thank-you. I was kind of hoping it was the back advance cover leaking.. Nice and easy seal to replace :).
Pop the pump off and voila new seal bobs your uncle. Pretty sure it is not the head seal leaking.. it feels wet near the back of the pump.. I guess i'll wipe it down and see whats what.
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What oil are you running? Synthetic?
15w-40 dino :o.. but its not a slow crank that is the issue
What's your total voltage drop?
No idea i'll check tomorrow, however.. again i don't think its a starting system issue.
What's your timing set to?
Hmm.. I can't recall.. I was messing around with it every few days to get it right.. can't remember what I had it at.. I do know cranking with the cold start out makes it slower.. so I'd say im right on the ridge of too much advance
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15-40 is kinda sludge in cold cold temp.. 10-30 much better for the starter..
is advaance pulled while cranking? or do you pull it once it starts to fire? i pull once it starts to fire as too advanced will sometimes cause issues on starting when cold.. easy test.. should try it..
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15-40 is kinda sludge in cold cold temp.. 10-30 much better for the starter..
was gonna try a jug of 0w40 fully synthetic actually
is advaance pulled while cranking? or do you pull it once it starts to fire? i pull once it starts to fire as too advanced will sometimes cause issues on starting when cold.. easy test.. should try it..
No I pull it after it starts to fire, pulling it prior to slows the cranking.. I have it timed fairly high iirc. possibly .95 or higher.. I'll check tomorrow
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8v, at that temp my Little Mule, glowing once with the cold start pulled out and Syn 10/30 for winter, hit the starter, the engine turns over normally and fires right up. The only times I have ever had to glow twice etc. was when the compression was down before the first rebuild. I double dog dare you to check the compression cold, before cranking. I think you will find your compression is way down. If you don't have a compression adapter or gauge, you can possibly borrow one for free at an auto parts store. Also if you can get the gauge but no adapter, you can use a cut off old glow plug and have a fitting welded or brazed on, then instead of taking the compression from the injector bore you take it from the glow plug holes. Anyway thats what I have found with my vehicle.
Stay warm
BlueMule
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If you take the pump off it maybe a good idea to do the main seal while your there. That one is the hardest to see if there is an issue.
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15-40 is kinda sludge in cold cold temp.. 10-30 much better for the starter..
was gonna try a jug of 0w40 fully synthetic actually
is advaance pulled while cranking? or do you pull it once it starts to fire? i pull once it starts to fire as too advanced will sometimes cause issues on starting when cold.. easy test.. should try it..
No I pull it after it starts to fire, pulling it prior to slows the cranking.. I have it timed fairly high iirc. possibly .95 or higher.. I'll check tomorrow
You'll like the 0w40. I always try to run a 0 or 5wxx synth in the winter. It makes a drastic difference.
Do you have a timing gauge so when you re and re the pump you can put it back in the same place?
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Me gots the tools for the jobs b'y.
I will either check where it is now.. or frig around with it after i get it resealed..
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Alright, so I never did pull the pump for a reseal. Because i (in my head) ruled out a fuel leak down as I had no air bubbles what so ever in my feed or return lines, yes they are clear. I did check my timing and it was at a high 1.00mm I can't recall why i set it so high.. but i did. So I took it down a few notches to 0.90mm and it still is starting like a queer, possibly even worse.
Here is what happens. I'll hit the plugs for 15 seconds (yes i like to get em extra hot), I have tested my particular plugs and they don't even star to glow till after 5 seconds, and are not fully glowing until 20 seconds. So I glow, while im glowing my electric fuel pump is also on, then let off and start to crank. With the reduced timing the cranking is much much quicker, and smoke starts to billow from the tail pipe but no firing off. I am stumped. it will eventually catch then run like a bag of hammers for over a minute.. sputtering smoke and missing all over the place.
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I may be a complete moron with what I am gonna say, but what you are describing sounds like what happens when on the rare 38 degree morning, I forget to pull out the cold start advance, glow it and start. It sputters misses and makes other displeasing sounds until I pull the cold start. Since thats an advance, wouldn't you want to advance your timing?
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I had it advanced. 1.00mm, and then i backed it down to 0.90mm because it was having a hell of a time starting and when it did it was a clatter basket. So i figured i was too far advanced.. so i backed down to the stock setting of 0.90mm. But now it seems worse? LoL
Pulling the cold start, which i tested when i had the gauge in there, advances the timing 0.10mm. So when I pull the CS it advances my timing to 1.00mm. Which is where I had it set static before anyway. So what the hell is happening here? after it starts and runs the rest of the day its pretty much fine, even if it sits a while.
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simply solution, plug the old blockheater in, the engine will love you for it , most wear happens on a cold engine. you said it starts good the rest of the day . the $ you spend on elec. wil cover the fuel on a cold startup.
do you have any ideal on your cranking rpm or starter drag. my wifes 1.9 was slow to start rpl the starter and bang it was a new car starting again , it took 10 years to get to that point but you could hear the crank rpm go way up.
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Ahh actually I did plug it in once last week. It was -20c out ;). I plugged it in 2 hours before i left the house, and when i came out i could hear the cooling sizzling. she was DAMN hot. It did not make the start any different, it still took forever to start.
On the starter, not the problem. It is cranking very quick. Gasser quick, as I have a 1000cca battery in there from an f-350.
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You have the synthetic in there now right? Do you push the clutch in when cranking?
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Yes I have the 5w40 full-syn in there, what an increase on mileage it has!
Oddly enough I do not push the clutch in, I start it in neutral clutch out all the time...
Here's a stupid tidbit, this morning (0 degrees) it started just fine, albeit with a rough idle.. But it didn't crank more than twice..
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How about this? Your glows don't come on till 15 seconds into the cycle and you turn them off shortly after that, 20 seconds. Double cycle them then try a cold start.
I would half the timing change and go back to .95 mm to see if that gets you better starts.
And just what condition are the injectors in? I would be pop testing them in the cold to see if some weirdness with cold expansion is having some effect on delivery.
All the other normal issues seem to be taken care of, slow starter, bad battery (honestly an F350?), fuel in the lines, timing and leaks.
Oh you mentioned you don't drop the clutch when starting, but do you give it that 1/3 down on the accelerator? That seems to help mine as it allows fuel to be delivered and pulled to the pump and not incur a restriction of any sort on the pump.
Yeah, scratching our heads here too.
You need a garage man, 50 degrees F (10C) , not a problem starting then right?
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Try pushing the clutch in and see what happens. I agree that .95 might be better
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How about this? Your glows don't come on till 15 seconds into the cycle and you turn them off shortly after that, 20 seconds. Double cycle them then try a cold start.
Depending on the temperature, I could burn the plugs for up to 30 seconds. Doesnt change.
I would half the timing change and go back to .95 mm to see if that gets you better starts.
And just what condition are the injectors in? I would be pop testing them in the cold to see if some weirdness with cold expansion is having some effect on delivery.
I have no idea on the injectors, I wanna say good? I run ATF and Diesel Power Service regularly.
All the other normal issues seem to be taken care of, slow starter, bad battery (honestly an F350?), fuel in the lines, timing and leaks.
Yup one of the two out of an f-350, not only that but the battery is a reman and ATLEAST 5 years old.. it was around in the truck before i knew of it.. so 5+ years old, still measures at 12.61V. This was in my 81 just after i got it out of the barn it sat in for 6 years and running.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/Feb2010374.jpg)
Oh you mentioned you don't drop the clutch when starting, but do you give it that 1/3 down on the accelerator? That seems to help mine as it allows fuel to be delivered and pulled to the pump and not incur a restriction of any sort on the pump.
Yeah, scratching our heads here too.
You need a garage man, 50 degrees F (10C) , not a problem starting then right?
I'll try dropping the clutch next time, see how that helps.. i do have fresh 75w tranny oil, so i dont think it adds too much to drag. I do push the accelerator down the little bit, but only recently as of this problem. I have a 2 1/2 car garage, or a 4 mk1 garage ;). But it is currently my tools and my '67 Cougar. This was taken after top end gaskets, and figuring out the bastard wiring the PO did to get the 87 motor and its electronic distributor in there.. She runs real good though ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3jOpUS_8k
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Cougar/0506091313.jpg)
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Absolutely love your battery hold forward. I did something similar, did you put cardboard and rubber between the rad and batt like I did too? On the MK2 there is a bolt there that wanted to rub a hole in my battery.
You really need to get a timing cover too.
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Haha, the battery is too big for the tray! But this was in a car that wasn't driven. Now its held in by a bungee cord ;) legit, and I've passed two certifications that way too. I have the timin cover, but I've also done 20,000km without it. Lol I like to live on the edge.
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Beware, you can only stack so many silly and foolish actions on top one another. Then they come crashing down like a rabbit off a cherry picker. Good thing once the engine is out most of the weight is off the front end. New years resolution for you should be to factor in a small factor of safety in your day to day actions.
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Yea, about that bungee cord.... Thats how I got my Jetta, the too big battery bounced while going around a corner and smacked the rad fan, fried the engine. Instant $100 car. Thats how I gots my diesel! Lemme know when that happens to yours, I'll beat the scrapyard on price!
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How many volts do you have going to each glowplug? That's a fairly long run of wire you have. I doubt it's your problem but it could be worth looking at.
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Ahh good old cold starts, after getting my advance cable hooked up she fires right up but sounds ROUGH for a few seconds. I dont even have a block heater, how hard is it to install one?
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I've been trying to figure out a better battery tie down since I got the car in 2007. Hey, it works.
Back on track here, I had another hell of a time starting her today.. I tried half cold start lever, which should be effectively half of the full movement, ie. 0.05mm bumping my idle static timing to 0.95mm. It didn't help.
The engine turned and turned billowing dark smoke from the pipe, and when it caught off it ran rough for atleast 10 minutes.
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Back on track here, I had another hell of a time starting her today.. I tried half cold start lever, which should be effectively half of the full movement, ie. 0.05mm bumping my idle static timing to 0.95mm. It didn't help.
The engine turned and turned billowing dark smoke from the pipe, and when it caught off it ran rough for atleast 10 minutes.
Pulling the cold start out may not be exactly the same as bumping the timing to 0.95. It depends on your pump and when your pump starts increasing the dynamic timing. Most likely it is the same though.
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Ahh good old cold starts, after getting my advance cable hooked up she fires right up but sounds ROUGH for a few seconds. I dont even have a block heater, how hard is it to install one?
knock a soft plug out of the back of the block, and then pop a block heater in there..
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-have you checked compression?
-I assume this is a mech head...are the valves in proper adjustment?
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X2 on the cold lever pull out, not the same as changing the timing. My lever hardly does anything until it gets 3/4 of the way out. I guess I have slack in the system. But I don't need the cold lever to start my car. Fires off after glow and does rattle around a bit but I just solved that by adding a stiff cable to the accel lever. Doubles as my cruise control. When cold I just nudge it a bit for the first block or so to up the idle until it makes the magic sound of smooth sailing.
When I pulled my injectors out yesterday to do the compression check I have been unable to do till now I noticed that the "rebuilt" injectors I put in just 6 months ago were a bit black on the heat shield. And I run ATF in the fuel. So, maybe you might need to concentrate on that part to see what you can see.
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Pulling the cold start out may not be exactly the same as bumping the timing to 0.95. It depends on your pump and when your pump starts increasing the dynamic timing. Most likely it is the same though.
The dial indicator seemed to start tracking advance as soon as the handle started to move, so i believe half handle to be half of the 0.10mm advancement of the CS handle.
It is a 91 hydraulic engine, the pump is a TD body with a 91 n/a lid on it. I think it may have gotten worse now that I have jumped down to 0.90mm and i backed out the fuel screw a bit to bring the idle down a tad. So I think I'll try jumping up to 0.95mm and raising the idle by the idle adjustment, and maybe backing off some of the fuel screw to not hang on idle.
I have not checked compression yet, I have not been able to find a supply for heat shields at a reasonable price around here.
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Yea, about that bungee cord.... Thats how I got my Jetta, the too big battery bounced while going around a corner and smacked the rad fan, fried the engine. Instant $100 car. Thats how I gots my diesel! Lemme know when that happens to yours, I'll beat the scrapyard on price!
:D I wouldn't let that stop me, just be more of a reason to get the damn TDI in there and stop dealing with all this B.S...
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Another thing you could try is to go to the hardware store and buy clear vinyl tubing to replace the fuel in and out lines to look for air in the lines. This stuff doesn't last long, it gets hard, motorcycle fuel line is best. Do you have a way to keep the GP's on longer than just the relay?
I'm dealing with a similar problem. Starts right up, but runs on 3 cyl for 45 sec then finally clears to 4 cyl. Cracking the inj lines gave up #2 as the slacker, but cleaning and repop testing didn't change anything. New return lines off the injectors, nada. I have a lift pump wired to stay on as long as the GP's are on, thinking maybe there was a slight seal leak, didn't make any difference. After the first crappy start of the day it's great unless it sits another 10 hours.
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weird, were having the same issue.
I have clear fuel lines through the engine bay, no bubbles.
I also have the glow plugs fully manual, they can stay on for as long as I want. Sometimes when cold i glow for 25 seconds. I also have an electric lift pump that is on the whole time the key is on, I run it while i glow the plugs.
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And.... if you plug it for an hour, you'd never know there was any friggin problem.
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Plugging mine in only helps a bit.. I am friggan stumped..
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You've discounted injector issues, so it could be compression ratio, or maybe a lazy cam follower.
Don't worry about heatshields, just reuse them. Reforming, as per my description [somewhere] is better. I had one heatshield fail [out of the car] in reforming a set of 4, 15 times :o
Therefore reforming once is completely safe.
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knock a soft plug out of the back of the block, and then pop a block heater in there..
Correction, how easy is it while everything is in the car? I just can imagine how to knock it out, arent they pressed in?
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knock a soft plug out of the back of the block, and then pop a block heater in there..
Correction, how easy is it while everything is in the car? I just can imagine how to knock it out, arent they pressed in?
You have to drain the coolant first. Then you hammer a screw driver into the plug and pry it out, hoping that it doesn't fall into the engine. You need to be careful not to bugger up the bore. The center plug is best but it's the hardest one to install into.
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knock a soft plug out of the back of the block, and then pop a block heater in there..
Correction, how easy is it while everything is in the car? I just can imagine how to knock it out, arent they pressed in?
not easy.. time to get creative..
it is possible tho. ive replaced soft plugs in car before, but it was a mk2 gas..
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You've discounted injector issues, so it could be compression ratio, or maybe a lazy cam follower.
Don't worry about heatshields, just reuse them. Reforming, as per my description [somewhere] is better. I had one heatshield fail [out of the car] in reforming a set of 4, 15 times :o
Therefore reforming once is completely safe.
today i will swap in another set of injectors and change nothing else. see if that changes anything. i will have to look for your reforming thread, i know ive read it before.
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I would also pull the check valves off the pump to see if they have wear issues. Perhaps the problem is just past the outflow of fuel. That there is some bleed back into the main body of the pump over time that it sits. My current injector problem has me thinking that small particles lodged in those check valves might be similar to on stuck in the pintle. Just won't hold back the fluid as intended.
If you pull the injectors you're removing the lines any way right?
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Would i visibly be able to see if I have wear issues? I would think a microscopic wear on such an item could cause issue.
I will have the lines off so I suppose it would not hurt to give them a look see. Once i get done with the pump I am working on for someone, I will be ripping in to my TDI. Taking the pump off and dissecting it. and then taking my car off the road for a few days to make myself an m-tdi pump and swapping motors ;)
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I use a bright light and a 10 power hand lens and look at those shiny areas in the valves and at times I see a ridge where one is slamming against the other.
Might have something embedded into the metal that prevents closure.
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I use a bright light and a 10 power hand lens and look at those shiny areas in the valves and at times I see a ridge where one is slamming against the other.
Might have something embedded into the metal that prevents closure.
We are taking about possible faults in a check valve, correct? Hard to see how the fault would go away when warm. The floating valve inner is loose, and held in place with a spring; wheras a pintle in an injector is such a closely machined fit that binding when cold is quite common. A spare complete valve would solve it I suppose. Wasn't there someone who had one valve inner reversed? I can't remember how the problem showed itself :-\
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I thought we were chasing a cold start problem. Long cranking time, glows good and running an electric pump with key turn.
More than just mildly annoying for him
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I thought we were chasing a cold start problem. Long cranking time, glows good and running an electric pump with key turn.
More than just mildly annoying for him
Just a wee bit annoying. lol. Now I've got a damn fuel leak while running i can't see where its coming from either I suspect the rear advance cover.. like I did before. Pumps coming off, and being built in to an M-tdi ;)
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That will either teach it a lesson to mess with you or provide us with numerous other trouble shooting threads. Best of Luck.
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trouble shooting threads.
Isn't that what the forum is for?
however for anyone looking through this thread.. there is some good decisive info on cold start issues. And I think I will attribute my issues to a leaking cold start advance.
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Thanks Tyler and R.O.R-2.0, so far haven't had any starting issues, and this seems like more of a warm weather job, so il wait till its warm, maybe February with these weather trends ;D
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ORCoaster, you'll be happy to hear I am remaining IDI for a few more weeks. I have a local member bringing me another full 1.6TD and some heated seats in February.. so I'll see whats up.
HOWEVER! Tonight in the last three hours I removed my pump and replaced the seals that were leaking (I didn't do them all because the pump is getting opened soon to be made m-tdi) as well as new coppers for the fuel lines. I then re-timed it to 0.95mm up from my previous try at 0.90mm. After i got the system bled and started it still ran like a dumbass.. so i figure I am not done with it yet. May still have to crack the lines off once again and replace the injectors with one of the other 4 sets I have.. :( lol.
We'll see how it starts tomorrow morning, then I'll proceed from there.
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So this morning it was marginally better on the starts. Temperature was just below freezing.
It still ran like a bag of hammers after it started though.. Puffing blueish smoke like no other and missing. While I had the pump off i took each GP out and visually tested it on a spare battery. All perfect working order.
Its such a weird issue.. once the car is even remotely warm, you can start it up without gp's like a diesel with perfect compression.
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Do you have fast idle on your pump? Does it help any to give it a bit of throttle to bump the idle up?
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So this morning it was marginally better on the starts. Temperature was just below freezing.
It still ran like a bag of hammers after it started though.. Puffing blueish smoke like no other and missing. While I had the pump off i took each GP out and visually tested it on a spare battery. All perfect working order.
Its such a weird issue.. once the car is even remotely warm, you can start it up without gp's like a diesel with perfect compression.
Mine does that too. When the car is warm, say I run into the Circle K to grab something, I can come back out and with no gp pause, it will fire on the first the first or second turn of the starter.
In general, what does bluish smoke mean out of these diesels?
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New member here, but long time reader since registrations were closed.
You said you haven't checked compression yet, please do! :)
Your cold start symptoms sound exactly like my 1.6 NA with 300-350 psi in the cylinders from a (supposedly) blown headgasket.
I put new glowplugs in mine and some rebuilt injectors as well, but it will still require a few starts and some throttle to stay running when cold.
It's very rough, stumbly and sounds like hammers beating on the cylinders for a few minutes and smokes like crazy till it's warmed up.
Then once warm it starts so easily, like instant-on-start the second I turn the key.
My "cold" starts are only in the mid 30's - 40's too, I could only imagine that Canadian cold. :o I have a video of a cold start on my phone too of it doing all this I could upload.
I have a rebuild planned with lots of pics in the coming months before summer, looking forward to it. It's my project car right now, it isn't road legal yet.
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In general, what does bluish smoke mean out of these diesels?
It can mean retarded timing
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Or valve stem guide leaks? I thought that oil would also run down the valve stem and sit on top the cylinder and get burned with the first few strokes upon firing up. Or is that not possible without loss of compression and that would show in the numbers when doing a comp check?
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I did a HG in June of last year. So I do believe that is al good.
Once hot I can leave the car for a half hour or more and still fire off on the first crank.. So I don't think compression is my issue either. I would check it, but the injectore bore adapters I bought have the pressure nozzle way up inside what is supposed to be the "injector" this will give me one hell of a falsely low reading for sure. So I can't trust that.
I have tried the timing at 1.00mm, 0.90mm and now 0.95mm smokes just the same at all settings. Yes Tyler I do have the fast idel pump, and pulling the advance so it advances and bumps throttle helps, but it still smokes and misses. If you rev it up to what sounds like anything above 1350rpm it does not miss any longer.
Weirdest thing!
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Once hot I can leave the car for a half hour or more and still fire off on the first crank.. So I don't think compression is my issue either.
The fact that it starts fine when hot only further points to low compression as being the possible cause of your trouble. It is obvious that a diesel engine's ignition source is heat. That heat is generated primarily through compression. An engine with low enough compression on one or all cylinders will be hard to start cold and when started, will run rough (not enough heat to vapourize and burn the fuel). When hot, the engine will often start and run much better since the absorbed heat in the cylinder walls, pistons and head serve to mask the compression issue.
When you start the engine again cold, I suggest loosening the injector lines one at a time to see if you can pinpoint a weak cylinder.
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my old audi wouldnt start when cold unless you gave it a shot of ether..
once warm, it fired up just like a healthy diesel..
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poor compression :( nooes. Well thats weird it is definitely all of a sudden.. this past summer I could easily start the car WITHOUT glow-plugs when it was above 20c ambient temp.. even after sitting for over 12+ hours.
I am not too worried about it, as I have the TDI motor I am working on getting in there within the next month.. so its not TOO much of a worry.
I still want to lean away from compression.. i think its still fuel related..
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poor compression :( nooes. Well thats weird it is definitely all of a sudden.. this past summer I could easily start the car WITHOUT glow-plugs when it was above 20c ambient temp.. even after sitting for over 12+ hours.
I am not too worried about it, as I have the TDI motor I am working on getting in there within the next month.. so its not TOO much of a worry.
I still want to lean away from compression.. i think its still fuel related..
well then take a compression check and rule out compression.. or else keep pondering.
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I may have too. However the adapter i got for my compression gauge has the pintle WAY up in what would be the "injector".. giving me a queer false reading.. :(
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I may have too. However the adapter i got for my compression gauge has the pintle WAY up in what would be the "injector".. giving me a queer false reading.. :(
if you got good compression, it will still prolly register with an acceptable number, but a tad low..
if your compression is low, it will make it seem even lower..
is it the kind of adapter that threads in where an injector goes? or where the glow plug goes? i like the glow plug type personally, unless the injector type has the check valve in the BOTTOM..
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When my starter bushing and starter acted up and all the glow plugs were bad I had the same symtoms. This was in my 84 rabbit.
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When my starter bushing and starter acted up and all the glow plugs were bad I had the same symtoms. This was in my 84 rabbit.
his plugs are fine tho, he just checked..
and i imagine he would notice the starter slow down also..
and i dont think a starter bushing can just go out, i think its more of a slowly occuring thing, that happens over time..
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At some point do a compression check. If you have one of those rather roomy adaptors, fill the void with little coils of lead sheet.
Meanwhile, your desciption of engine sound makes me reiterate "too advanced". The figure off your gauge confirms this.
You should try down nearer 30 thou.
[Working in metric is better for reference to VW figures; just divide your readings in thou by 39.]
Additionally, you said you were operating nearer 125bar than 135bar. Diesel compresses less at these lower figures [1% @100bar-ish] thus diesel appears more like a solid, and the timing accelerates towards a timing figure of 0mm, or there abouts :o
I have operated at 0.7 for 125bar, and as low as 0.5mm/20thou.
OK You have starting issues which will probably get worse when 'retarding'
However, a common starting issue can be because the max power screw is out a little too far. Screw it in half turn.
Blue smoke is oil. Oil can be from rings but it sounds like it could indeed be the inlet valve seals...
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Alright here is whats up. Its -18c here right now. I started it up earlier to move it in the driveway, just a whore to start. I went with my brother down to his shop he works at to spend the day doing stuff to his car, came back and went to dinner in my car. so the car sat in -18c all day pretty much. From noon, until I started it again at 7:30pm. It started fine, ran like ass, but started fine. It also missed for quite a bit while driving it.. always does.
Kevo its the injector type. Got it from Prothe ;) lol. I guess i'll be checking compression in the next few days.
Glow-plugs all check out, and the starter is definitely cranking REAL quick. so i rule cranking speed out too.
Mark, you are a rambling man. :) lol lemme see if i can follow you. It may be too advanced, but I tried it at 0.040-0.035inch (1.00mm-0.90mm) and it did the same things.. if not it was worse to start when retarded.
You want me to try timing to 0.030? 0.030 inch = 0.762 millimeters I think that will be a tad TOO low, wont it? what do you mean by I am operating nearer 125bar as opposed to 135bar?
I have messed with the max fuel screw quite a bit, but i do believe I have it in as far as I can possibly have it.. I have the other two "idle" adjustments practically bottomed out so I can have the fuel screw in as far as possible without a hanging idle! lol
Also the motor is using zero oil. This happened prior to my last oil change and I am now running a 5w40 full synthetic.. and it is still not using any. I wouldnt say it is blue like your text there mark lol.. definitely smells like un-burnt diesel as opposed to oil.
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I say combo between poor compression when cold and a poor fueling issue at startup if allowed to set overnight. Some where fuel is leaking back and enough air is coming in to make it difficult to start. Just fix up the other engine and get rid of this problem one.
DAS
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Clear fuel lines, no air.. :( must be just stupid poor compression. I hope it is not pump related! I will be using the current pump as my base for the m-tdi pump. It is a 1.6 TD body with a N/A lid on it :)
Just soaking the tdi pump and bracket in penetrating fluid.. i swear it has NEVER been off the engine.. or moved for that matter.
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8V, I'd just like to apologise for my strange posting earlier. I've been up too late, ie 3am, [I've been telling myself that I don't need more than 4 hours sleep.] Clearly I do. ::)
Although a similar topic, we'll just call it wrong thread and wrong forum 8). I won't be erasing, as it messes with continuity and is a monument to human error... :'(
In my defense, you did mention bluish smoke, so my valve stem seal comment holds ;D.
Have you tried a little more on the max fuel screw?
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might be the opening in the plunger that doesent get uncouvered enough like mark just said...
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Would this problem not have presented itself when it were warm out as well though Carrizog?
Pump was not dismantled that far while in my posession, and I have probably close to 12,000km on it since i put it on the car in May.
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Would this problem not have presented itself when it were warm out as well though Carrizog?
Pump was not dismantled that far while in my posession, and I have probably close to 12,000km on it since i put it on the car in May.
my audi had like ~200 some odd psi compression, and it would start fine in the summer..
once winter hit, it didnt matter how much ether you used, it wouldnt run..
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and uh, my car has had a bit of a clod start issue too..
you have to give it throttle to get it to fire up cold.. it wont start without flooring it.
im beginning to think that my timing is retarded.. i dont have any air leaks in the fuel system anymore, im fairly confident that i fixed that part of my problems..
when i fire it up, i glow for 10 seconds, then hit the key and it stumbles and misses for roughly 5 seconds, then clears up and runs fine..
it sounds like it fires up on 2-3 cylinders, and if you crank enough without hitting the throttle, eventually it will start up and idle ROUGH.
it POURS SMOKE when its stumbling and missing.. then the smoke clears up, and it runs just like nothing is wrong.. it pours grey smoke, not white, when you fire it up cold..
once it has the SLIGHTEST amount of heat built up, it fires up fine tho..
never had any starting issues while this engine was still in my rabbit, but then i had to pull the pump, and change the bracket. dont have a pump timing indicator..
thinking its my timing, what do you guys think?
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Slacken mounting bolts for pump, and start her up whilst cold.
Adjust timing of pump during this misfire period.
Increase revs if neccessarywhilst doing this to keep her running.
If there is no sweet spot/region, then get a different set of injectors. Rerun test.
Still no good, then change pump. Rerun test
Test has to be done whilst problem occurring...
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Mark, Hillbilly tuning 101 eh?
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Slacken mounting bolts for pump, and start her up whilst cold.
Adjust timing of pump during this misfire period.
Increase revs if neccessarywhilst doing this to keep her running.
If there is no sweet spot/region, then get a different set of injectors. Rerun test.
Still no good, then change pump. Rerun test
Test has to be done whilst problem occurring...
it wont run on its own while its running crappy.. and it only runs crappy for about 5 seconds, then smooths out.
i dont see how it could be an injector problem.. i had this engine running PEFRECT in my mk1..
i could glow the plugs for 8 seconds, pull the advance, and fire it right up.. no throttle at all.
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Then to use Mark's method you best be fast. Not just good.
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Slacken mounting bolts for pump, and start her up whilst cold.
Adjust timing of pump during this misfire period.
Increase revs if neccessarywhilst doing this to keep her running.
If there is no sweet spot/region, then get a different set of injectors. Rerun test.
Still no good, then change pump. Rerun test
Test has to be done whilst problem occurring...
it wont run on its own while its running crappy.. and it only runs crappy for about 5 seconds, then smooths out.
i dont see how it could be an injector problem.. i had this engine running PEFRECT in my mk1..
i couldglow the plugs for 8 seconds, pull the advance, and fire it right up.. no throttle at all.
Well... There are fellow members who'd love 5 seconds of crappy ness, in exchange for their 60 seconds plus ;)
Injectors that misbehave when cold only are commonplace.
It can be crud, but quite likely physical distortion of the nozzle holder from overtightening at some stage. Upon dissembly, burnish patches can sometimes be seen on the needle's shaft.
My research informs me that rotating needles in their nozzles once run-in during servicing can lead to temporary degradation of operation again for a while.The finer the quality of the nozzle the more suseptable.
You could do a pop test at the start of the day, as that may show it up, as 5 seconds equates to some 50+ operations to 'free itself, if it is an injector issue...
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Plz chk cmprssn, report yer findings too! Others may have a similar problem and the info would be helpful.
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BW FRIG OK! lol ;)
I will pull the injectors, do a comp test, and then replace with different injectors depending on my findings.
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All this for 5 seconds of crappiness? You have to be kidding!
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Yeah kev, its still a diesel..
If it started right up and ran fine in the cold it wouldn't be an indirect injected compression ignition engine ;)
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yee haw i haven't been following this thread, but this morning my car started up no problem soon as the key was turned with only a single run of the fast glow plugs and the advance knob pulled, i didn't think much of it until i checked the weather and saw it was below 15 degrees this morning. stock 81 rabbit 127k miles with a yellow dot pump at 1.13mm. no smoking and no missing 15w-40 rotella non synth
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my injectors are fine.. they never got over tightened. the only time ive taken them out, is when i swapped heads, and ive had it running darn near perfect with that head/injectors...
this problem arose when i pulled my engine, and subsequently pulled my pump to swap brackets.. i dont have a timing gauge to check with, but im buying one on friday.. its the ONLY tool im missing in my arsenal..
im actually gonna bump my timing up a pencil line width, and see if i can get it to fire up any better.. it was WAY way advanced when i put the pump back on there, soo advanced that retarding the timing made it rev up to where it usually idled..
im still not thinking its injectors, and i KNOW my compression is not stellar, this is the engine i heat seized.. the scoring in the bores was almost un-detectable..
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On the subject of testing compression. I've always been told to do this after the engine is warm, but for our diesels. especially because it's a cold start issue, wouldn't it make sense to test while the engine is cold. Does that seem to make sense?
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On the subject of testing compression. I've always been told to do this after the engine is warm, but for our diesels. especially because it's a cold start issue, wouldn't it make sense to test while the engine is cold. Does that seem to make sense?
thats what i would be leaning towards..
i bet my audi ALMOST had acceptable compression when it was warm..
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I compression check cold as you say it is the problem area when starting up. Unless it is hot. If cold compression is low I like to know that because I know it will come up a bit as soon as it gets warm.
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So for compression testing.. would i be wise to have all the injectors out of the motor?
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So for compression testing.. would i be wise to have all the injectors out of the motor?
That's how it's done, but not how your car does it when starting. So doing it with them out gives a figure that corresponds only with a running engine, and decelerating at that. However it is a good figure to make comparison with other's engines who do not have a starting issue.
RE your cold start pullL
The lever is shaped like a wedge on it's internal end, and physically pushes the advance piston the 5 degrees crank. However it is only 5 dgrees of advance whilst cranking.
This is because the pneumatic advance from the pump pressure starts operating around 350rpm, and at idle has used up perhaps 2 to 3 degrees of the advance.
Thus pushing and pulling on the c/s handle should be easier with engine running, and on the earlier pumps, hard to notice the running effect.
If push and pull are same stiffness, then internal pressures may be too high for the pump. If no change in stiffnes of pull fron engine off to engine on then internal pressures may be too low.
There are, naturally, always other possible other reasons.
Later pumps with some further linkage also raise the engine revs. Not sure if this is to reduce owners concerns of not seeing much or to improve initial running.
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Mark,
From my somehwat limited yet very recent experience with the internals of these pumps, I don't see how the cold start lever could be affected by pump pressures.. It physically turns the ring that the rollers for the cam ride on, and is not attached to anything? Hmm but there is a small port on the front side of the cold start piston.. Which probably pushes back against it eh? Interesting.
Anyway, I have a 91 na pump lid on the 91 or 92 TD pump body and it has the fast idle as well as the advance lever. The lever is slightly easier whilst running, so much that it is smoother if anything. I can hear it physically bumping idle and a little more clack, so its advancing for sure.
Here's an interesting thought I just had, if I start the car cold handle in.. Ill need to be on the peddle a bit to keep it high enough to not stall. It will still smoke and miss, and if I pull the handle it all sort of gets less (smoke and stumble).. But still misses.
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Mark,
From my somehwat limited yet very recent experience with the internals of these pumps, I don't see how the cold start lever could be affected by pump pressures.. It physically turns the ring that the rollers for the cam ride on, and is not attached to anything? Hmm but there is a small port on the front side of the cold start piston.. Which probably pushes back against it eh? Interesting.
Anyway, I have a 91 na pump lid on the 91 or 92 TD pump body and it has the fast idle as well as the advance lever. The lever is slightly easier whilst running, so much that it is smoother if anything. I can hear it physically bumping idle and a little more clack, so its advancing for sure.
Here's an interesting thought I just had, if I start the car cold handle in.. Ill need to be on the peddle a bit to keep it high enough to not stall. It will still smoke and miss, and if I pull the handle it all sort of gets less (smoke and stumble).. But still misses.
For one moment you had me worried I was shooting from the hip... :o
See middle of bottom left paragraph.
Lever should get easier either way as dynamic advance takes over.
As usual the modern improvement makes testing harder for the common man ::)
(http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/5990/imgp1419.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/862/imgp1419.jpg/)
(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6333/imgp1421x.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/imgp1421x.jpg/)
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Lever does get easier, and it smoothes out as I raise rpms.. meaning more advance.. might I have it set too far retarded?
No i tried at 1.00mm as well, and it clacked like a mofo! but i think i had a fuel leak then.. so maybe i should bump her back to 1.00mm and see whats up??
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Not to get off topic -39° this morning (colder if you include wind chill) - two block heaters, one at either end of the block. Don't even need to use the glow plugs - fires right up on first crank! (Old 90 1.6 n/a golf) That is after 2 to 2 1/2 hrs being plugged in...
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Not to get off topic -39° this morning (colder if you include wind chill) - two block heaters, one at either end of the block. Don't even need to use the glow plugs - fires right up on first crank! (Old 90 1.6 n/a golf) That is after 2 to 2 1/2 hrs being plugged in...
Thats pretty awesome man, I feel confident I could start my car in the same weather with TWO block h eaters! lol!
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Anyway, I have a 91 na pump lid on the 91 or 92 TD pump body
That could be your issue. You are missing a stop for the fulcrum lever, but I think it would only effect starting, not running cold.
Can someone explain to me the business of this pintle in the compression tester and it being in different places effecting compression? I'm not getting my head around it.
Also, compression numbers on a cold engine are nearly useless (but not quite) because there is no spec on it so you have no idea what to aim for.
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like imagine an injector, with its flat face with the needle. looking at the end of the compression nozzle, the needle is way up in the "injector" adding like the size of a glow plug to the combustion chamber
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Anyway, I have a 91 na pump lid on the 91 or 92 TD pump body
That could be your issue. You are missing a stop for the fulcrum lever, but I think it would only effect starting, not running cold.
Can someone explain to me the business of this pintle in the compression tester and it being in different places effecting compression? I'm not getting my head around it.
Also, compression numbers on a cold engine are nearly useless (but not quite) because there is no spec on it so you have no idea what to aim for.
Hmm there are two fora running amost dentical threads v confusing ;D
Some compression testers have a pressure release valve down by the mock injector, and some have this valve up by the gauge. The latter one must have a mini one-way deliveryvalve down at the mock injector end that seals the pressure in the gauge and the tubing.
All airspace below this ie in the mock injector forms part of the combustion chamber and , naturally reexpands as the engine piston drops. Thus the bigger that additional space, the lower the maximum gauge reading will be. Cheaper adaptors aparently forget this problem :o
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Prothe adapter and gauge ;) He's just trying to make money too.. lol I'll add like %5 to my readings ;).
Dunno Tyler, been running this pump this way daily since June.
The fact that I can smooth it out with a little peddle and the cold start.. leads me to believe I could stand maybe going back up to 1.00mm or higher..?
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What I'm not getting about the compression tester is regardless of where the pintle is, all space above and below it has to get to 500psi (or whatever) at some point in order for the gauge to read it. All that air above and below the pintle needs to be compressed to the same psi. Op, There it is. Thanks guys.
Like I said 8v, I am doubtful that the pump combo was your issue.
I think the fact that more RPMs help is an indication of a compression issue because the higher RPMs will cause higher compression.
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Crapp. well I guess i gotta get on that compression check eh?
Hmm really Tyler? I was just meaning like, upping 200rpms.. could that still up the compression that much? So maybe i just need to up my idle then and live with it?
Going off the idle adjustment.. and that your helping this thread, and know some stuffs.. Can you help me a tad?
I have messed with every external setting of my pump so much.. I will try and get a picture of all my adjustments so you can see what I mean tomorrow..
I have a solid main spring in the governor, the throttle one spline ahead/behind whichever was the one to do. The top min throttle screw backed out as far as possible, the side idle adjustment out as far as possible, and the max fuel screw in as far as possible before it hangs rpms...
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What I'm not getting about the compression tester is regardless of where the pintle is, all space above and below it has to get to 500psi (or whatever) at some point in order for the gauge to read it. All that air above and below the pintle needs to be compressed to the same psi. Op, There it is. Thanks guys.
Sorry does this mean you understsand the process or not?
Lets assume a brand new perfect engine that is said to be 500 psi on compression. Lets guess that is with a figure of 6ccs of air space. You now attach you gauge with a foot long tube on to where the injector goes. The whole thing is hollow, so doubles the effective airspace. Cranking engine therefore causes the gauge to read about 250 psi, before dropping back down to zero, just like an engine with the injector in. Repeat and it goes back upto 250, but no more, and again drops back as the piston goes down.
Now fit a little flap valve right next to the injector sized fitting. Lets wish for this fitting to be solid, except for a capilliary hole down the middle, which allows high pressure air to rush through but doesn't amout to much air space. Turning engine over will again only charge everything up to that 250psi. However as the piston drops, the gauge and all the air above the valve still reads 250psi because of the oneway valve.
The piston comes up for another go. Now the valve acts like a brick wall and cannot open until the chamber reaches 250psi. This pressure will be reached becuse we know that the normal sized chamber on our good engine reaches 500psi at TDC. We reach 250psi when piston is only half way up the bore. At this point the oneway valve begins to float in limbo as it is subject to 250psi on both sides.
Now the big chamber that includes the gauge and hose, is seeing the 250psi, yet the piston still has 250psi worth of compression left to travel, only again it is having to compress twice the chamber size. Thus for the final half of the stroke the gauge rises approximately half of the difference, say 125psi, so now the gauge is reading 250 +125, or 375psi.
On the next cycle the gauge maygo up about another 60psi. This is repeated in diminishing amounts, until you are pretty close to true compression pressures.
Now imagine you get an adaptor the size of a cotton reel and an internal bore you could stick you thumb in for $2. Now because that volume is underneath the oneway valve, the effective compression chamber always adds that on to the ebb and flow of the compression , and so the gauge never reads above this new enlarged effective chamber size. Yet the actual gauge may be accurate...
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Thank you Mark. I wasn't meaning to sound terribly sarcastic in my last post, I actually did understand it the way you guys were saying it earlier. Your explanation just verifies my reasoning, which helps.
Now if anyone knows where to get the pintle for a snap-on compression tester mine would actually be useful. No wonder all my engines had low compression ::)
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well, i advanced my timing, and fixed all my air leaks in the fuel system, and now i can glow for 8-10 seconds, pull the CS advance, and hit the key and it fires right up without applying throttle! if its REALLY COLD (20*f is really cold here) i usually have to glow for 15, sometimes 20 seconds before i fire it, then with some afterglow also, until the engine smooths out, and runs nice/doesnt buck..
so, for me, it was an easy solution.. i figured it would have been anyways, because it ALWAYS started PERFECT in my rabbit.. then i did the swap, and it didnt run good at all!
wish i had a dial indicator adapter so i could check my timing tho. i know its very close, timing wise tho, because it starts nice, and has GREAT power.. that could have been from the recent addition of a mitsu starion intercooler tho.. it fits, and quite nicely i might add, but its still HUGE.. i had to swap from a mk2 a/c radiator, to an 84 rabbit doesel non a/c radiator..
if i were gonna do it over again, i would use an even smaller intercooler than the starion unit.
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I did video of a cold start of my polo Td in -7 deg C.....
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ny5nR71BeE
Lots of smoke!!