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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: R.O.R-2.0 on December 13, 2011, 02:43:59 pm
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ok, for the longest time i thought the rev limit of these engines was 4800revs for the n/a, and 4850 for the TD..
now someone says that giles told them that the limit of the stock governor is 5300 for the n/a, and 5350 for the TD..
i have a few manuals that also claim the 4800/4850 rev limit also..
so, witch is it?
i have a shimmed governor, and i have a PRETTY HARD TIME finding 5350 rpms.. i just dont see it possible to be that high on a stock governor.
i KNOW FOR A FACT that the top speed of a stock rabbit diesel is ~85mph w/ a GC 4 spd trans.. and thats going down hill, with the wind..
with 155/80/13 tires, that translates out to 4735 rpms, witch would go right along with a 4800 rev limit..
anyways, whos right?
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When I said 5300rpms I was not talking top gear at WOT. I stated the terms in which a stock engine can reach 5300rpms, in neutral foot to the floor. Absolute as high as it will allow with the stock governor and stock pump settings.
I find it hard to believe that your modified engine with modified governor can not reach above 5000rpms. I have gps speed verified and then calculated exact rpm's of the motor with scirocco gear up.org, and I have had my engine (on a regular basis) to over 5500rpms, in second gear with load. My engine being a stock 1.6 na with bigger CAI and straight through exhaust. Fully shimmed solid governor as well.
What you have more than likely read is that BY 4800 rpms on the stock governor fueling is cut to an abysmal %80 of normal.
Do you have a GPS? Without an accurate measure of your speed and or engine rpm, I can't hold your acclaims accountable. ;)
Unfortunately I am on my phone, so I cannot provide you with the emails from Giles..
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When I said 5300rpms I was not talking top gear at WOT. I stated the terms in which a stock engine can reach 5300rpms, in neutral foot to the floor. Absolute as high as it will allow with the stock governor and stock pump settings.
I find it hard to believe that your modified engine with modified governor can not reach above 5000rpms. I have gps speed verified and then calculated exact rpm's of the motor with scirocco gear up.org, and I have had my engine (on a regular basis) to over 5500rpms, in second gear with load. My engine being a stock 1.6 na with bigger CAI and straight through exhaust. Fully shimmed solid governor as well.
What you have more than likely read is that BY 4800 rpms on the stock governor fueling is cut to an abysmal %80 of normal.
Do you have a GPS? Without an accurate measure of your speed and or engine rpm, I can't hold your acclaims accountable. ;)
Unfortunately I am on my phone, so I cannot provide you with the emails from Giles..
I HAVE A GPS AND ACCURATE TACH
i know what my engine turns. and 5500 is into roller skipping territory. the power will go absolutely FLAT.
idk how you can turn 5500 with a N/A, but i can barely get there with a BUILT TD..
again, i have a GPS i know to be accurate, and an autometer sport comp tach.. so, my numbers are pretty undisputeable, unless you wanna argue with my tach..
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No sir, I do not wish to dispute what you know to be true. As we all know.. That is what will set you off. :p lol
Have you run the engine up to 5000+ in neutral? If the stock setting that you say is 4800 why is 5000+ not achievable in your mind with a modified low km pump?
Top gear wot is hardly a good test to see max rpm, as max rpm is not easily achieved when yuo have to be pushing wind and over coming other forces as well.
Can you do a 2nd gear
pull? And post your findings? Little to no wind resistance, and using a GPS to find exact speed with the online calculator to determine %100 accurate rpm. Sorry I forgot about your tach pickup man.
Can we get a few people to try this? We can get a few results up eh?
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It's true with out a load they will rev higher I think this may even be in the bently I'm also pretty sure that the max rpm for all the 1.6s are listed as being above 5000. Ive never seen any solid proof of a certain rpm limit. I've heard of people getting close to 7k but I've never seen any solid proof of it. Check out some of the idi dyno plots a lot of them make good power up to atleast5500 I wouldn't think they suddenly start skipping there after making good power but it's also so many variables that could effect it such as springs
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVGRvUUv1wQ&feature=related
Giles recorded this in his shop, you can see our very own Tyler (burn_your_money) in his polo shirt ;). I do believe it was his car as well, iirc.
As you can see on a bone stock 1.6 with 205k kms he was able to achieve 4875~ in 3rd gear at WOT with load. Take the load away and another few hundred rpm's would easily be achievable.
From what I have heard roller skipping does not occur until above 6000 rpms.
ALSO look at that, an na doesnt actually make 52hp.. 35hp... sadd
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Yeah without a load they spin pretty fast, I don't think the loss of power is due to rollers skipping but rather the governor cuts off the fueling and so you won't have enough power to spin fast woth load.
I think the 1.6D is 5400 rpm and the 1.5D is 5600 rpm with the 1.6TD at 5200ish. That's when the governor cuts fuel.
I would think that if the rollers skipped something would fall out of place and the IP would self destruct.
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A GPS is not an accurate speedo over short distances. Perhaps over 20 miles, but the 10 meter built in error in the worlds best system makes instantaneous readings suspect.
As I have said before, not all VW IDIs nose over at 80 mph. I have driven a large number of these cars and some stockers with 4 speeds will do 100 and many will do close to 90, with flow screw and timing mods on a fresh motor. At 275 psi compression, not so much. At 450+ its another matter.
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A GPS is not an accurate speedo over short distances. Perhaps over 20 miles, but the 10 meter built in error in the worlds best system makes instantaneous readings suspect.
As I have said before, not all VW IDIs nose over at 80 mph. I have driven a large number of these cars and some stockers with 4 speeds will do 100 and many will do close to 90, with flow screw and timing mods on a fresh motor. At 275 psi compression, not so much. At 450+ its another matter.
theres a few different 4 speeds, if you didnt know..
one of the tallest geared trannies is actually a 4 speed.
but yea, theres a couple high geared trannies, and a couple REALLY LOW GEARED trannies..
i was referring to the really low geared GC 4spd transmixer.. if you were going 100mph with a GC, your turning ~5600rpms..
but 100mph is easy with something like a GL, or 4A 4spd.. they have quite high gears.. its like driving a wide ratio 5 spd trans with a blown up 4th gear. thats the best way i can describe driving a long ratio 4spd.
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There isn't room for things to fall out of place, simply the plunger would not come back down fast enough to be pushed back out to inject to the next cylinder.
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There isn't room for things to fall out of place, simply the plunger would not come back down fast enough to be pushed back out to inject to the next cylinder.
yup.. well put.
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Bentley factory specs for engine rpm.
77-80 = 5500-5600 rpm
81-83 except turbo diesel = 5300-5400 rpm
83 turbo diesel only = 5050-5150 rpm
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The Bentley lists the max rpm for the various engines. IIRC, non-turbo 1.6 is 5300 and you can definitely get a stock engine to rev that high in gear. I've done it. The little dots on the speedo represent speed for max rpm for a given gear with stock size tires.
pfft, i can pass those dots with ease..i can almost DOUBLE the reccomended speed of the dots.. lol.
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and thank you all, for the numbers..
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and thank you all, for the numbers..
Here is another fresh test number. I just did this not 10 minutes ago.
Car fully warmed up and up to operating temperatures, 2nd gear pull with the GPS on for my speed. I was able to hit 81km/h and it still had more.. but she does have just over 310k kms on it.. so i didn't want to push it.
81km/h with my tire combo of 185/60/14 nets me 5614 rpm's at that speed in 2nd gear.
Kev your AUG trans has the same 2nd gear but the lower final.. so to reach the same rpm you would need to do 85 km/h or 53mph in 2nd gear. We both have modified governors so its achievable for sure.. no way your tellin me you car has issues doing over 5200 rpms in gear.. it should be able to spin up way higher in neutral.
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and thank you all, for the numbers..
Here is another fresh test number. I just did this not 10 minutes ago.
Car fully warmed up and up to operating temperatures, 2nd gear pull with the GPS on for my speed. I was able to hit 81km/h and it still had more.. but she does have just over 310k kms on it.. so i didn't want to push it.
81km/h with my tire combo of 185/60/14 nets me 5614 rpm's at that speed in 2nd gear.
Kev your AUG trans has the same 2nd gear but the lower final.. so to reach the same rpm you would need to do 85 km/h or 53mph in 2nd gear. We both have modified governors so its achievable for sure.. no way your tellin me you car has issues doing over 5200 rpms in gear.. it should be able to spin up way higher in neutral.
my car will go almost 60mph in 2nd gear. i need to figure out where my in-accuracies are coming from..
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AGS with 3.67 final. 50mph with Giles pump was very attainable. I usually shifted as it didn't make power after that, but to find that out I think I did spin it to 56mph or so. Mine wouldn't do 60mph in 2nd no matter what. Giles told me the gov is pretty much disabled on my pump...but I think he does it with a little more sophisticated stuff than 2 hex nuts like I did on my N/A pump.
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What are your two's tire sizes? Plug that info in this this and tell me what rpm you had that at in 2nd gear.
http://www.scirocco.org/gears/
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ok, i should have said, my car will go a little more than 55mph in 2nd..
my engine spins 5750 revs, in neutral, foot to floor (5 psi boost too!)
i have a disabled governor in my pump. its shimmed solid. so the rollers gotta be skipping..
i have 185/60/14s also, 3.67 final drive, AUG trans. GOD ITS FUN WITH CLOSE GEARS.
every time you shift, it wants to burn the tires.. sometimes its HARD to get the car to hook up in 1st/2nd/3rd gear..
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185-60-r14
5788 rpm
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Safe to assume rollers start skipping just after 5800 on a stock (not including governor) pump then?
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Safe to assume rollers start skipping just after 5800 on a stock (not including governor) pump then?
i would think soo..
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What RPM do valves float at? Maybe they could be a limiting factor before the IP
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I don't know about 1.6's, but my 1.9 has the same dual valve springs as the gassers which I know people run 7000rpm on stock valvetrain, so that shouldn't be limiting
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stock 1.6/1.7 should easily be able to do 7000 stock as Rado says..
I know I had my 1.7 EN Gas up to and above its redline of 64-6500, with using a wiper relay instead of a fuel pump one :) lol
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I think the 1.8 8v gassers rev limit to 6500-7200 (don't quote that 8)) depending on if it's CIS, CIS-E or digifant. The 1.6D has dual valve springs so I would think the valves would be fine at the same rpm.
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I think the 1.8 8v gassers rev limit to 6500-7200 (don't quote that 8)) depending on if it's CIS, CIS-E or digifant. The 1.6D has dual valve springs so I would think the valves would be fine at the same rpm.
~6250 rpms is the rev limit for LOTS of 1.8 gassers.
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I think the 1.8 8v gassers rev limit to 6500-7200 (don't quote that 8)) depending on if it's CIS, CIS-E or digifant. The 1.6D has dual valve springs so I would think the valves would be fine at the same rpm.
~6250 rpms is the rev limit for LOTS of 1.8 gassers.
From the bentley.
Engine RPM limit
Code HT: 6200-6400
Code RD: 6570-6630
Code PL 16V: 7200-7300
Codes RV and PF: 6500
Code 9A 2.0L 16V: 6800
I've only dealt with 1.8 8V's and the redline on them was 6250 so you were partway right ;D.
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I think the 1.8 8v gassers rev limit to 6500-7200 (don't quote that 8)) depending on if it's CIS, CIS-E or digifant. The 1.6D has dual valve springs so I would think the valves would be fine at the same rpm.
~6250 rpms is the rev limit for LOTS of 1.8 gassers.
From the bentley.
Engine RPM limit
Code HT: 6200-6400
Code RD: 6570-6630
Code PL 16V: 7200-7300
Codes RV and PF: 6500
Code 9A 2.0L 16V: 6800
I've only dealt with 1.8 8V's and the redline on them was 6250 so you were partway right ;D.
thats why i said LOTS of 1.8s had a 6250 rev limit. most of what ive owned were HT's and GX's (CIS-E & CIS-Lambda)
ive never seen a digifant car that would actually turn 6500 either..
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Girlfriends got a 90 RV motor behind an 010 3spd. 2nd gear will haul its ass up passed redline (6500) till about 6800.. Thats when i push the stick to 3rd ;)
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Hi,
regarding the gasser, the 1.8 ltr. mk1 gti engine dx, could rev stock above 7000 rpm,
my dx rev all up to 7500 rpm, but i think to remeber that stock redline was 7200 rpm.
Here is a video of my aaz (in a golf mkII) wringed all out to max rev. I have to say that the rev counter could be not
highly accurate, but by looking at the speedo it fits good. Its a CTN (02a) engine and 205/50/15 tires. It has a K14
charger and a 7mm chimed governor.
I hit ~50 km/h in first and ~90 km/h in second, with is both between 5400 rpm and 5500 rpm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KA3SsWCBtE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Best Regards
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Hi,
regarding the gasser, the 1.8 ltr. mk1 gti engine dx, could rev stock above 7000 rpm,
my dx rev all up to 7500 rpm, but i think to remeber that stock redline was 7200 rpm.
Here is a video of my aaz (in a golf mkII) wringed all out to max rev. I have to say that the rev counter could be not
highly accurate, but by looking at the speedo it fits good. Its a CTN (02a) engine and 205/50/15 tires. It has a K14
charger and a 7mm chimed governor.
I hit ~50 km/h in first and ~90 km/h in second, with is both between 5400 rpm and 5500 rpm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KA3SsWCBtE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Best Regards
whats a DX?
cause we never got one in north america..
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Hi,
the dx is the (famous) 1.8 ltr. golf gti (mk1) engine with 82 kW (112hp).
Here can you find nearly all Golf engines with basis data:
http://www.doppel-wobber.de/wbb2/Information_79_VW-Golf-Motoren.html
Greets
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Hi,
the dx is the (famous) 1.8 ltr. golf gti (mk1) engine with 82 kW (112hp).
Here can you find nearly all Golf engines with basis data:
http://www.doppel-wobber.de/wbb2/Information_79_VW-Golf-Motoren.html
Greets
thats why we never got it, was germany only..
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Sounds like a great engine for the mk1 though :)
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Sounds like a great engine for the mk1 though :)
16v... thats all i got to say.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOTjdRvGdsI&feature=related
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOTjdRvGdsI&feature=related
fuel cut was around 54-5500? is that what he said at the end?
thats about what i experience too.. and it flat quits pulling by 5750..
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it sounded like 6400-6500 to me but the quality is not good if its thats high that would be really really interesting and if we could make power even in the high 5k's power capability would jump considerably
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it sounded like 6400-6500 to me but the quality is not good if its thats high that would be really really interesting and if we could make power even in the high 5k's power capability would jump considerably
my car pulls GOOD to 5250 or so.
i think the fuel cut was around 5500, if it was just cutting fuel at 6500, it would be enough to get the engine to 7000 revs in neutral, and we all know that aint possible..
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He said 64-6500.
Also gotta remember this is a "superpump" But Giles did it right there on video.. so it is possible.
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On Dave's Franken engine he had good power to nearly 5500 on his dyno u can see. The limiting factor could be the rate at which the fuel burns or even just the length of the injection process in the 1.6td sae term paper there's a graph showing the start and end of injection vs rpm. I would think this could be helped with a bigger plunger maybe. Giles just shows the pump works properly up to that speed. It'd be amazing if a 1.6 could make power up there and it'd be radical if a 1.9 did
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Ahh good point Trev, very good point. Just because the pump is capable of pushing fuel to 6500 doesn't mean the engine is capable of burning fuel at 6500.. I wonder if a slightly lighter more volatile fuel would make a difference? With lubricity taken in to account as well.
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He said 64-6500.
Also gotta remember this is a "superpump" But Giles did it right there on video.. so it is possible.
giles has gotta put stiffer camplate springs in there if hes getting 1000 rpms more power out of the pump..
like i said, i have a basically brand new pump, everything is right, it runs awesome. but it still will only spin 5750 rpms with my foot to THE FLOOR in neutral.. it makes 5 psi with the rollers skipping.. wonder what kinda power/boost it would make if it could pull another 1000 revs?
again, my governor is shimmed solid.. theres no way my governor is working, and limiting engine speeds to 5750 revs..
yes, eventually, as you spin more and more RPMs, the flame speed of diesel is exceeded by the speed of the engine.. read as: diesel is still burning as it is exhausted from the engine.. a bigger plunger may help to get the fuel in there quicker, but idk if that bigger plunger is going to help any with an engine that is exceeding the burn speed of diesel..
if we want more power up high, we MAY need to figure out some sort of injectable that burns relatively fast, but are controllable!
lets do some acetylene injection!!
(i imagine if someone in the states did acetylene injection on one of their engines, i imagine the head would leave the block, and it would probably be Catlin, Matt, Eddy, or Jeremy that ended up finding the head)
diesel burns slow, thats why it makes soo much more torque..
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Ahh good point Trev, very good point. Just because the pump is capable of pushing fuel to 6500 doesn't mean the engine is capable of burning fuel at 6500.. I wonder if a slightly lighter more volatile fuel would make a difference? With lubricity taken in to account as well.
i think you and i are on the same track of thought here buddy!
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Here is diagramm whichs shows stock fuel cutting at vw injection pumps:
(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9063/espkennlinientd.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/espkennlinientd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Best Regards
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yes, eventually, as you spin more and more RPMs, the flame speed of diesel is exceeded by the speed of the engine.. read as: diesel is still burning as it is exhausted from the engine.. a bigger plunger may help to get the fuel in there quicker, but idk if that bigger plunger is going to help any with an engine that is exceeding the burn speed of diesel..
Hi again,
from my point of view, you can delete the "may" regarding the biger plunger. With the stock camplate and the stock plunger you can not effect the massflow (fuel) vs. time fictures. When the stock internals are good for 75 hp at 4500 rpm, is getting worse in the moment when you increasing the overall fuel amount, which is necessary if you want to make more power. In fact what happends is, that even if the dynamic timing is working properly (stock pump does this up to ~4500 rpm) the time for full injection mass is getting longer and longer, which getting more important as higher yoe revs, as you still inject, even when the piston is nearly at the botton dead center. Besides burning this "late" fuel does not make any power, you also massive increase you egts and grill your turbo.
If you want to make good power, go ahead with 12 mm plunger and stock camplate or 9 mm plunger and DI camplate and you will see, that you can get max. power at less than 3500 rpm, as the efficiency with higher fuel massflow is that much improved, that you running into stock flow capacity limittations of the cylinder head (and also for stock turbos). If you wand to make good power at high rpms, you have to improve, flow capacity of the turbo and the cylinderhead first and also have to do some work on the advance timing figure of the injection pump.
Please read "you have" and "if you wand" not personal, it is due to my limited english that it sound a bit harsh. ::)
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
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i agree on the timing being one limiting factor.
yes,diesel burns slow but if we could advance the timing we could have extra time to burn it completely.
advance piston shaving and better springs will alow that,could we shave the pump body to allow for more travel?
i dont know for how much degrees could we gain doing that mods to the pump any degree up top is good.
how much does a tdi pump advance?isnt it similar in body to the mech ones?
one could mesure the insides and go from there... ???
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Hi,
i have done all that allready (teyt is in german):
http://www.golf1.info/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=61668&pageNo=1
but from my actual point of view, the hardcore mod (like enlarge casing channel)
is not necessary.
The stock timing has a stroke of 8,9 mm, which is limited due to the front cover plate.
This means 10,4 ° rotation angle (injection pump) or 20,8° rotating angle (crank shaft).
By using constant 0,001s for ignition lag, this means advance timing up to ~4500 rpm.
My stock spring has had a free length of 35,2 mm and a solid length of 21,0 mm.
My pre-stressing was 2,2 mm together with 3,2 mm shims (all together), so the max.
timing stroke, limited due to the solid length of the spring would has been 12 mm.
In my first attempt, i have shorten the timing piston on both ends, have move the
static position 3,0 mm in direction of the choke lever and used the front cover cap
and spring of a VP37 pump, which has given a stroke of 12,7 mm (up to 5900 rpm).
But if you shorten the timing piston on both sides this will massive increase leakage, so
that the inner pump pressure is high depending on the position of the piston and thereby
not stable, which will bring serious timing (running) issues.
So at least i have just shorten the choke lever side of the timing piston, as leakage to
that side will not have any impact. By doing this, you change the static position of the
timing piston and directly increase the stroke posibilities, what you have to do further is
to readjust the spring pre-stressing to stock level. You can find something around 3 mm
of extra stroke and this is enough for everthing this side of super crazy short stroke high
reving 1,5 super turbodiesel.
So as summary from my side, increase stroke due to shorten the piston from the choke side,
readjust the spring pre-stress and everything is fine.
Best Regards
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Very informative and very interesting
A few thoughts I have had is that it makes sense that a lower compression ratio will help with higher rpm power because it will allow more timing advance with out pinging
Also on Dave's build he dynoed with Mercedes nozzles and made less power I am curious if this is due to the difference in the prechamber design or if it is because the Mercedes nozzle needs a larger plunger to match its increased flow. Or if he lost power because the Mercedes nozzle injected the fuel more quickly and earlier because of a higher flow rate thus causing advanced timing
Also something I thought id mention on top of diesel burning more slowly it also must mix with air and combust all in one process where gasoline has already been mixed with the air long before tdc
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Ahh good point Trev, very good point. Just because the pump is capable of pushing fuel to 6500 doesn't mean the engine is capable of burning fuel at 6500.. I wonder if a slightly lighter more volatile fuel would make a difference? With lubricity taken in to account as well.
i think you and i are on the same track of thought here buddy!
Haven't u been on that track with your abf haha
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Hi again,
i also think, that the rev limit for diesel are more due to that direct injection fact, as due to the lower burning speed of diesel, even
if i have to say that i have never made the math for that. Did someone know what the redline of actual direct injection gasser is?
I have also thought that lower compression will allow more advance timing or better say higher boost pressure, as i have always read
this everywhere regarding turbo engines. But i came to the point, that i start to think how pinging should happend in our direct injection
engines (either DI or IDI), as we just inject the fuel in the moment we wand it to burn.
As i mention, from my actual knowing (experience) even if you enable massive advance timing, you will not get high power with useable
efficiency at high revs. The only way to get that, is to also highly decrease injection time by simultaneous increase injection flow.
But this is just my point of view and i do not insist to be right.
Best Regards
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Ahh good point Trev, very good point. Just because the pump is capable of pushing fuel to 6500 doesn't mean the engine is capable of burning fuel at 6500.. I wonder if a slightly lighter more volatile fuel would make a difference? With lubricity taken in to account as well.
i think you and i are on the same track of thought here buddy!
Haven't u been on that track with your abf haha
ABF got put on the back burner again. my diesel is blown up, and i only got 1/3 of the money i was supposed to be getting..
every time i get close to making my jetta driveable again, something ALWAYS goes wrong.. ive been trying to get my jetta back on the road for almost 4 years now. im about ready to just give up on it since i can never spend any time or money on it..
and how do you get a diesel to ping? ive always been under the impression that you couldnt get a diesel to ping, because it is basically pinging the whole time its running. pinging is just detonation, and diesels run off detonation. its there only form of ignition..
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Pinging as in overly advanced timing my dad once ran too much kerosene to aid cold starting. And while were on a trip to Philly if he tried to accelerate it would act and sound like a pinging gas engine. Or an overly advanced diesel. But what I meant was that with less compression the air won't get as hot as soon so that will open the window for more time for fuel to be injected. But like was said really increased fuel flow is needed but even that may not help cause the fuel still needs time to mix and burn. What happened to your rabbit?
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ABF got put on the back burner again. my diesel is blown up, and i only got 1/3 of the money i was supposed to be getting..
every time i get close to making my jetta driveable again, something ALWAYS goes wrong.. ive been trying to get my jetta back on the road for almost 4 years now. im about ready to just give up on it since i can never spend any time or money on it..
and how do you get a diesel to ping? ive always been under the impression that you couldnt get a diesel to ping, because it is basically pinging the whole time its running. pinging is just detonation, and diesels run off detonation. its there only form of ignition..
Sounds like you have my luck. I don't think I have driven mine an entire year yet since I got it, always something, and always something different.
Alleslowbuged, in your chart, are we looking at the entire mit LDA curve? Meaning at 3000 RPM is where fueling starts to be cut?
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(http://i.imgur.com/MeD9p.jpg)
i put the left cover(from land rover pump)to allow more travel.
ith this cover the spring would be loose,i put a schim so the spring would make contact to the cover.
what did you do?
left it loose?
another thing regarding injection more fuel on less time:bigger plunger.
but wont bigger plunger also limit rpm?
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I have read of bigger plungers limiting rpm because they break but I recall a discussion from tdi club where they said the problem had more to do with too low of flow injectors being used with the larger plunger. How true any of that is I don't know
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Pinging as in overly advanced timing my dad once ran too much kerosene to aid cold starting. And while were on a trip to Philly if he tried to accelerate it would act and sound like a pinging gas engine. Or an overly advanced diesel. But what I meant was that with less compression the air won't get as hot as soon so that will open the window for more time for fuel to be injected. But like was said really increased fuel flow is needed but even that may not help cause the fuel still needs time to mix and burn. What happened to your rabbit?
head crash. timing belt broke. yadda yadda. fun stuff..
was only blown up for 12 hours.. figured out i have a 12mm block in the car, so it has a TD head on it now..
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An interesting read Alleslowbuged...
I've not played with the pumps at all. It's so easy to loose driving licence over here :'(
With regards to that diagram, it looks like a cleaned up version of the SAE #820441 paper, which is an average of 23 TD pumps. Can you explain the meaning of the coloured points on the graphs which all lie on the outer limits of the range of pump results. Is the pump named on this diagram the one you are using?
If so I notice your physical measurements of the range of dynamic advance seem to correspond nicely with the range stated on that pump, namely VE4/9F2250R...
"The stock timing has a stroke of 8,9 mm, which is limited due to the front cover plate.
This means 10,4 ° rotation angle (injection pump) or 20,8° rotating angle (crank shaft).
By using constant 0,001s for ignition lag, this means advance timing up to ~4500 rpm."
As there are many VW pumps out there that are rated to 2500,[5000 crank] from 107's to AAZ ones, your research makes me think that they will have more dynamic advance to start with. Is this not true? If so why did you not use one of them?
Your reference to the pre-ignition of 1ms is interesting. Is that at the desired rated rpms?
From what I've read this pre-ignition phase is independant of the main burn, but actually shortens slightly under faster injection and higher combustion air pressures, probably due to increased temperatures. Does this make lowering general compression ratios counterproductive for top end speeds?
The main burn is almost purely linked to swirl rate, and so conveniently speeds up with rpm.
From what I've read, tapered needle injector nozzles add faster increasing volumes of fuel to the pre-injection compared with parallel needle types. AAZ adjustable pre-injections may be useful here, although I guess main burn wants to follow pre-ig ASAP...
Could a finer wire 'weaker' spring be used in the advance mechanism, but with a few coils cut off to strengthen and the whole spring stretched to the desired length not help with the range?
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oh yea, another thing.. i DEFINITELY had the rollers skipping in my pump yesterday, no questions.
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Hi,
@Mark,
the diagramm is not my own, i hve get it from a german turbodiesel forum, but can not remeber who has orginally measure the points.
So non of the measured pumps in the diagram was my pump, but both of the used pumps was stock for VW 1.6 IDI pumps.
I have also seen yesterday, that my measurement regarding the advance timing was agood fit with the diagramm (did check that before).
And also yes, i have also found different advance timing strokes (two versions, if i rember right) in serveral stock pumps, but do not have an
idea how the differents are related to car type or year of manufacture.
The coloured points are just the measurement which than getting combined with a line.
As i have read, the ignition lag is nearly independ from circumstances, but will decreae a bit as higher the temperatures are. In my knowledge this is also
the reason, why idi could rev higher than di, as the temperature in the prechamber is higher than in the hole cylinder of the DI engines.
And last but not least, i am sure that lowered compression will be contraproductiv for all, as long you does not bring the cylinder pressure (before injection)
to the same value (as with higher compression) due to higher boost pressure.
@carrizog60
The cover plate looks like the one i have used, regarding the spring please look in the pump build thread, i have used a special shim screw arrangemend, which alows adjustable
stroke
Best Regards
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i have used a special shim screw arrangemend, which alows adjustable stroke
cant see how or what you are talking...can you explain better or post a pic?
as for the pumps that in stock allow more timing advance:
wont that also produce more hp?
why they used 2 types of pumps?not hp related i bet...emissions?
also if higher temps benefits the burn at high rpm why diesel coolers are used?
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i have used a special shim screw arrangemend, which alows adjustable stroke
cant see how or what you are talking...can you explain better or post a pic?
as for the pumps that in stock allow more timing advance:
wont that also produce more hp?
why they used 2 types of pumps?not hp related i bet...emissions?
also if higher temps benefits the burn at high rpm why diesel coolers are used?
If you go to the German link, there is a pic. Also it's in English [mostly]
He is using a bolt and nut as an adjustable spacer.
Surely adjustment of this only limits advance range, and not the rate of advance. Also the delay before dynamic advance begins.Not sure of the use of that final point, but I'll think of one ;D
Best state would be to have all spring and no shim, with spring strength selected through iterative trials 8)
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Hi,
sorry for the confusion.
If i will find a bit time between christmas and new year, i will make a revised version of the pump build thread here in english.
The screw is the limiting stop for the piston, the screwhead + shims makes the pre-stressing. So in fact it is not an "adjustable"
limiting stop, but i can change the value just by change the screw.
Here are some more details from the VP37 stuff, which i used:
The VP37 spring has a free length of 50,7 mm and a solid length of 25,7 mm.
The stock pr-stressing is 6,1 mm, by using 2,2 mm shims.
If i would have put that together with the VP37 cover plate in my special VE pump, with the changed static position of the piston,
and use my stock 3,2 mm shims instead of the VP37 2,2 mm, i would came out with a maximum stroke of 18,4 mm
due to the solid length of the spring. The pr-stress would be 6,6 mm in that arrangement.
Due to the fact, that the piston can dip 4mm in the VP37 cover plate, the max. stroke due to the piston would be
19 mm. But both values are only theoretical, becuase even the enlarged channel will not allow that much stroke, so
without a special limiting pin, the stroke were limited due to the channel in the casing, what would be not good.
What i have done, and can be seen on the pictures is, that i have took a coach bolt and grinded the head as long,
as it will fit in the VP37 cover plate. The thread will be inside the spring and the head worked like a shim, due to the
the spring also fixed the position of the bolt. To prevent swarf, i put a small shim between the cover plate (alu) and
the coach bolt. So actualy the max. stroke is limited due to bolt.
With all that done we get following values:
max. stroke due to piston / cover plate: 19,0 mm
max. stroke due to solid length of the spring: 17,0 mm
max. stroke due to piston / coach bolt: 12,7 mm (is less than what would be possible due to the enlarged channel)
By following the math from my previous post, the stroke of 12,7 mm is equal to 14,7° rotating angle IP or 29,4° rotanting angle
crank shaft, which will bring proper dynamik timing up to 5900 rpm.
@ Dieselstink,
to be honest, i did not have checked if the roller cage can hit the governor. But thanks for the chain of thought, i will check next time.
Best Regards
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and what about spring tension?
its the same?that would also affect timing advance ratio...
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other thing...
what stops the piston on its initial position?the cold start lever?by how much you can shave the piston on that side before he hits the pump case?
like this thread ;D
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well, its a great thread, but its gotten soo far away from the initial post that i cant make heads or tails of this thread now.. the last 2 pages have had about nothing to do with the rev limit, or governor, or anything..
weve gotten side tracked to timing advance woes.. i got lost many pages ago..
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well, its a great thread, but its gotten soo far away from the initial post that i cant make heads or tails of this thread now.. the last 2 pages have had about nothing to do with the rev limit, or governor, or anything..
weve gotten side tracked to timing advance woes.. i got lost many pages ago..
Come on give people a break; the sending of tendrils of thought around the workings of the dynamic advance helps those who arent as naturally gifted as you. :'(
Maybe you'd prefer p-mails to open discussion...
Perhaps you have the answer as to why the yellow dot pump has a faster rate of internal pressure rise relative to rpm increase, yet needs to be advanced more statically, and rumour has it that, the timing spring is relatively weak, creating even earlier advancement. Sounds like it would be more suited to a motorcycle :-\
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This might be interesting, if the bigger number means, the more rpm's are attainable when modified :-\
I understand the red highlights to be the pump's maximum rated power output rpm. [half crank speeds]
Most pumps from the mk2 era are 4500rpm, but note AAZ pump is rated higher, and the 107 group mostly 5000rpm.
Most Nissan pumps are 5000 rpm for their engines, interestingly, though they appear to have used the 1.6TD at one stage, or at least shared this pump...
0 460 494 039 068130108M VE4/9F2100R48 VW CS/KY
0 460 494 182 068130180F VE4/9F2250R223 NISSAN/VW CY/JR
0 460 494 267 068130110Q VE4/9F2250R328-5 VW SB
0 460 494 323 028130109G VE4/9F2300R420-14 VW AAZ
0 460 494 084 VE4/9F2400R66-13 AUDI/VW JK/CR,JK
0 460 494 002 68130107 VE4/9F2500R16 VW
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IMO shaving the piston is not the best approach. Custom milled end caps or end cap spacers would be the way to go. You can't shave the cold start end of the piston because it has the rod in it for the cold start. Getting enough movement for the roller cage to hit the governor on both sides is easy. The roller cage hitting the governor is the limiting factor
are you sure?
the piston isnt the same at both sides?
so,how much can we shave the piston before it hits the governor cage(or pump wall or what limits movement)?
i dont need to shave or add spacers to the cover as the vp37 cover has a deeper hole so the piston wont be limited by the cover.
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well, its a great thread, but its gotten soo far away from the initial post that i cant make heads or tails of this thread now.. the last 2 pages have had about nothing to do with the rev limit, or governor, or anything..
weve gotten side tracked to timing advance woes.. i got lost many pages ago..
Come on give people a break; the sending of tendrils of thought around the workings of the dynamic advance helps those who arent as naturally gifted as you. :'(
Maybe you'd prefer p-mails to open discussion...
Perhaps you have the answer as to why the yellow dot pump has a faster rate of internal pressure rise relative to rpm increase, yet needs to be advanced more statically, and rumour has it that, the timing spring is relatively weak, creating even earlier advancement. Sounds liUK it would be more suited to a motorcycle :-\
I've been thinking about the 1.15mm 'Yellow Dot Paradox'.
"Thinking" because I don't have one, and suspect that they never came to uk ;D
If to supplement a greater advance, the starting position orf the cage was more retarded; that would give the greater range.
0.15mm on the piston cam @ the operating region of a 'standard' pump equates to some 5-7 degrees crank, or 2.5 to 3 degrees on the pump...
Does this make sense?
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for low end torque i preffer tdi engines as they can handle loads of torque at low rpm... :P
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today went to basement and removed the timing end cap.
so i am using 1.6td spring(brownish)as i believe that i read somewhere that it would have less strenght and provide a faster advance rate.
this spring has a lenght of 36,78mm.
the end cap i am using(from vp pump)provides 8,45mm more travel than the VE does.
assuming that without the end cap the pump wall would be the second limiting factor,for how much can we increase the stroke before he hits the wall?
my concerns now is how much do i have to schim to make sure that the end continues to be the limiting factor.
any difference if its the piston or the spring that hits the cap?
and this increase in stroke would provide advance until what rpm?
unfortunally i didnt get to take measurements when the pump was without the guts and now i dont feel joy to have to take all apart again to check this... >:(
and i suck on this maths lol
so any help would be great ;)
edit: compressed spring lenght is 17mm.
i have taken some pics on the clearence from governor when piston is hitting the wall as other interesting mesurements.
soon as i can i will post the pics
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i did that with a spare pump i had laying around.
thought the spring would also compress,if it dosent then i have to get a device like alles did to limit piston movement and only schim the spring enough so it can stay tight...
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not with this VP cap,its a deeper hole than stock VE
pics for thoughts
piston just before hitting the pump wall inside:
(http://i.imgur.com/vrV6G.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/01Rr8.jpg)
and the clearance to governor:
(http://i.imgur.com/knUw4.jpg)
now with spring thats going to be used(1.6 gtd):
(http://i.imgur.com/if2es.jpg)
and with cap without schims:
(http://i.imgur.com/c9mv4.jpg)
so the difference from the cap hole and the piston protusion will tell me the size of the limiting screw to be used right?
unfortunally i dont see a way to check the gains in travel and advance over stock,maybe alles or others with more skills will schime in ;D
if anyone needs more measurements just say ;)
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regarding the cold start lever side of the piston the spot were the lever touches is deeper than the piston top(were it hits the cover) so maybe a little trimming could be possible.
dont know what would it do with static timing settings... ???
edit:see posts below,trimming is not an option as said before by dieselstink.
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Hi,
first of all, thanks for your pic with the flywheel governor, this looks really tight, so i think i have to reopen
my pump to check if i have i can have a collision there.
As long as you stay with the stock camplate, the adjustment value for static timing stays constant, so
you can shorten the advanced timing piston at the cold lever side and still use the stock adjustment value
for the static timing.
The adjustment value in [mm] (or inch) is an equivalent to a specified rotating angle of the pump before
TDC. At least, the real parameter (which is adjusted) is the time in sec. between start of fueling and
TDC, which must correlate with the speed of sound (of the fuel) and the length of the injections pipes.
As the length of the injections pipes and the speed of sound stays constant, also the time between
start of fueling and TDC has to stay constant and the rotating angle has to stay constant. If you change
the camplate to another type with a different helix angle, you have to find the plunger stroke in [mm], whichs
results at the equivalent rotating angle of the stock camplate with the stock adjustment value.
I have take a look in my old measurements and find that my VP cover cap "only" allows 4 mm more stroke,
as i understood your post, you cap would give 8 mm more stroke (if the cap would be the only restrain)?
Best Regards
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you are right,the maximum allowed by the cover is +-4mm as the piston wont enter the cap hole at the bottom,just the spring.
the stock cap dont have this recess so we have more 4mm of travel than stock.
since piston hits the wall before reached those 4mm protusion i need a limiting bolt that can give me that 1mm(or a bit more just to be safe).
2.5mm over stock would be a good increase right?
(http://i.imgur.com/hkkDX.jpg)
next is a pic of the piston before hittinh the pump wall,but on the cold start lever side.
as we can see the only way to allow the movement would be to get a spacer as the lever hits the piston inside before the edges hit the cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/KJuAT.jpg)
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new measurements:
piston hole(for spring) is 20,26mm
VP cover hole is 16,08mm
if the spring lenght fully compressed is 17mm than (assuming that the pump can generate force to compress the spring) the spring is for sure not the limiting factor as fully compressed she can be inside the piston without protusion.
maybe with VP spring that wouldnt be the case but the advance would work slower due to higher tensile strenght from the spring.
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alles,did you tried the 1.6 spring?
my plans were using one but i am concerned about it being loose when advance is low...
i could add a fair amount of schims but that would also affect the tension so using that or the vp spring maybe be ending the same thing...
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it looks to me that the piston edges dont touch the cap of cold start side.
the lever pushes the piston not by a straight motion but using a ramp like rod.pulling the lever it rotates and pushes the piston by forcing a pin to go up on that ramp.
i am hopping that alles can give me a number of degrees and rpm that can be achieved just by adding the cap and vp spring.(more 3mm from stock)
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Hi,
@Dieselstink
You are right (for sure), the pump must re-timed after changing the static position. I have tought about writing that, but thought it would be clear.
As mentioned i have changed the static position 3 mm (to the cold lever side) and can assure that still the same timming belt position can be used.
As been written here serveral times, there are many versions of timing pistons. The one in my pump and also in another pump, which i have build for
a friend (Jetta II with a 1.6 TD) and the pistons in my BMW pumps all stops at the end cap on the cold lever side. By shorten the piston approximate
1 mm could be gained, i my pump built i have grinded the lever and also eliminate the thrust bearing, which brings another 2 mm.
(http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww24/euro-styler/ESP%20Umbau/p1010007-1.jpg)
@carrizog60
Thanks for your pics, i like pics and measurements in threads like this.
Just as rough numbers, in my pump i would have need 11,4 mm shims with the 1.6 spring, which would allow 12 mm stroke due to the spring. But
i would not wand to have the spring nearly to solid length, so i would say, stroke should be limited to max of 10,5 mm due to the spring.
Just for mention it, the VP37 (i have used) comes with 11,4 mm stroke as stock.
In my mind 3mm more would help a lot, and would be good enough. I assume that your pump has have stock ~ 9 mm and not ~7 mm as the older
ones.
Best Regards
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...
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....
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...
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my pump has a 9mm head but now its 11mm.
since its a 1.9 with a tdi gearbox and bolted to a passat 35i i dont plan to rev it past 5000,maybe once or twice but i like to know that if i rev it beyonde that its still working hard.
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Hi,
what i meaned was the stock stroke of the advanced timing piston, not the diameter of the high pressure plunger.
I have take a look in my old measurements and find out, that a pump for a friend (a very old one with the smaller
LDA pin) has hat only ~7 mm stroke instead of ~9 mm.
Best Regards
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Hi again,
so can we agree on that point, a 2 mm or 3 mm spacer (no need to work on the casing slot) would be the finest and best solution.
Than take a VP cover cap plus the VP spring and my "limit pin" and you would have enough stroke for all idi engines and could
make the mod without open the pump. ;)
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
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its the safest way at least.
i am going just with the vp cover and spring,sure it can provide advance till 5500 or near right?
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Hi,
yes that would be the ultimate tuning set for advanced timing.
A spacer for the cold start lever side (2 mm) and a new cap for the spring side, which gives another 2 mm stroke and also compensates the
changed static position for the spring, so that you came out with the same pre-stress as before.
I have an excel spreadsheet with my measurements and will put that figures together and make a screen shot for here, to find out if this
would work plug and play and what would are the final numbers. If i find time pherhaps i can make a 3D Modell and ask a machine shop what
would be the manufacturing costs. The bigest challenge would be the sealing of the spacer, because it is not thick enough to just take a second
o-ring.
Best Regards
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Hi,
we can go that route, because the 1.6 spring is not captable to take stoke + 4mm, maximum would be + 3 mm.
So at least, just a 2 mm spacer for the cold lever side and an extra 2mm shimm would be the best solution for
95% of idi engines. With this extra 2 mm stroke you will end up with advanced redline of ~5200 rpm.
By following the idea, the VP spring has to be part of a tuning set. Pherhaps i will ask my Bosch dealer what would
be the price for spring, original shims and VP cover cap.
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
P.S.
Hardcore people could eliminate the thrust bearing instead of the the spacer, there a still two plain metall shims
as "thrust bearing", so same solution as on the flywheel governor. I can still pull the cold lever before starting, but
it goes a bit harder than before. As alternativ i can pull it during starting, than it make no different at all, as the internal
pressure is allready taking most of the spring load.
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This thread is pretty intriguing. Has anyone done any testing to see if and how much extra advance correlates with extra hp? It shouldn't be too difficult with a G-Tech or Norwegian dyno. One could try advancing a stock pumps static timing and babying it through the low RPMs and noting changes. One could even plot an "ideal" advance curve that way with a Tach and Tune.
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Hi,
i could not check extra hp, because i have always make more than one change at once.
Anyhow, i did increase my internal pump pressure on my AAZ Golf and can cofirm that the turbo spooling is affected by the timing. Early timing mean bad spooling and late timing mean valuable better timing. I could also see, that my internal pressure is not linear at all, i assume that this is because of my shortened timing piston. It seems that the leackage in idle position is much higher than it should, than after the piston moving a few mm, the leakage decrease valuable whichs bring a spontaneous pressure increase (~2 bar). So in fact it is very difficult to find the right pressure adjustmend.
For the moment i would not long recommend to shorten the timing pistion on the spring side.
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
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Hi Alleslowbuged,
Do you that will hapen on IDI also?
I think about puting gasket 1 mm on cover to spring side, after your post and not to shorten the timing pistion.