VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vdubspeed on November 06, 2011, 05:53:42 am
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Around here I buy VW's to fix and resale. I love doing it because I get to breathe life back into an old VW. I've done some mk1's and mk2's but mainly it is the newer stuff like mk4's and B5's that I do(easier to find)
Anyway, I just got done with my VR Golf a few months back (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5336517-A-Golf-VR-build...because-I-want-to (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5336517-A-Golf-VR-build...because-I-want-to).) and was actually going to do my first non-VW build(is300 donor into an AE86) but this cherry came up for sale on craigslist. After an hour drive to a farm I came upon a 1989 Jetta diesel that had been driven into the ground. The timing belt had let go and done some massive destruction. The shifter bushings did not exist, a dog lived in the back seat, and worse, years of driving on a dirt road allowed dirt to go EVERYWHERE.
Here she is after her first wash pressure wash of of many:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0097.jpg)
And the interior:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0098.jpg)
Below is the reason she was down:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0102-1.jpg)
So the first task was ripping the head off. I sent a decent head to the machine shop for a rework and why it was gone started on the body. I honestly spent 40-50hrs alone in cleaning and making her shine again. That includes pulling everything in the interior and the carpet and cleaning everything by hand.
Anyway, when the head came back, I slapped the motor together and she fired up third crank and is running beautifully. FOR THE RECORD: I had the head resurfaced(gasp). The cups were popped out before hand and surfaced seperately. I peened them in place afterwards. My neighbor is an older gentlemen and has wanted me to find him a nice old diesel for a while. When I presented him the car and the price($2500), he jumped immediately.
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0104.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0107.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0108.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/vdubspeed16vT/DSC_0109-1.jpg)
It now lives in his garage across the street. He's not a dubber but wanted something with good mileage. A few days ago he went on a 160mile highway/interstate trip and managed 48mpg by keeping it at the 60-70mph range and easing away from lights.
Needless to say...he loves it.
Question though: It's running great and doesn't leak at all but the Bentley says I have to do another 1/4 turn after 1000 miles. Is this absolutely necessary? I don't want to mess up a motor that doesn't leak and runs perfect. By the way it's a 1989 hydro block with a 1985 turbo mech head. I blocked the 3rd oil return in the block and the coolant passage in the head to make it work. Thanks
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That thing cleaned up nice. Awesome carnage pic.
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some people don't do the extra quarter turn, and report no issues, with it being na i doubt it will ever be a problem, but i always follow the bentley and in the past i have always done the extra turn
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Very nice work! 8)
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Very nice work! Cool
Indeed! Good call on switching out those alloys.
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Great work there. Now we all know where to bring our cars to get the same treatment. What a deal.
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Question though: It's running great and doesn't leak at all but the Bentley says I have to do another 1/4 turn after 1000 miles. Is this absolutely necessary? I don't want to mess up a motor that doesn't leak and runs perfect. By the way it's a 1989 hydro block with a 1985 turbo mech head. I blocked the 3rd oil return in the block and the coolant passage in the head to make it work. Thanks
Yeah it is important. VW would not go to all of the trouble if it were not. You spent all of that money on the TTY bolts, why throw their advantage away? These things have chronic HG problems in all forms (4,5,6 cylinders) and the TTY bolts were an effort to solve it. The process works pretty well IF you do things just like they say. The cam cover gasket is $3, so why are you worrying if it will leak oil afterward?
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so when VW built all these engines...did they have TTY bolts back then and if so...I wonder if people actually brought them back.
As for the $3 gaskets. I don't use cork gaskets. They are ***. I convert all my 8V's to mk3 rubber gaskets.
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I don't think I have ever retorqued the headbolts.
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so when VW built all these engines...did they have TTY bolts back then and if so...I wonder if people actually brought them back.
As for the $3 gaskets. I don't use cork gaskets. They are ***. I convert all my 8V's to mk3 rubber gaskets.
With regard to the retorque, most new cars (especially back then) had some dealer service required around that point.
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I don't think I have ever retorqued the headbolts.
Putting the last 1/4 turn on the stretch bolts is not "retorqueing", it is part of the original sequence. Any one who does not do it just like the book says is asking for trouble. Its free and makes the HG last a lot longer. When the final sequence is done the head bolts are basiclly springs which are much more tolerant if the expansion/thermal cycling that chews up head gaskets on motors with aluminum heads.
With 6 point, (non-TTY) head bolts you should retorque them EVERY time you have the cam cover off. They last vastly longer that way. In the old days this was done as a matter of course when the valves were adjusted on them "Ferrin" cars.
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Some good points noted above that most may have forgotten in the last few decades. First was the car has a maintenance schedule. Most of our cars are capable of exceeding those mileages listed in the owners manuals. Most of us have no idea if they were ever followed. As cars have gotten designed to increase the interval between what used to be regular maintenance the complexity has gone up. Not so for our cars but our memory for doing the prescribed basics seems to have faded.
And yes dealers used to do all this stuff but even back when charged an arm and a leg for it. With Ferrin cars maybe two legs, just for spite that you didn't buy a Chevy or a Ford.
You have to put yourself in the mindset of the times. Shade tree mechanics was entitled that because that is where you went on that Sat. or Sun. afternoon to do the work for the spring or fall prep work. My dad told me the main reason he was retiring 25 years ago is because they were designing the engines so only dealers could work on them. He hated that idea. I think most of us do as well. The DYIer is slowly dying. Long live the MK1 and 2s.
Just think back in time and it all makes sense.
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Not to be a fly in the ointment, but I purposefully did not do the last re-torque on my '91 Jetta - so far so good in 2 years/ 20k miles. Also, my '82 Rabbit pickup (11mm) is running just fine thank you after 200K miles on it's last rebuild. It has been so long since I rebuilt that engine (1997) that I don't remember what I did, but I haven't retorqued the head in many miles (if at all). I personally would rather have a head gasket fail (and replace it) than run the risk of ruining a block.
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You should follow the manufacturer of the headgasket's recommendations.(i have not seen that 1k retorque on an elring,goetze or reinze package i have used in a VERY long time) However to add to that comment: Stretch bolts, as modern vw headbolts are, should NOT be retorqued after 1000k miles!!!!!!! A stretch bolt when properly torqued has entered a plastic stage and stretched, in theory, achieving maximum clamping force at that time. If additional torque is supplied after 1k you will actually loose clamping force, as the bolt will begin to weaken. The 1k retorque we have all forgotten about from 20 years ago was pre-stretch bolt back when they were reusable, we forgot unpurpose!
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I think you should go back and reread the material that came with the last head gasket you used. I have done a 1.6D, a 2.0D and a 2.4D in the last few months, all Elring, Goetze, and Reinze gaskets and ALL said to do the last 1/4 turn at 1000 km (600 miles) on TTY motors. Its part of the sequence to get them to the right spot in their plastic range. I think the paperwork is still sitting on the front seat of the Volvo, if you want me to scan and post it.
BTW rs889, there is ZERO chance to damaging the block by retorquing a non TTY motor and it should be done regularly. Just because you have not been subject to a failure yet does not mean missing part of the factory maintenance is a good idea. All of these motors are notorious for head gasket failure; why would you purposefully ignore steps to increase its life?
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The 1k retorque we have all forgotten about from 20 years ago was pre-stretch bolt back when they were reusable, we forgot unpurpose!
This is not correct.
Chris
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BTW rs889, there is ZERO chance to damaging the block by retorquing a non TTY motor and it should be done regularly. Just because you have not been subject to a failure yet does not mean missing part of the factory maintenance is a good idea. All of these motors are notorious for head gasket failure; why would you purposefully ignore steps to increase its life?
The 11mm blocks are also notorious for block failure. I see no reason at this point in its life to go in and disturb a head which has obviously sealed and run the risk of damage to the threads which may have been compromised over the years. I am not an engineer and I can't deny the theoretical accuracy of what is printed in the literature, but I also think much of it does not take into consideration the compromised condition of the threads in a 30 year old underengineered block. I would rather not take that chance.
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11mm blocks crack when some goofball installs the head bolts with oil/antifreeze in the bottom of the blind bolt holes. When the bolt is tightened the hydraulic pressure splits the bolt hole. The block fails on assembly and will not hold a head gasket very long. Retorqing the HG can't damage the block; you are unlikely to get 1/8 turn on the bolts.
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I appreciate your confidence in my 11mm block, however neither you nor I at this moment know with certainty what's at the bottom of those holes or what the threads look like. When I re-installed the head bolts back in the Clinton Administration , they were clean and pretty, but who's to say what they look like now? Most times when I pull an engine apart I think - ouch- how did that possibly hold up! I will take my chances with the status quo... ;)
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If they were clean and dry when you assembled it, they are clean and dry now. The gunk gets in on disassembly, it does not magically appear when the motor is in service.
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I respectfully disagree. I have pulled a number of stock engines apart and it wasn't I who put that mung in the holes. If it wasn't me it must have been magic ( or Ford or GM or VW)...or the combustion process over the years
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I respectfully disagree. I have pulled a number of stock engines apart and it wasn't I who put that mung in the holes. If it wasn't me it must have been magic ( or Ford or GM or VW)...or the combustion process over the years
X2
I just redid my rabbits HG last week and the bolts looks terrible, oily goo in the threads and down the holes and I KNOW it wasn't like that when I put the head on in '06.
I filled the bolt holes with brakecleen or gas (whatever was sitting there) and blew it out with an air nozzle that I'd stuck a small hose on so I could put it to the bottom and blow everything out. I did that quite a few times and also modified a head bolt to act like a tap (cut grooves down the sides) and ran that through until it was clean, then I did the gas/blow it out thing again.
Assuming no oil will get in the threads is like assuming the bolt head/washer and head where the washer touches are a perfect seal.
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x3 on 11mm blocks. They were a poor design and vw quickly realized that and changed them accordingly. The tech bulletins and issues with the 11mm are very well documented. Vw doesn't change designs to accommodate poor mechanic work.
On the gasket question and some of the difference of opinion i had with some posts above, IF the OP used original fiber style gasket, i may be mistaken on not doing 1k retorque. After some research it appears a clear definition that Metal headgaskets as i have been using lately are not retorque gaskets, i checked my reinz papers that i could find, however the one nos fiber gasket i had did show a 1k retorque. If you do retorque be sure not to loosen the "stretch" bolts= only one forward movement.
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But that's drifting into the context of non-stock modifications. Since the initial post didn't mention any modifications, we should assume that we're talking about a stock fiber head gasket.
I'm not trying to bust yer balls specifically BigVWMan, but I see soooo much drifting conversation and misinformation here... far worse than on any other enthusiast site I frequent, that it gets a little frustrating. If nothing else, it serves to confuse the wet-behind-the-ears noob that chooses to search and mine the knowledge base rather than asking outright.
Chris
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I do agree threads here stray a little but personally i like that about this site. If you want a stern by the status quo there are site o plenty like tdiclub where new ideas, off the wall thoughts, and modifications are taboo.Not trying to single out or be a douche either but the original poster is far from a wet behind the ears newbie mentioning he flips vw's regularly and usually does mk4 and newer(mostly all metal headgasket BTW) and mentions its an 85 mech head on a 89 hydro block with a 3rd oil passage blocked. The truely proper way for any of us to answer his question would have been to ask for more details before spouting off opinion myself included! HOWEVER the first sentenance of my first response was IMO the only correct answer and is true in either case-FOLLOW THE HEAD GASKET MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS- it works for newbs to0 ;D just my 2c and not trying to offend anyone!
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Yea, the OP wasn't my concern, this person certainly had no issue and did a fine job... but there seems to be a general rebellion around here where folks are looking for any reason to NOT follow the manufacturers directions regarding head gaskets. And people do search old threads so when they see conflicting data or even ideas that support their desire to invent their own procedure, it breeds confusion and disaster.
At some point, I just want to smack people around and say 'do it right or buy a civic' :D
Being a few beers deep last night didn't do much for my patience either...
We are on the same page for sure... Follow the damn manufacturer's procedure! Lol
Chris
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I understand completely! Hopefully we can save them before they go civic and get them straight!
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Let em go get a civic, Then we can work them through dropping in a 1.6 NA into it and see how good of mileage they get.
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LOL... I'd love to have the build quality of my old 81 Corolla powered by the ALH stashed away in the corner of the garage. Unfortunately I'd be underwater with the market value before even getting the 20R(?) unbolted.
Chris
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Sometimes it isn't the economic factor that drives us to do insane things now is it. Cost be damned, yank that sucker and drop in something decent
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LOL 3 posts ago weren't you saying something about staying on topic Luckypabst?
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Yea. I was waiting for that.
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Holy snowball :o
I might be throwin a stick in the spokes here. My neighbor has decided the Jetta is not for him. He wants 2012 quality for $2500. (has a 2011 f150 and 2008 Navigator). Anyway, I bought it back and have relisted for 3K locally.
Unfortunately...it will leave my hands before it gets to 1K...
Kinda makes me wonder what all the mechanics who have done fiber gasket installs before metal came around and the customers didn't come back.
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Just do what I usually do. I tell them to bring it back with a six pack and a cam cover gasket when it hits 600 miles. I also tell them if they do not and it fails, its all on them and I won't feel the least bit sorry for them. Of course I tell them this after I have been paid, but most will go ahead and bring it back and seem to appreciate the "after service". I also give them the "old cars are like old people" lecture and wish them luck.