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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: NOTORIOUS VR on February 03, 2006, 10:44:56 am
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Alight.. my buddy wants to spray his car... with nitrous...
I know that it can be done with propane too... so what are the dis/advantages of going with nitrous? and the same for propane...
I don't know if any of you have seen where in an episode of 5th gear they took an old rabbit diesel (automatic at that) raced a NSX and it got demolished in a race (obvoiusly)... but then they equipped the rabbit with some nitrous... and it actually beat the NSX... :lol:
So.. now my buddy wants to try it out on his TD....
Had anyone played around with this? How much boost were u guys running? how much fuel? do u need more fuel if u run nitrous (like on a gasser?)....
Discuss! 8)
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Where do they show 5th gear?
Nitrous oxide is a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen with the nitrogen acting as a buffer to slow the release of the oxygen within the combustion chamber. What you're after is the oxygen. Just injecting nitrous on a gas engine will cause it to go lean, then knock...possibly bad enough to break a piston or worse. I've seen a lot of different types of nitrous related damage. In smaller amounts when properly jetted it can be fairly safe, but the biggest drawback is it's on/off nature. When the engine goes from making 100hp to 200hp in a fraction of a second it is very hard on internal engine components, the clutch, transmission, cv's, etc. A progressive nitrous controller can be used to help minimize this but by the time you've spent that much money on your nitrous system you could have turbocharged an otherwise naturally aspirated engine and you still have to fill the nitrous bottle at ~$5 a pound.
On a diesel things are a bit different. Injecting nitrous by itself isn't really going to get you anything. It would be just like turning up the boost, but not the fuel. The power comes from the fuel. You only need as much oxygen as it takes for the fuel to properly combust and keep egt's in check. I like the idea that was discussed recently with using the pressure from the nitrous system to trigger the LDA. You'd have to be careful on that one though - nitrous bottles work at a pretty high pressure.
To me, nitrous should be a last ditch effort to find more power. A turbo (or two) on your TD is going to be there and ready to go all the time without a bottle to refill or a valve to crack open when that Integra driver needs a lesson.
I'll leave someone to talk about propane who has had some experience with it.
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Got a link to that Top Gear episode? Or do you know what episode # it is? Do you recall if they stated what size shot nitrous they used and how they adjusted the fueling? I bet they cranked up fueling to the point where it would be impractical for street driving but it's only needed in a few runs against the NSX, nothing more..
Definitely need more fuel to make nitrous effective. I'll probably want to see a thick stream of smoke behind me until I hit the juice to turn every last bit of unburnt fuel into power. Some tricks will need to be done to make it a daily driver TD with relatively low smoke but gets lots of fuel on demand with nitrous. I have a few ideas.. some absurd but some thought-provoking:
1) Custom boost pin with steepest possible taper. The turbo will take advantage only part of the pin's taper (e.g. 20 PSI). 30 PSI of nitrous gas via a pressure regulator going into the LDA will push down the boost pin 100% for the additional fueling. This will likely require a stiffer spring for the boost pin.
2) Mechanically actuated max. fueling screw. Stops throttle lever at e.g. 75% during normal driving. When nitrous is ready, max fuel screw is retracted so the throttle lever can swing 100%.
3) edit: Scratched this one...
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I'm thinking the wet shot would be a disaster. The engine would just preignite the fuel.
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i've read a little on it before but that was a long time ago....what are the benefits and drawbacks of using propane? anyone here have any first-hand experience? more interested in that than nitrous.
there are companies like this one offering kits for the american cars, could be adapted...a better one could be built...:
The Powershot is an infinitely variable-stage vapor injection system. It is controlled, activated and proportionate to the boost pressure of the engine. The Powershot comes on slow and steady and as the boost increases, so does the flow of propane. More boost=more propane=more power! It is fully adjustable and can be customized for your specific application in minutes for towing, performance or mileage gains.
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I also have this slight concern when driving around with a tank full of propane. If you get hit hard enough that could result in a rather large explosion.
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Fact: The suicide car bombers in Iraq are VW diesel owners with propane tanks in their trunks. :) Has anyone seen pictures w/ a big crater in the middle of the road? :lol:
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Awsome... so let's keep this going...
The episode is 5th Gear 2004 5x3.... It used to be available from the torrent sites to DL... and http://finalgear.com used to have it available as well, but no more...
I believe I still have it somehwere... or at laest my buddy does... so I'll see if I can host it somewhere for u guys when I find it...
As for the nitrous injection part... I know how it works... I"ve been and worked on enough of it with gassers... I was just wondering about the diesel application...
EIther way, I guess that w/o the extra fuel at the time of the ijection it's not even worth the effort....
But I'd like to se what comes of this thread, even if me move more towards propane injection (dangerous or not :P )
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anyone know of any camping vehicles that are equipped with propane, and diesel powered? :lol:
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Propane works well on a diesel if properly set up.Power is increased,as well as mileage,with a minimal EGT increase.Propane tanks onboard shouldn't really be a worry.There are lots of propane vehicles driving around,and they aren't blowing up all the time.
It must be injected with boost,and at higher RPM's,or pre-ingnition occurs,which can be damaging.Cylinder pressures and temperatures also tend to get quite high if too much is used,or at too low an RPM.Headgaskets failure is common when this happens.A hobbs switch is used to open the propane valve at a preset boost level.
The other problem with propane is getting the right tank.Most cheap BBQ tanks are setup to draw vapour,which is not what you want.You need a liquid draw tank,and then the vapourizing is done up at the engine.Flow is much easier to regulate this way.
Nitrous is fairly safe as well,as long as it's injected at the correct time.Too early,with too much fuel sends cylinder pressures skyrocketing.A lot of guys use it to help spool the turbo(s) at low RPM,but you have to be very careful doing it.At higher RPM's it is great to supplement increased fueling with a smaller turbo.You do need extra fuel or the nitrous alone does nothing.
I have run propane on my Cummins Turbo diesel,but have removed it in favour of other mods.I did have problem running a vapour system,and didn't wany to buy a dedicated liquid draw tank setup.
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nitrous is great with a diesel. With a mild jet, you can fire it right off idle, resulting in immediate turbo spoolup, and a pair of tires that won't weigh as much as they did a few minutes earlier. A larger jet used only at higher rpm helps out on the big end. I never did any more than turn the fuel screw in a touch so it was quite smokey at full throttle/full boost. N2O on, no smoke, loads of power. Dry system only. Ideally, you'd have two solenoids, and two jets; one small, one big. Small jet fires at low rpm, and big clicks on at higher rpm, and a device to supplement the LDA.
Filling the bottle is a mild annoyance, especially when your local guy (PERFORMANCE CELLAR, GOBBLER OF MALE CHICKENS) rips you off, but it's very worth it. VERY.... worth it. Be gentle and start small. If you hear any weird noises (you'll know when you hear it) go back down a jet size, or up 500 hundred rpm.
As a comparison, my old 1.6L w/good exhaust, Giles pump N2O and 25 psi made mincemeat out of a modded 351 mustang II.
oh, and bite the bullet and buy a remote bottle opener. Nothing kills a buzz quite like being next to a Type R at a red light... but your bottle is closed.
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Here's something I'd like to try.
http://www.duramax.bizhosting.com/My_Truck/water_injection.htm
The GM 6.5 is IDI, so I'd imagine that this mod would work well for our engines as well. I wonder how water mist would work on an NA engine. (I'm still on the holy grail TD quest).
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Don't bother wasting your time with propane fumigation on an IDI VW Diesel. It detonates far too readily in our convoluted combustion chambers. At the low fumigation quantities where engine-destroying detonation doesn't occur with it, it won't add much if any over 5% to the engine's power.
Been there, done that... Here is an old engine compartment shot of the trick LPG fumigation system I made:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pded31498818c7c4e8e315d9bd1f63e3d/fc85de78.jpg)
The truth is I never was able to get the propane to work well to ever recommend it to anyone else who has an IDI diesel. I hear they work great on DI diesels through.
If you must fumigate in an IDI, try compressed natural gas! It's got a much higher octane than propane, so should be good to resist detonation under higher fumigation quantities (which should enable it to add more power :twisted: )
Only problem with CNG is, I haven't found a reasonably sized automotive CNG container anywhere. All the ones I have seen are generally massive.
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Okay two things: Nobody has touched on.
1. Propane is a fuel.
2. Nitrous is an oxidizor.
There for if you are underfueled and add propane you will get more power, however in our extremely high CR idi's not much b4 detonation will occur. If you are over fueled and add nitrous you will get more power, as it will be like adding a bigger turbo (more air). If you do the opposite in either case you get nothing, well if you are overfueld and you add propane you still get the detonaiton. :wink:
Okay I have read some other things that in my experiance with diesels are wrong.
- Even a monster shot of nitrous in a well overfueled diesel does NOT create the same "kick" as in a gasser, ie no huge shock loads to the drivetrain. More of a linear rush, the first time I tried nitrous in a diesel I was like braseing for a big hit and it was rather dissapointing (the hit that is not the rush)
Next point in a diesel with a low enough CR to handle propane nitrous and propane can be used in conjunction for more power in a motor that is not overfueld during normal use.
Next a progressive controler is great for running nitrous on a diesel as you dont even run a jet, you just run open soloniods and let the contorller set the amount, however they are pricy.
Finally the only real way to tune a nitrous setup is at the track. You keep adding bigger jets till you run slower and then you go back to the size you ran the quickest with. Just guessing is not even close to a good way to do it and just because jet "A" worked well for someone means nothing for your car as everything is different. IMHO dyno's dont work well for setting up nitrous either but that is an opinion for another day :roll:
I think this covers it for now.
Oh Jake, I found a bottle for CNG that would work for our apps, but it is like $1000. Didnt seam worth it. Some one was saying that you could convert a nitrous bottle or a scuba tank though...
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Here's something I'd like to try.
http://www.duramax.bizhosting.com/My_Truck/water_injection.htm
The GM 6.5 is IDI, so I'd imagine that this mod would work well for our engines as well. I wonder how water mist would work on an NA engine. (I'm still on the holy grail TD quest).
My experience with water (and water\meth) injection,is it needs to be injected under boost,and injected under pressure.Without a turbo,you have no boost.I'm not sure how it would work.I think you would need higher water injection pressures,with nozzles very close to the intake ports so the water stays vaporized.
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i agree with DVST8R ..my friend use nitrouis on teh drag detroits ..i haven't finished mine in fact if soem one here wants a fiberglas flip nose chevy setup for 6v53 detroit and allison 540 with 9"ford rear..let me know..i will sell ..any way back to nitrous...it works best if you are really overfueled..it clears the smoke ..not only by the extra oxyegn ..but it acts as intercooler ..as the cold nitrous cools the incoming air charge...as DVST8R said tun it at the track go tup in size till it slows down..then go back a jet.. ..as for propane in a performance stand point it is fueling substitute ie if you can't get any more fuel with your setup ..propane could help.. as for the economy..i have see two cummins trucks taht had propane setups taht were very very professional and supposedly tehy got insane mpg numbers and range ..almost double the non propane mpg figures..now that was impressive..they did it for the economy not teh performance as they had a ton of other fuel and performance mods..that di up grade the headgasket to a fire ring set up....www.teamdiesel.com has diesel nitrous setups available..
later
Deo
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Ah, Detroit powered drag truck w/nitrous:
http://www.teamdiesel.com/nitrous_oxide.htm
9.27/142...ARH Arh arh!!! /Tim Allen 8)
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Check this out (safe to view - no gore), a VW explosion at a fueling station:
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/explosion_at_gas_station_in_brazil_Feb_04_2006.html
IIRC someone mentioned that alternative fuels are very popular in Brazil. Note the pink/purple tank in the trunk of the wrecked car. It doesn't seem that tank was the source of the explosion though.
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ethanol is big in brazil, in the past few years many of brazilian-market cars have been released that run both pure ethanol and pure gasoline so you have the choice, called 'flex-fuel'. at least 75% of new cars sold in brazil are now 'flex-fuel'. ethanol-only vehicles have been available in brazil since 1979.
in 2003/2004 brazilian ethanol sold at 45% less per litre than gasoline on average.
ethanol was huge in brazil but in the 90s political BS got in the way of progress ( :roll: ) — ethanol has since caught on again and is working wonders for brazil's economy.
sorry for the commentary... i worked with a guy in the summer who is a recent brazilian immigrant, interesting stories!
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ethanol is big in brazil, in the past few years many of brazilian-market cars have been released that run both pure ethanol and pure gasoline so you have the choice, called 'flex-fuel'. at least 75% of new cars sold in brazil are now 'flex-fuel'. ethanol-only vehicles have been available in brazil since 1979.
in 2003/2004 brazilian ethanol sold at 45% less per litre than gasoline on average.
ethanol was huge in brazil but in the 90s political BS got in the way of progress ( :roll: ) — ethanol has since caught on again and is working wonders for brazil's economy.
sorry for the commentary... i worked with a guy in the summer who is a recent brazilian immigrant, interesting stories!
Yeah, I wish I could get some of the brazillian flex fuel cars up here. Not that I can buy ethanol anyway... That car in the explosion looks like a natural gas tank though. One reason I like diesel -- no fuel air mixtures to explode. I've actually welded near spilled biodiesel (probably not the brightest thing still), and it didn't ignite. I wouldn't even try that near gasoline.
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Here is an old engine compartment shot of the trick LPG fumigation system I made:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pded31498818c7c4e8e315d9bd1f63e3d/fc85de78.jpg)
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What is that steel braided line going from the impco regulator to the boost tube for. On every setup i have built that is the vent for the diaphram. Did you run coolant through the regulator to prevent freezup? If it freezes it will send liquid propane into the motor.
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My LPG fumigation setup was quite sophisticated. On it's final iteration before I removed it from the car, I had it introducing LPG vapors through a venturi that was mounted right before the intake manifold, which was under boost pressure.
The braided hose is a balance connection which was necessary to make the regulator "see" just the venturi signal, and not the boost pressure. The venturi introduced LPG in proportion in a near constant proportion to the airflow entering the motor.
The advantage of having the LPG introduced before the intake manifold was that the reaction time of the propane vapors hitting the combustion chambers from when the solenoid is activated would be quicker when the throttle activated switch turned it on. That's because the gasses needn't travel through the compressor, boost tubing, and intercooler. It also made for a very short hose from regulator, further speeding up the LPG reaction time. There was also a safety issue, which is was I wanted to minimize the quantity of explosive gasses in the intake tract.
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my setup was total opposite,,im runnin a cheap water inj. setup,, i used an ol washer bottle w/ pump,,and i let it rip into the intake before the turbo,, i used an old carb. jet in the end of the line,,now remember its crude,,but that turbo sure atomizes the water!!,mines actuated bya button on the shifter,and i canhonestly say it works,,cause cruisin thru pa on rt 80,,goin up a hill,holding steady speed like 75mph,and around 8 pounds of boost,,if i hit the water,,i have to back out of throttle,it starts toaccelerate,,to get it to hold steady speed at this point,ill usually drop2-3 psi of boost,,,oh i use plain ol blue washer fluid,,,had this setup on for 2 years,,when i removed turboto swap onto my tdi,it looked fine,,nowater erosion or anything,,,,,,,just my 2 cents,,and thats all my power adder cost to build too,,egt is cooler,, imayhook up a setup w/ a psi sender to come on auto,,,but it works!!
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they show setups like this in all the turbobooks ive seen,,,,,,,,,
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heres a link to a water-meth site.
http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html
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fspGTD,
Thanks for the detail answer, I understand what you had going on now.
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Ok, so I've read the 2 page thread about this topic. Very good info.
I've looked around at different NOS controllers and found this one.
http://www.jegs.com/i/NOS/741/15974/10002/-1?parentProductId=760609 (http://www.jegs.com/i/NOS/741/15974/10002/-1?parentProductId=760609).
Could it be used on diesels, and how is it connected to the bottle and what now?
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Some one here has to know what type of parts to use to put on to a VW diesel.
Please don't let me waste my money and time with some kit that the guy on the phone told me would work.
I've looked in the major parts catalogs and the setups they have are way to complicated and some parts are not needed.
Ideally, I want to use a two stage setup or a progressive controller to gain low end boost to get going and the main shot to keep the egt's down and get a more complete burn. The pump that I'm useing is a custom one that Giles made for me with a 10mm head and all the other good stuff he does. So I know theres a lot of fuel for NOS.
Please feel free to ask questions. :)
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Right now I'm looking at the DynoTune products. Some good stuff for great prices.
The Multi-Function Nitrous Controller Progressive, RPM (713) seems to be a good one.
It needs an RPM signal. So is the "W" lead from the Alt. a good signal?
Or would the DynoTune Time Delay Switch (708) be a better one?
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1. I have never set up nitrous on a car before. The following is just my 2c and how I'm interpreting everything there, much just from what I read on that NOS controller. Might give you an idea or two; no warranty on anything I say though! ;D
2. It looks to me like that controller makes it possible to run nitrous without a switch to activate it; runs off of throttle position sensor (TPS) instead. Then you can have a delay until it starts injection nitrous and how quickly it starts dumping it in. Also a min/max rpm, neat little feature there. On a gas engine, you'll still need to dump more fuel in to compensate. Whether it's simply by chipping or if you're running standalone on TPS, you could remap the VE table or many other possible solutions. Blah blah blah.
But that's a gasser
The way I see it, if you simply have the fuel turned up enough that you'll smoke at WOT anyway, that controller will be automagically be opening your nitrous nozzles so giving you enough air to burn that extra fuel. So, properly match your nozzles to the extra fuel you have and your needtogofast:don'tblowmyengine ratio and you should be good to go.
How exactly that controller adds it progressively, I don't know. Possibly by opening some form of pressure regulator to the solenoid or maybe by opening/closing the solenoid kinda like a fuel injector
I could expand more on my thoughts later, but I'm tired and going to bed! :)
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Thanks, and nite nite.
Anyone else have anything to add?
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Some one here has to know what type of parts to use to put on to a VW diesel.
Please don't let me waste my money and time with some kit that the guy on the phone told me would work.
I've looked in the major parts catalogs and the setups they have are way to complicated and some parts are not needed.
Ideally, I want to use a two stage setup or a progressive controller to gain low end boost to get going and the main shot to keep the egt's down and get a more complete burn. The pump that I'm useing is a custom one that Giles made for me with a 10mm head and all the other good stuff he does. So I know theres a lot of fuel for NOS.
Please feel free to ask questions. :)
How about running 2 nitrous solenoids, lines and spray nozzles to the intake. Trigger a small shot on solenoid 1 with a micro switch off the throttle pedal or injection pump lever, then trigger the second stage ( solenoid 2) with a adjustable pressure switch while on boost.
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OK. but does the #1 solenoid keep fireing when the boost swt. on #2 solenoid starts?
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OK. but does the #1 solenoid keep fireing when the boost swt. on #2 solenoid starts?
Yes, as long as you stay on the throttle. When you let off the throttle to shift you will loose power to solenoid 1 for as long as it takes to shift and get back on it.( myself, I don't even get off the throttle in between shifts when i'm spraying nitrous). The second stage, (solenoid 2) will add whatever amount you want, (determined by jet size) to the first stage. It will take some tuning to find that happy medium so you're burning the extra fuel, but not wasting nitrous.
I'm running a single stage with a 028 jet (35 shot) and I still leave a smoke trail until boost comes up.