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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on October 20, 2011, 01:44:26 pm
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I need to get this figured out before it actually gets cold... Or I'll be sooo screwed. It can easily drop to like -40C here being off Georgian Bay.
I just put in new glowplugs, as they are cheap and I figured it could use em anyhow. And set the timing to 0.95-0.96mm. I also have an electric pump inline before my fuel filter so its not as if I have drainback issues and the pump looses prime.. It started real rough like all cylinders weren't firing.. Which leads me to think I installed some bad new plugs... (Yeah my own damn fault) Did the job so quick afterwOrds I'm like shiiii I didn't test em.
It started last night fine colder. Started ok today at one.. And now at 430 you'd sware it sat all night again... Godd dammmn!
Brainstorm! Lol
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i'm fixin to ditch my entire glowplug wiring in favor of some of Ford's finest.. one real big relay, like this:
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9651/glow2.jpg)
(http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/672/glow1e.jpg)
one five dollar battery cable, straight from positive on battery to this thing, and then all glow plugs to this thing.
wire the small terminals to a switch to activate the relay.
i'm beginnin to question my 26 year old glow plug wiring.. cause i too have rough starts, now granted i probably haz zero compression at this point, but my god it's only 49 degrees farhenheit at this point is it really that tough to get fired up?? i even double dip my GP's on the first start of the day
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I have a completely manual setup already. First mod when I got my diesel.
I have it straight off the battery with 4awg to the solenoid, 4awg to my distro block. And then each has its own 20a fuse, and 10awg to each GP.
I have all 4 Bosch Duraterms. Which are capable of maintaining perfect glow for over 5 minutes.. I once had a failure that left my old plugs on for a half hour. That was last year. Till two days ago they were still in my engine ;).
So basically I know it is not the gp's. I am fairly sure it isn't compression either.. As it runs great and doesn't use any oil.. Other than a leak at the front of the HG..
I just can't wrap my head on this one.. sometimes its fine sometimes it isn't?? Could it be my battery? Just not getting a good enough spin??
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yeah spin speed is very important
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It doesn't spin that slow.. But the battery is definitely at least 5 years old, and was a reman at that! I got it and its counterpart out of an F350 I scrapped. The other one spins my Ford 302 like a tiny engine. Lmao
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If you have good compression then cranking speed is not nearly as important. Yesterday my battery was almost dead but it started even though it cranked very slow like "it's not gonna make it past compression" kinda slow.
Yesterday morning it was barely above 20F and cranked slowish after sitting all night and 4 hours later at 30F it was even even slower as mentioned above.........something's up with my alternator though.
Does your cold start knob make it better or worse?
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If you have good compression then cranking speed is not nearly as important. Yesterday my battery was almost dead but it started even though it cranked very slow like "it's not gonna make it past compression" kinda slow.
Yesterday morning it was barely above 20F and cranked slowish after sitting all night and 4 hours later at 30F it was even even slower as mentioned above.........something's up with my alternator though.
Does your cold start knob make it better or worse?
my rabbit starts just like this sometimes, if the battery is very low. you dont think its even gonna finish that compression stroke, then it fires off..
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Does your cold start knob make it better or worse?
While cranking? or after the car has started?
I have not actually given it a try before starting.. Possibly because I used to run my other pump timed to like 1.03mm and the CS would make it crank slower.. This pump being timed to 0.95-0.96mm may actually benefit from starting with the CS pulled out.. I'll have to give that a try tomorrow morning.
After the car has started and is running like total shiz, pulling the CS jumps the idle up to like 1500 and advances timing so it purrs..
Just had an epiphany... What if how I have my pump set up right now it is not fueling properly for idle..
Like If i had the residual fuel screw (throttle rest screw) out to far, and the max fuel screw in to far.. it may not be providing enough idle fueling to fire off? Or maybe I just need to raise my idle? SOO MANY VARIABLES when you mess with every adjustment the pump has.. lol
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While cranking? or after the car has started?
Like If i had the residual fuel screw (throttle rest screw) out to far, and the max fuel screw in to far.. it may not be providing enough idle fueling to fire off? Or maybe I just need to raise my idle? SOO MANY VARIABLES when you mess with every adjustment the pump has.. lol
While cranking, and yeah I know it can make it crank slower but it's worth trying.
Yeah I know about messing up adjustments, when they're so far off you can't get it to run right it's time to reset it like factory (if you can) or just experiment away.
Do you ever press the go pedal while cranking? Maybe glow it a bit longer.
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With the duraterms They get tips hot in 5 seconds, middle hot in 13, and fully glowing by 20 seconds. I'll try the normal 10 second glow with the CS out tomorrow.
The only thing that sucks with my adjustments is I have it perfect right now. The most power i've ever had out of it, with the least smoke! It's seriously like a raped ape right now. 3" cold air intake, and straight through exhaust really help out. I am going to put it against my brothers 1.6td and see how she does lol.
But yeah i will try a few things out tomorrow before work. then let it sit till lunch and try a different approach, then after work see whats up. Bro works at a local shop so he can get stuff at shop cost, I may throw a new truck battery (1100CCA) in for ***s and giggles.
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Try the go pedal and the CS as Rabbitman suggested.. Not to rain down a lot of doom and gloom, a compression check would be the next thing in order... These buggers will actually run pretty good and not use tons of oil with low compression...
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Forgot to say that my last compression check about two years and 30-40K miles ago was 400-420psi. Checked as hot as possible before it cooled down.
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Jezzie needs the CS handle most of the time and she's got plenty of advance as it is. She's got a fair bit of blow-by though so I think new rings are in her future.
Anyhow, for me I have the best results with the CS handle if I crank her till she's sort of catching (not more than a few revolutions) and THEN pull the handle. Usually she fires to life as I pull it. That way she can get cranking with it out, and then once the starter is up to speed I throw in the extra advance. I believe that's actually how it says to do it in the owner's manual though I can't say I've looked in a loooong time.
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Well it idles fine right after start up with CS out, but stumbles if you push it in.. So I think it just needs a little higher idle and a little more advance..
However i am in the car right now.. And just started up.. There was a ton of start up smoke. Which I believe to be incomplete combustion. Each miss of the engine a second later would produce a smoke puff.. Kind of blueish.. Oil??
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That'd be unburned diesel... Was that with or without the CS handle pulled out? I get that if my CS handle is in and I don't give Jezzie enough glow before starting...
I see you put new GPs in, but have you actually verified that they're all working? If you overtighten them on installation they can die pretty much right away. With the engine cold just cycle the plugs and stick your finger on the terminal of each of them - they should feel warm. If not... they ain't working.
Jezzie needs the cold start handle pulled out for the first 20 seconds or so after starting once it's below 10°C out or she runs kinda rough. She cleans up pretty darn quick, but she DOES have afterglow on the GPs since she's a Mk III. The GPs stay on for about 3-5 minutes after starting when it's at all cold out.
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I foolishly did not test the plugs before I put em in.. Like an idiot! It was a little chilly and I had already worked 9hrs.. I just wanted to go inside. Lol.
So this last start was sitting about 3.5hrs since last run, but last run was my 2km to work. So bone cold again.
I gave it a bump of the key to get some diesel on the plugs (I've heard of this being good practice too), then cycled the plugs for like 15s two cranks in I pulled the CS out which it then kindof rolled in to running.. Like it was almost catching without it.. I think I have my pump settings really whacked..
BUT that wouldn't explain the unburned fuel.. Not getting good combustion.. Ill have to bump the timing up some after work today$
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I think you still have a little air in the IP. My glow plugs are manually controlled. I find that I can start the engine instantly without glowing the plugs for 1 hour after a hot shut down only if I have no bubbles in the inlet and return lines of the IP at any time (i.e. while the engine is running or not). If there are bubbles, it does not start instantly and will need glow plugs + a lot of cranking. You need to have clean clear lines to see bubbles. When the engine is off, if you see even a small pocket of air at the highest point of the clear lines, it will inhibit instant starts and require extended cranking. As you know, air can get in anywhere, from the tank pickup up to the filters, including the IP seals and injectors and injector return lines.
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I gave it a bump of the key to get some diesel on the plugs (I've heard of this being good practice too), then cycled the plugs for like 15s two cranks in I pulled the CS out which it then kindof rolled in to running.. Like it was almost catching without it.. I think I have my pump settings really whacked..
That is totally not true, you want a nice hot prechamber (hence the GP's) before any fuel goes in. I've found that if my bunny is too cold and doesn't start, kills the battery and I start jumping it and boosting it and all that it pretty much floods out and won't start even if I do get it to crank fast.
Same with my golf which I've never got running right, if it doesn't start right up I have to give up and wait a while before trying again.
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Pull that CS knob out before you shut the engine off next time. I find it works best to have that extra advance at the first crank of the starter and not wait for a couple cranks.
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i find on old worn ones.. to pull as your car starts to fire is best.. to pull first.. some will not start.. ???
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I find that I can start the engine instantly without glowing the plugs for 1 hour after a hot shut down. You need to have clean clear lines to see bubbles. When the engine is off, if you see even a small pocket of air at the highest point of the clear lines, it will inhibit instant starts and require extended cranking. As you know, air can get in anywhere, from the tank pickup up to the filters, including the IP seals and injectors and injector return lines.
Yup I can easily no plug start it again even after only running for a few minutes within 20 minutes. This summer we saw high temps of 25-27C (77-80F) ambient temperature, I didn't even need to use my glow plugs and it fired off in two to three cranks. I have clear lines and the only air that i see at the high spots is in the main return line.. but i do have the stupid style "pre-heat" filter.. (I may be ditching it for the old school style this week. lol) It is probably letting some air in from the return where it drains back to the tank in the return line and then air from the tank works up in to the filter.. and thus allowing it in to the feed.. But I dont think this is my problem.. it almost seems like an air leak issue.. but i don't see any bubbles. Running or not.
Pull that CS knob out before you shut the engine off next time. I find it works best to have that extra advance at the first crank of the starter and not wait for a couple cranks.
I was thinking I was just going to advance my timing a bit. I have all the tools and have done it a hundred times, no big feat to me.. takes 10 minutes. I was gonna go up 0.001 or 0.002" and see where that puts me for tomorrow morning..
i find on old worn ones.. to pull as your car starts to fire is best.. to pull first.. some will not start.. ???
Don't know the mileage on the pump, but it was resealed within the last 40k.
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Pull that CS knob out before you shut the engine off next time. I find it works best to have that extra advance at the first crank of the starter and not wait for a couple cranks.
That is no different than pulling it just before cranking since it's all mechanical so as long as there's no pressure in the pump when pulled it'll advance it a set amount. After the pump builds pressure as when revved the advance will be past what the CS knob can do.
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When I read it, I got the impression he was letting the starter turn a couple of turns before pulling the knob out. Is that not true? He said a couple of cranks into it I pull the CS knob.
I pull knob then glow the plugs then hit the starter, with foot half way down on the accelerator. Don't you have those instructions right above your head on the sun visor? There is a label there on mine that tells me what to do when hot or cold. Picture time?
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Do you have the cold start instructions for your car from the manual? I don't have high idle on my pump but my book tells you what to do depending on temps. If you don't have air bubbles at your pump inlet, and your glowplugs are working and starter cranking over fast you should be where my car is at and it doesn't sound normal.
I have my pump set by ear right now but it only gets into the 40's as of now. I have my pump set so that it idles around 950 rpm. I have the stock glowplug system in place with pimped glowplugs which I am soon replacing with a manual switch cause the stock relay just started going nuts. I let the light go off and start the car without the lever pulled and it starts rather quickly. And it will stay idling but it stumbles a bit, but not too much white smoke, just a hint. Its obvious at this time that it likes the cold start lever out so I pull it for a couple minutes and drive off. Not bad hammering going at this time but you can tell the difference.
Also if I crank it over with the lever pulled or not there isn't really a noticeable difference so I am close, but I do like the way the car seems to drive. I don't get any injector pinging throughout the range.
I did have the car running at one time advanced enough that it seemed to get a bit marbley in the mid range and I think I burnt some glowplugs as well. At that time you couldn't start the car with the lever pulled out because you could hear the starter fighting to turn the engine over.
I also would add a big fat ground from starter mount to battery just for the hell of it. It made turnovers much faster on my starter, especially when hot.
I know after watching videos of my own that its hard to convey the engine bay noise on these engines but here is one of my car for fun :) So I just start it up, then pull the handle because it seems to like it and it runs smooth cold. This is only like 40 something degrees, and it only gets into the teens for us during winter. This is just under 1000 rpm, do you have a tach on yours?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KemaWpPC5o
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When I read it, I got the impression he was letting the starter turn a couple of turns before pulling the knob out. Is that not true? He said a couple of cranks into it I pull the CS knob.
I pull knob then glow the plugs then hit the starter, with foot half way down on the accelerator. Don't you have those instructions right above your head on the sun visor? There is a label there on mine that tells me what to do when hot or cold. Picture time?
I don't have the instructions. What I meant is pulling the cold start before shut down and pulling it before cranking is the same thing.
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old worn engines not pumps...
try it...
as you crank it over and as it starts to fire pull the knob..
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When I read it, I got the impression he was letting the starter turn a couple of turns before pulling the knob out. Is that not true? He said a couple of cranks into it I pull the CS knob.
I pull knob then glow the plugs then hit the starter, with foot half way down on the accelerator. Don't you have those instructions right above your head on the sun visor? There is a label there on mine that tells me what to do when hot or cold. Picture time?
There is at least 18 different ways people say to start em ;) I don't have the sticker my car was originally a gas car that i converted last year. lol
Do you have the cold start instructions for your car from the manual? I don't have high idle on my pump but my book tells you what to do depending on temps. If you don't have air bubbles at your pump inlet, and your glowplugs are working and starter cranking over fast you should be where my car is at and it doesn't sound normal.
No instructions. :( I understand the pumps very well, I understand what is going on inside of them when all this is happening. Glowplugs seem to be working.. I did the glow and feel the plugs idea.. and they didnt feel "hot" warm sure.. but i guess they are screwed in to a huge aluminum heatsink! lol/b]
I also would add a big fat ground from starter mount to battery just for the hell of it. It made turnovers much faster on my starter, especially when hot.
Yup got that too. It is my main engine/trans ground to battery. Not the starter mount, but the next closest trans bolt lol. I Dont have any hot turnover issues at all.
I know after watching videos of my own that its hard to convey the engine bay noise on these engines but here is one of my car for fun :) So I just start it up, then pull the handle because it seems to like it and it runs smooth cold. This is only like 40 something degrees, and it only gets into the teens for us during winter. This is just under 1000 rpm, do you have a tach on yours?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KemaWpPC5o
Cool video :) nice car. However for future reference it is bad to blip the throttle with the Cold start pulled out. The throttle slamming back against the timing piston will self machine itself because of the throttle slamming against it. I have heard of it sending little flakes of aluminum through the pump.. just to forewarn. I have no tach.. I honestly set my idle to where my dashboard doesn't vibrate ;)
I always glow for longer than ten seconds if its even remotely chilly, and i always run my electric pump to keep everything primed while I'm glowing. I have tried these ways;
-Prime and glow no cold start handle. Start. runs rough but will idle fine, no need for cold start.
-Prime and glow w/cs handle out prior to cranking. start. May be harder to start? cant be sure (ive changed the timing to much to be sure).
-Prime and glow. start cranking, pull cs out on second crank. fires off. Don't know if easier or not.. tried to many ways.
-no prime just glow, no cs handle prior or after starting. fires off.
Anyway I do it it still starts.. I have messed with pump settings again to raise the idle, and it has seemed to help me out.
old worn engines not pumps...
try it...
as you crank it over and as it starts to fire pull the knob..
Engines a baby with 300k. It was super cared for by the PO. synthetics blah blah. Now I take the sumbish to 6000rpms :) lmao.
Its cold now, im goin outside! lol
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Damac, I only have the label on the visor, no owners manual just a Bent up Bentley. My car fires fine now that the air bubbles are out of the system. But it didn't do bad with them in either. But my engine is 123,000 miles young. Wish I could say the same.
I have converted my glow plugs over to the Ford relay system and have each glow on a fuse and 12 gauge wire. Which I need to check this weekend as I saw blue smoke the other day for the first time in a long time at starting. When I tested the standard system with a meter my relay would click on and after the dash light went out there was still voltage to the plugs long after the light was out. Have you run a similar test to see if the time of actual glowing is proper? Strike that I think I remember something about a full glowing at 20 seconds.
I noticed that timing for drive may affect startup as well. I hate to give up the good performance just to get the car started, and we shouldn't have to, right. I mean a proper tuning will take care of both troubles.
I installed a stiff cable to the accelerator arm on my car to allow me to rest my leg on my long drives. Call it a poor mans cruise control, high idle set or what ever but on these colder mornings once the engine is running I pull it out to bump the idle and take care of all the other stuff I need to do prior to driving away. Roll each window down and up to get rid of the moisture so I can see out, hit the wipers, install the navigation unit on the window as my speedo is way off, and belt up real good cause the people drive like nuts around me.
Have you run any automatic transmission fluid in with your diesel lately or any kind of injector cleaner? Might just be a luggy in there and it needs to get out.
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prime the car? what do you mean? does your pump loose prime?
if its hard to start cold, then your timing is usually too far retarded, or if the cold start makes it HARDER to start, then its too far advanced..
my car, it fires up with or without the cold start out, but it runs much smoother if you pull the cold start..
usually, i pull the cold start as im idling up the driveway at night, before i shut the car off..
if i fire without the cold start pulled, it misses a bit for about 20 seconds.. may have a burnt glow plug.
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I wonder if he needs to adjust the cold start lever. It only moves so much and if it is worn a bit then it may not be advancing at full pull. I did that to mine once. Had to move it over like two splines on the shaft to make it push far enough over to really do the advancement.
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how are your injectors doing? When i used to have cold start issues back in michigan i found most were attributed to either GP's or injectors. If they had crappy pattern/leaking and weren't atomizing well it made it tougher to start!
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Worst luck I'm having.. Car is doing better.. But now I'm dealing with a dead battery?? Yesterday the car sat all day.. From saturday at like 1130pm till monday 730am.. And the battery barely turned the motor over.. Jfc.
So apparently I have a draw thar doesn't make itself apparent with one day of sitting.. But it does after two nights..