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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: veector on July 06, 2011, 04:55:17 am
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Alright so as of yesterday my 1.7 gasser decided to mix coolant and oil and i've just about had it with CIS so i've decided to undertake swapping a 1.6d from a mk2 into my 81 Jetta. This is my first time swapping a diesel in and am wondering if anyone has any pointers?
Its a complete motor with a semi recent full rebuild.
thanks in advance ;)
Vic
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main concerns are
-fuel lines and tank (can i use my gasser stuff)
-stop solenoid power wire
-glow plug wiring/setup
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Super easy. If you want to make it a very nice install, I would source diesel engine mounts, wiring and fuel tank. That being said, it'll work using the gasser parts. The fuel solenoid and glow plug wiring can be figured out using the Bentley your gasser fuse box and parts sourced from a diesel parts car
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Wiring is virtually identical to the gasser, other than you can remove the coil and ignition module and use the power wire that went to the coil (as this is the switched wire) and connect this to the injector pump shut off/on. Alternator, coolant gauge, oil, etc wil be the same. Cold warm up valve, auxilary air valve, cold start injector and any other electric connections from the gasser will not be needed, if your talking MK1.
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thanks for the info, the car is indeed a mk1 and will have pretty much everything gas related ripped out except for the tank
I assume the diesel mounts are slightly tougher rubber?
Will I need to swap in a diesel fuel filler neck, some cars have a larger one to fit the diesel pump
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The diesel fuel filler neck would not have the restriction you would find on a gas car that prevents you from filling the car with leaded gasoline. You will either have to enlarge the hole to accommodate the diesel nozzle, which IIRC is the same size as the old leaded gas nozzles were, or find the diesel fuel filler neck.
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I have personally completed this swap twice within the last 6 months. That being two 1.6 mk2 diesel motors in to two 1.7 mk1 engine bays.
Here is EVERYTHING you need to know :)
The gas tank and all your fuel lines will work. The filler neck should work too, as I have yet to see an mk1 Jetta with a small filler neck. Both my 84's and my 81 have the larger filler neck. Go check yours :) and take a picture of it so we can see. For the fuel lines you will need to get under the passenger side of the rear before the axle and take the high pressure pump out of the fuel feed line. Cut the metal fuel line, flare it and then connect it to the metal barb on the side of the fuel tank with some gas/diesel rated rubber hose. Up in the engine bay you can then cut the fuel lines where they come up in to the engine bay, and mount your filter stock like on the passenger strut tower, or passenger fender. Or you can just leave the metal lines going over to the driver side and mount your filter there.
As for the motor mounts three of the four you have now will work, it would be wasteful to find "diesel specific" mounts if your are in good shape. You could replace all the rubber mounts now with HD ones while its out if you want. I assume you will use the original transmission? It will bolt up to the mk2 motor without any problem and whatever clutch you have in there will be fine. While we're on the clutch topic, have you ever driven the car this motor came out of? It might be worth while at replacing while you have everything out on the ground and accessible.. to put it together to find out you only need to take it all back apart would be horrible. Trust me, been there ;). Now this fourth mount that you will need to get, it IS a diesel specific mount only in that it holds the injection pump to the motor.
Injection Pump
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/danielseo/IMG_2498.jpg)
To remove the old mk2 mount and replace it with a diesel specific mk1 passenger side motor mount, you have to remove the injection pump from the motor.. and doing so is kind of involved if you've never worked on the vw diesel before. Not hard, just tedious, and needs to be done to a tee (T).
Read This
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
This Is What You Need
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f41/13ad_13oy/P1000574.jpg)
This is what you have on the mk2 motor -sorry for the small photo.. notice the lack of the part that mounts to the car?
(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/m/mCi4aTlLHHvXT1-Qx7RhGuw/140.jpg)
This is what you have on the 1.7 motor -essentially the mount in this picture.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/reactsystems1/album2/DSC00218.jpg)
By taking the pump off the motor and having to put the timing belt back on (which along with the tensioner should be replaced now unless you know for FACT it was done recently) you will need to reset the timing of the crank-to-cam-to-injection pump. It needs to be exact, there has been luck with the "mark and pray" method.. but a few thousandths of an inch and you have pistons touching valves.. is it worth it? possibly.. because inorder to set the timing you either need to know the procedure in the link above, or have someone who knows how.. and also has a set of these;
A Timing gauge and the appropriate hardware to lock the camshaft and pump at TDC for the timing procedure.
(http://www.emiata.com/images/VWDialGauge.jpg)
(http://www.westportparts.com/dieselvw/images/1ZTools.JPG)
The stop solenoid on the pump is easy, as stated just use the wire that originally would be a KEY-ON/START power for the coil. Glowplugs are also easy to setup. You COULD hunt down all the mk1 wiring, and be out a lotta money and time.. and still be left with a subpar glow plug system.. OR you could make your own system from scratch like I did.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/1204091555.jpg)
So what you see in this picture, is a universal lawn tractor solenoid. Essentially a big relay, one that can handle 50a continuously. . each plug pulls about 10a, so 40a with overhead. The bottom main connection goes directly to my battery + positive, the solenoid is then triggered by a very small gauge wire, as you can see the small black and white wire running up under my coolant bottle to the cabin. The main current is then transferred over to the thick grey wire, up to a buss-bar where each glow plug is then fed by its own fused 12g wire. Basically what this does, is allows an easy glow plug controller to be added to any car.. especially diesel swaps. It also now allows your glow plugs to get the most amperage they have ever seen. Instead of the power going battery, fusebox, glowplug relay, fuses, long wiring, and then the plugs.. it follows a bigger quicker route directly to them. They now see the full 12v, and 10a as compared to 8/9v and maybe 8a it saw on old stock wiring..
I think I have covered most everything, anything you think of dont hesitate to ASK!
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Look at the big brain on Jeremy LOL
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Also you will need to source a cold start cable. Mk1 or mk2. they will both work, as I have one with mk1 and one with mk2 ;)
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big big thanks 8v of fury definitely answered everything I needed to know ;D ;D ;D
now to source a mount and cold start cable
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i have an extra ip pump mount if you want it. pm me. ;)
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thanks for the help guys, seems i found a mount in my city which is quite nice ;D
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In your pm you said you have a diesel tech to help you out, this will now be just as easy as a gas swap.. Hell easier! No bs fuel systems lol.
Good Luck to you.
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thanks again, i've got the gasser out, bay degreasing followed by trimming the wiring fat.
still on the hunt for a mount ;D
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I noticed he was told to pull the high pressure pump near the tank, does the mk1 have a transfer pump in the tank like my mk2 swap? I know I had an old Fox that did.... IF there's one in the tank he'll have to deal with it too, because with the gasser stuff gone it won't get signal to turn it on.. 2 options: Run a wire that makes it go live with the key (I did it with the factory wire at the fuse panel) or remove the pump from the tank.
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mk1s do not have a transfer pump, only the one pump luckily
now that its a two pages might as well post pics :P
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I just pulled the low pressure in-tank pump on my Fox diesel swap last night. I decided to leave it in place, just to help with priming, etc. If it dies the IP should be strong enough to pull through it, and removing it is easy as pie, just replace it with a length of hose. I know most gasser CIS-E cars got the intank pump, not sure about older setups tho.
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Yep no in tank on any of the mk1 FI cars, or carbs as far as I know. Pretty much all mk2 cars (diesels excepted) will have the in tank.. I wonder what the later cabriolets have?
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just about ready to drop the car over the motor ;D
anyone have a pic of how the alt mounts up? never seen a 1.6D up close ???
also how crazy do I need to go cleaning out the gas? (gas to diesel conversion)
thanks and beers for all!!
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%25 gas mix is fine, so if you drain it that's good enough. 1/4 tank? Fill it with diesel and some additive or 2 stroke oil
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%25 gas mix is fine, so if you drain it that's good enough. 1/4 tank? Fill it with diesel and some additive or 2 stroke oil
Gas is DRY.. it will ruin your pump in short order.. good think Jeremy said something about the oil..
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okay thats good news, im going to drain it out as best as I can and just fill it to the brim with diesel.
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Oh yeah, drain it and fill it. Don't worry about cleaning it out too crazily.
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There have been people who say that the original owners manual for our cars says that you can run up to 25% gasoline in the diesel (in extreme cold weather for example). I have a copy of the manual and indeed it does say this, I can scan the page if you want.
Though, the old diesel probably lubricated it better... Yeah, it's probably a good idea to put 2 stroke oil in it.
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thanks for all the info, just torquing down the cvs at the moment. super rusty old fuel lines will need to be replaced, anyone run all rubber lines or is it better to run metal lines with rubber hose connections?
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There have been people who say that the original owners manual for our cars says that you can run up to 25% gasoline in the diesel (in extreme cold weather for example). I have a copy of the manual and indeed it does say this, I can scan the page if you want.
Though, the old diesel probably lubricated it better... Yeah, it's probably a good idea to put 2 stroke oil in it.
or bio-d
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thanks for all the info, just torquing down the cvs at the moment. super rusty old fuel lines will need to be replaced, anyone run all rubber lines or is it better to run metal lines with rubber hose connections?
I personally wouldn't run rubber line, from the tank up.. its just asking for trouble I think. Plus its probably the same price as metal fuel line..? What you could do is if you have any scrap mk2-3's in your area, steal their plastic fuel lines and run them. No corrosion, and they are hard plastic :)
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I have no clue about diesel, but my gas off road units get a keg and copper line. Copper will turn green on the outside but that is it. Stainless would work as well.
On a side note the stock plastic lines melt when you weld the floor pans in from above. Unknowinly you will have a 6 foot ball of fire, kerosene heater smell, and wonder why the floor your sitting on welding is getting so hot...ask me how I know. I should have seen if copper would work after that.
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I like comresor line 8 mmOD PA type,eazy to clamp and bend.
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okay looks like il be going coated steel lines, now I still need a water separator/fuel filter. would anything work or should I look for the mk2 flange?
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dont worry about the water seperator. People generally remove theirs anyhow..
Any mk1, mk2, or mk3 fuel filter will work. I personally prefer the latter two as they have a built-in fuel preheater system.
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thought I'd throw some pics out there for you; a few things that I ran into doing this swap (except mine was mk1->mk2)
try to find a non a/c alternator bracket. here it is sans alt.
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/88/img5127.jpg)
diesel nozzle restrictor. used a sharp wood chisel and it came out in two big pieces
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/311/img5159j.jpg)
you'll need the diesel accelerator cable or find a way to splice the diesel one onto the gasser one. the ends are different
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3657/img5231k.jpg)
for the glow plugs, I highly suggest vince's pimp your glow plugs idea
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5058/img5262a.jpg)
pics are from my swap thread
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19324.0
I also have an extra mk1 fuel filter flange if ya end up needing it...good luck
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diesel nozzle restrictor. used a sharp wood chisel and it came out in two big pieces
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/311/img5159j.jpg)
Hi
I was just wondering why your injector hole looks like something out of Ghostbusters. Even forgetting that 'ceramic' finish, I can't quite make out your heatshield ledge. Mine is below for comparison
Perhaps it's a trick of the camera perspective
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/364/sealingeffectofshieldriph7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/sealingeffectofshieldriph7.jpg/)
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thanks for clearing up a few things, im definitely considering the pimped glowplugs, PO upgraded to the conical short cycle glows.
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You may or may not need a different throttle cable. All of my volkswagens have the same throttle end.. And if its the same clip over ball type throttle cable that was on the mk1 CIS then it can be made to work ridiculously easy. Put a picture up of your pumps throttle and your throttle cable end.
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The throttle cable is good, same ball and clip type as all mk1s.
After playing around with some manifolds and having both of them crack at the flange during handling >:( , i think il stick with the orig 4/1 manifold that came with it.
what would be a good size exhaust to run? I've got a Liestritz muffler kicking around id prob throw on the end
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I personally have a 2" straight through exhaust with a cherry bomb between the downpipe and shifter in my tunnel... It goes over the axle and out the side behind my drivers tire.. Its not ANY louder than a 1.6D with an exhaust. As I have another to compare too.. However some will say there will be a ridiculous drone, where? I have yet to experience it. I drove this thing right off the manifold and it wasn't even that bad...
As long as its a sealed exhaust system and it exits out the back, you won't have a drone. The drone comes from trapped exhaust note circulating around inder the car.. Ie. A poorly built exhaust system.
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diesel nozzle restrictor. used a sharp wood chisel and it came out in two big pieces
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/311/img5159j.jpg)
Hi
I was just wondering why your injector hole looks like something out of Ghostbusters. Even forgetting that 'ceramic' finish, I can't quite make out your heatshield ledge. Mine is below for comparison
Perhaps it's a trick of the camera perspective
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/364/sealingeffectofshieldriph7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/sealingeffectofshieldriph7.jpg/)
no, I think its a trick of looking at the fuel filler neck and not the injector hole in the head. :P Don't know how they do it in the UK, but they put a restrictor on the gas cars that won't let you accidently put diesel in your car.
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Okay thanks Jer, i'l be taking it to my exhaust guy, he works wonders, all custom and veryyy reasonably priced.
thanks again to everyone for the help, I remember why I like it here way more than poortex
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diesel nozzle restrictor. used a sharp wood chisel and it came out in two big pieces
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/311/img5159j.jpg)
Hi
I was just wondering why your injector hole looks like something out of Ghostbusters. Even forgetting that 'ceramic' finish, I can't quite make out your heatshield ledge. Mine is below for comparison
Perhaps it's a trick of the camera perspective
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/364/sealingeffectofshieldriph7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/sealingeffectofshieldriph7.jpg/)
Ummm... ???
I might be a little dense here and missing the joke.. But the first pic is not of an injector location, but the filler for the fuel tank. "Nozzle" like in "Fill 'er up", not injector nozzle. Like, it's 2" wide, compared to 1/2" for the injector...
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Holy sh**e, wow what a plonker I am. I thought that messed up lug on the side was a fused glowplug :o :o I must stop these 3AM posts!
I'd be tempted to run away from this forum in shame, however, I can take being wrong, unlike some ;D
"I might be a little dense here and missing the joke.. But the first pic is not of an injector location, but the filler for the fuel tank. "Nozzle" like in "Fill 'er up", not injector nozzle. Like, it's 2" wide, compared to 1/2" for the injector..." So how come my picture is bigger than yours? ;)
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"I might be a little dense here and missing the joke.. But the first pic is not of an injector location, but the filler for the fuel tank. "Nozzle" like in "Fill 'er up", not injector nozzle. Like, it's 2" wide, compared to 1/2" for the injector..." So how come my picture is bigger than yours? ;)
LOL...
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW439.jpg (http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW439.jpg)
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW435.jpg (http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW435.jpg)
and my fav
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW389.jpg (http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW389.jpg)
It's all in the PERSPECTIVE, grasshopper! ;D
Alex
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"I might be a little dense here and missing the joke.. But the first pic is not of an injector location, but the filler for the fuel tank. "Nozzle" like in "Fill 'er up", not injector nozzle. Like, it's 2" wide, compared to 1/2" for the injector..." So how come my picture is bigger than yours? ;)
LOL...
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW439.jpg (http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW439.jpg)
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW435.jpg (http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW435.jpg)
and my fav
http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW389.jpg (http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/back-bmp/LW389.jpg)
It's all in the PERSPECTIVE, grasshopper! ;D
Alex
I like the last one too, but I still can't see the fuel cap, or injector hole for that matter 8)
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Got a bunch more work done, its running now, upgraded to the auto TDI starter and it fires up first crank without glows or the advance cable. Picked up a mk4 filter/separator which should be going on soon with some new fuel lines, tank is now drained too.
Gonna wire up a few gauges and bolt on my manifold