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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on May 16, 2011, 02:08:57 pm
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I just put a new head gasket in. 2 hole like was on the car before.. Had no time to pull, measure, then order. Its been about 1200kms but its weeping in between the head and block again... Stock HG, Stock head bolts. All OEM. Torqued to xx then half turn.. Could they use a bit more??
I mean does this usually happen?
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at the oil drain? or is it weeping coolant?
i always put silicone around all the oil drain holes.
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I just installed the new one because it took out my clutch in its path...
It leaks oil, it appears to be leaking all along the front of the engine.. Pain in my rear!
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I had a leaker there at the high pressure oil passage. When I replaced the HG, I put a tiny bit of RTV on each side of the O-ring that's part of the head gasket. No problem since then...
Chris
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Gonna need a new Headgasket, bolts, coolant, and oil then :(
sunuvabish. Thats a severe pain in my ass. #$#@!%!^
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Every one I've ever owned has leaked there. I just let it accumulate, and then powerwash it off every 6-10 months. No harm, no foul.
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Ahh, honestly I could care less of the oil leak.. other than the fact it toasted my last clutch disk (200mm solid Beetle disk) because it got in there and fouled everything up.. I fear it will do the same again.. I have a rag stuffed down in there to stop it from gathering behind the vacuum pump and leaking down in my bell-housing.
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ouch that hurts. i hope you get that ironed out
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If this clutch starts to slip, I'm gonna light the engine on fire.. outside of the car of course.. couldn't burn up my 84 lmao.
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are you POSITIVE that its not a valve cover gasket?
ive had those things make some funky leaks too.
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Leak still persists. And now I'm loosing coolant too.. $#@%.
Actually here is whats interesting, the past two days being parked in the garghe with a board under it have shown quite a big puddle of thick black oil dropped.. Yet the oil level is just where it is supposed to be (if not a tad higher than the crosshatch) from when I did an oil change with the HG early may. I did however put in 15w40 Rotella T6 Triple Protection.. which i believe is synthetic.. Causing some of my problems maybe?
I used a OEM Victor Reinz head gasket, and OEM 12mm headbolts. Torqued up to whatever, and the additional half turn. Do these require the aditional retorque after a bit? Can it be done? should it? Can it help me out?
I wouldnt be so worried if it were JUST loosing oil, and i could keep adding it.. but its dumping right behind my vacuum pump and I fear it will destroy my brand new clutch AGAIN.
I are needing your assitances. :D
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Leak still persists. And now I'm loosing coolant too.. $#@%.
Actually here is whats interesting, the past two days being parked in the garghe with a board under it have shown quite a big puddle of thick black oil dropped.. Yet the oil level is just where it is supposed to be (if not a tad higher than the crosshatch) from when I did an oil change with the HG early may. I did however put in 15w40 Rotella T6 Triple Protection.. which i believe is synthetic.. Causing some of my problems maybe?
I used a OEM Victor Reinz head gasket, and OEM 12mm headbolts. Torqued up to whatever, and the additional half turn. Do these require the aditional retorque after a bit? Can it be done? should it? Can it help me out?
I wouldnt be so worried if it were JUST loosing oil, and i could keep adding it.. but its dumping right behind my vacuum pump and I fear it will destroy my brand new clutch AGAIN.
I are needing your assitances. :D
FWIW, i havent had such good luck with victor reinz gaskets.. i prefer the fel-pro print-o-seal gaskets.. they have silicone around all the important passages right from the factory..
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Do the Fel-Pro's have like an orange ring around vital passages?
I do believe the VR gasket I bought had this as well. I shoulda siliconed it... sumbish.
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yea, reddish orange ring of sealant around everything important..
and a ring all the way around the edge of the gasket.
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Pretty sure my VR had this... Dunno.
Can I retorque?
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well, to me, you can re-torque normal bolts, but i wouldnt do it with stretch bolts. but its not like you are out anything, the bolts are already yielded, give them a re-torque before your leaks get too bad. might help. my grandpa did a re-torque on his stretch bolts and fixed a leak that he had..
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Well I mean lets look at why it didn't seal properly.. ???
I cleaned up both mating surfaces of the head and block, they were both perfectly clean to my best knowledge. Even gave them a quick over down with a fine sanding block.
What is the value they are torqued too after the torquing process? like some number then add 1/2 turn right so where does that put us for torque?
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44 ft lbs, plus two quarter turns, or a half turn at once..
i believe that these bolts yield at 110-120 ' #s
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Plus the quarter after first warm up and then after 1000 miles, right.
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Plus the quarter after first warm up and then after 1000 miles, right.
Is this required on OEM bolts? I don't have studs.
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Plus the quarter after first warm up and then after 1000 miles, right.
Is this required on OEM bolts? I don't have studs.
we were talking about the stretch bolts yo..
if you put 44 ft lbs on a stud, and then a full turn, it would probably squish the gasket bad, or break the stud.
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I think I will try an extra quarter turn for a total of 3/4 turn after torque.
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Plus the quarter after first warm up and then after 1000 miles, right.
Is this required on OEM bolts? I don't have studs.
we were talking about the stretch bolts yo..
if you put 44 ft lbs on a stud, and then a full turn, it would probably squish the gasket bad, or break the stud.
... or rip the threads out of the cast iron block!
Good advice to just try the re-torque, even a 1/4 turn using a beam-type torque wrench as a driver, to let you know what the bolt heads are 'feeling'. And I have to second R.O.R-2.0's comment about the possibility of a leaky valve cover gasket. Could your thick puddles beneath the car (partly) be the results of fresh synthetic oil leaks washing old oil deposits off the subframe? (No offense meant; just based on noted appearances of quite a few VW diesel underbody surfaces, several of mine included!)
IDK about the Rotella synthetics, but Amsoil has definitely unplugged previously-unknown leaks on a couple of my gassers. Had a customer with same experience on his Porsche: switched it back from Amsoil to Castrol non-synthetic & his fuel mileage suffered but oil leaks subsided! Seems like it happens mostly on fairly high-mileage vehicles' being switched to synthetic engine oil, but I've never had it happen when the swap to Amsoil was done as soon as a new engine was broken in. Have even heard rumors of the same leakage scenario with swaps to Mobil 1.
J.R.
SoCal
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Guess I'm switching back to dino oil ;) The rotella was on sale, $16 for the 5L jug. However come to think of it, im pretty sure its been on synthetic since the first oil change with the original owner. you shoulda seen the car this motor came out of.. if he didn't crash it by falling asleep.. SPOTLESS!
I agree with the valve cover gasket leakage being plausible, however NO new leaks on the head.. just on the block. Seems to be quite the leak down the front of the block between the 3rd and 4th cylinder (like there was before!).
However, I haven't noticed any loss according to the dipstick.. I fear the coolant is leaking pressure in to the oil after i shut the car down.. Engine has not been over heated to my knowledge. THERE WEREN'T EVEN CRACKS IN BETWEEN THE VALVES ON THE HEAD!! :D:D:D This engine is in really good shape.
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That's right where the high pressure oil passage is. My bet is that the head isn't quite flat in that area and you're leaking past the rubber O-ring...
Chris
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Looks like Spearco is the only one that's read the manual as well...
44 ft-lbs + half turn at initial assembly.
One warm-up cycle & with engine warm, an additional quarter turn.
After 1000 miles, with engine warm or cold, one final quarter turn.
Chris
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Cover to cover, at least twice. Good reading.
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I had one leak there. What I did wrong was I didn't have the HG tightly around the stud/bolt and it slid a bit. I thought it was no big deal I just slid it back up with the head on so I knew where to put it. That is the only thing I did differently than normal and it leaked like crazy. Put a new HG on the same engine and head 2 weeks later with new bolts too and NO LEAKS. I was much more careful that time and it worked. Other than the slipping gasket there was no difference in my technique so I think I must have caused the o ring go junk.
Maybe you did something similar?
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Spearco, Toats wasn't doubting.. but i have never heard (nor did my sh!tty hanes tell me) that you do that to stock bolts! Interesting!
Tomorrow morning I will be doing a warm half turn then? seeing as how i didn't do the 1/4 after first warm-up?
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The hydro head is the only one that has that tourqe sequence. Kind of dumb if you ask me but thats VW for ya. You are working on a hydro head right?
Just put some ARP bolts in it.
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Yes, I am working on a hydro motor.
I agree ARP is the way to go, but am not entirely sure this motor will be in the car much longer. I am thinking TDI to this car.. OR taking the T bits from the TDI and putting them on my 1.6 for now??
Its up in the air..
BUT yes to the warm half-turn??
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My book gives that as the sequence for the triple square head bolts (somewhat different for the older socket-head bolts). I understand it to be specific to head bolt type and not whether it's a mechanical or hydro head.
Chris
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Ok, head bolt specific. I have the 12mm triple square.
Warm 1/2 turn is good then?
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My book gives that as the sequence for the triple square head bolts (somewhat different for the older socket-head bolts). I understand it to be specific to head bolt type and not whether it's a mechanical or hydro head.
Chris
this is also my understanding. IIRC (no book here right now) the triple square bolts do not require a retorque after 1k miles. Only the 6pt bolt do. FWIW, I have ARPs on my car and it leaks. FML.
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IIRC (no book here right now) the triple square bolts do not require a retorque after 1k miles. Only the 6pt bolt do. FWIW, I have ARPs on my car and it leaks. FML.
Triple square do require 1k mile retorque. Let's not let this get into a confusing mess. What I posted earlier was direct from the Bentley.
To 8VOF: I would give it that extra half turn. I think that as long as you aren't seeing any combustion pressure into the coolant, you should be OK on the gasket seal. Half turn in one continuous motion is a bit much. If you have to break it up into smaller turns, I'd probably do (2) quarter turns, each in a smooth, continuous motion as the Bentley requires, while following the standard torque procedure between each quarter turn.
Chris
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The book right here says, MF and ME require an additional 1/2 turn at 1k miles.
Also, I thought that all hydro heads have triple square bolts anyways.
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IIRC (no book here right now) the triple square bolts do not require a retorque after 1k miles. Only the 6pt bolt do. FWIW, I have ARPs on my car and it leaks. FML.
Triple square do require 1k mile retorque. Let's not let this get into a confusing mess. What I posted earlier was direct from the Bentley.
Not trying to at all. Thanks for the clarification :thumbup:
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Apologies if that came across even remotely rude 8)
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My book gives that as the sequence for the triple square head bolts (somewhat different for the older socket-head bolts). I understand it to be specific to head bolt type and not whether it's a mechanical or hydro head.
Chris
this is also my understanding. IIRC (no book here right now) the triple square bolts do not require a retorque after 1k miles. Only the 6pt bolt do. FWIW, I have ARPs on my car and it leaks. FML.
6pt bolts require a re-torque because they are re-useable non-stretch bolts.. 1.5, and early 1.6Ds were the engines to come with these bolts..