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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: tdotdub on April 26, 2011, 04:17:39 pm
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So I'm not a complete newbie but have my moments. Here is one...
So I got an 1987 audi 5000 diesel quattro
What is done to my engine
Giles pump and new injectors from bosch.
So far I did my swap, and everything by my self but I hit the wall with the most simple thing
I want to upgrade my stock k24 turbo to an k26 off an audi 5000 cd quattro (gaser)
How would I do this? I would put the manifold, turbo, wastegate, downpipe, intercooler setup all over from the gaser (got a parts car). But here is now where I have my question. Is there any difference in how the management of running the k26 to the k24? And if so how could I mod it to work to my diesel?
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Hi, I assume you have the 2.0 TD with K24? I think it's straight swap, but you'll want to plumb the wastegate directly to the intake manifold instead of through the WG frequency valve mounted to the firewall. In this case the electronics will be completely removed and wastegate spring will do all of the work.
I'm sure not all K24s were created equally, but the ones on the '91 200 TQ 20Vs were good for something like 275 HP. I'm not sure what the K24s off the 2.0 TDs are capable of. I think the K26 you'll be swapping on should be good for about 250 HP or something like that. I fear it may be a bit laggy though.
I'm interested to see pics. I have a '89 100 Quattro w/ TD and K24 myself.
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hey, I am a 5000CS veteran having owned a few over the years. The gasser k24 is good for ~275 MAX crank hp on a gasser, k26 is about the same. I would not put a gasser k26 on a diesel, it wont spool, ever. The k24 from a gasser would be nice on a diesel as a power upgrade, a little later spool, but way more flow than the diesel k24. Anyways, cool car, wanted to make my wagon one, but it died in a towing accident. On to the small chassis cars, I am converting an Audi also.
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Hi, Thanks for the replies guys :)
Yes I do fear it may be a laggy... BUT since I got a performance rebuilt injection pump I NEED and intercooler and NEED to keep the EGT's low. So with the complete k26 set up I can have this (reason has an intercooler and a dual downpipe set up) . Also I douth it will be a bit laggy reason is ALOT of fueling, and the audi had a big diesel rev band (more than vdubs).. Also the diesel pump is modded to up to 30 psi of boost.. So I am confident.
And does anyone know where I can get a different wastegate springs for my k26 turbo?
But I'll keep u guys posted ;)
Rabbid79.. Yes, u pin pointed my question. I kinda have an idea what you talking about and thats exactly what I want to do! I want to delete the electronic side of it :D But what do you mean by plumb the wastegate? And are you sure this would work?
Pics shall come soonish.
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Yes, pretty sure. It's just a conventional poppet-style wastgate. The spring pressure in some of the older ones is even adjustable with an allen wrench. There's a plate that needs to be removed from the top cover to access the bolt.
There's also a "vent" side to the wastegate that you'll want to vent to atmosphere. If memory serves, this is the side of the WG that is actually connected to the frequency valve on the firewall.
Anyway, you will need to connect the WG directly to the intake manifold. If I remember correctly, it uses a pretty heavy duty pressure line that will be a lot larger than the nipple on the intake manifold, so you'll need to adapt with some kind of transition fitting.
You can give the K26 a try, and then if it doesn't work, take BW's advice and use a K24 off a gasser. The mating flanges should be similar to the K26.
Are you also going to connect the water cooling lines to the K26?
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And does anyone know where I can get a different wastegate springs for my k26 turbo?
http://www.034motorsport.com/engine-components-audi-i5-20vt-audi-wastegate-spring-22bar-p-603.html
They have 1.9bar as well and a bunch of other good stuff for the c3/c4 cars.
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beat me to it! The gasser k26 has a HUGE turbine, like it will support ~420hp of flow while the compressor has ~250hp of flow. Not a good match for a diesel. The gasser k24 is your best choice with the performance pump and intercooler, it was designed to have spool at around 2200rpm on a 2.2l twincam gas engine which means it should spool at the same time on your diesel and has enough flow to run to the top of the rev range on the diesel even with the intercooler. The gas k24 and k26 have identical mounting provisions, ar, water and oil are the same, so if you wanna try the k26 first as you have one, go for it. You will just be looking for a k24 while you work out the bugs.
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Hi, I assume you have the 2.0 TD with K24? I think it's straight swap, but you'll want to plumb the wastegate directly to the intake manifold instead of through the WG frequency valve mounted to the firewall. In this case the electronics will be completely removed and wastegate spring will do all of the work.
I'm sure not all K24s were created equally, but the ones on the '91 200 TQ 20Vs were good for something like 275 HP. I'm not sure what the K24s off the 2.0 TDs are capable of. I think the K26 you'll be swapping on should be good for about 250 HP or something like that. I fear it may be a bit laggy though.
I'm interested to see pics. I have a '89 100 Quattro w/ TD and K24 myself.
the K26 is NOT a bolt on upgrade.. i have a gasser K26, and a 2.0TD k24. along with the rest of the 2.0TD.. the manifold has a rectangular flange.. the K26 has a flange just like a volvo 740 gasser turbo.. and no waste gate. K26s off audis are external wastegated..
the K24 works good on the 2.0TD i thought..
my engine was so worn out it used as much oil as fuel. it still had good power from the K24..
idk what you are trying to achieve here, but you will find that the K26 is gonna have ALOT more lag than the K24, the exhaust side of the K26 flows way better, but it also spools slower, and like was noted, the K26 hot side is way too big for its own good.. the cold side cant keep up with the hot side..
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the K26 is NOT a bolt on upgrade.. i have a gasser K26, and a 2.0TD k24. along with the rest of the 2.0TD.. the manifold has a rectangular flange.. the K26 has a flange just like a volvo 740 gasser turbo.. and no waste gate. K26s off audis are external wastegated..
R.O.R., he has all of the parts off of the 5000 Turbo, turbo, manifold, downpipe, wastegate, oil lines, etc., so YES, it is a bolt-on upgrade.
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Rabbid79 -yes I will connect the coolant lines to the turbo.
I MIGHT start pulling the k26 turbo off the parts car tomorrow, or Friday. And yes its 50 50 what people say on the k26 turbo. But here is a few things why i'm going to do it.
-have a complete parts car
-and last season my turbo started leaking oil. So I put my performance diesel pump on it. First rip around the block had loads of power and than nothing. No matter what I do with the turbo no power from one second to the next. So chances are I blew it. Oh well
mystery3 - thanks for that link. First I will throw my turbo on than get that if it all works out great :)
Still don't exactly know how to plumb the turbo but my friend said he will tell me how to do it tomorrow :) So its coming along nice! And guys I should have some pics soonish!
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To plumb the turbo per se, use everything on the passenger side of the 5000 gasser. The exhaust manifold, wastegate, downpipe, oil cooler/filter adapter/lines from the gasser, I dont think the diesel turbo is water cooled so plug the holes in the turbo for those, use the diesel intake manifold, using the k26 you will want to leave the wastegate boost lines disconnected as it will limit boost to ~18psi and spool quickest that way. And yea, use the gasser intercooler too! Should be a nice setup that way, an s4 k24 will probably be the nuts too as those can do 23psi thru the midrange on a 10v gasser and make 210whp. Awesome build man!
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The problem with using the diesel intake manifold is you'll need to find a throttle body that matches its mounting flange. The TB from the donor car may or may not work.
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why on earth would you need a throttle body on a diesel?!
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why on earth would you need a throttle body on a diesel?!
So you can easily connect the intercooler hose to it! Cut me some slack man! Obviously you would remove the butterfly valves.
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Why remove them. Leave them in there, wire it open, and in the case of runaway, release the throttle plates.
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Why remove them. Leave them in there, wire it open, and in the case of runaway, release the throttle plates.
That's an even better idea. ;)
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Really, why not. I've got one of those old Redline/Weber 3" big throttle bodies that would fit my engine perfectly.
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Really, why not. I've got one of those old Redline/Weber 3" big throttle bodies that would fit my engine perfectly.
No sarcasm, that really is a good idea. I was considering reversing the spring on my TB for the very purpose, but decided that the holes on either side where the shaft mounts would make a good place to mount methanol injection nozzles.
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I have the K26 in my Audi Quattro, and it's even laggy on a 2.2 petrol engine, a diesel engine has less exhaust energy than a petrol car with the same displacement, so your car being a diesel and lower displacement will have a really hard time getting that turbo to spool....
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FYI, there's a used K24 from a 200 20V for sale on audifans.com for $60.
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Really, why not. I've got one of those old Redline/Weber 3" big throttle bodies that would fit my engine perfectly.
No sarcasm, that really is a good idea. I was considering reversing the spring on my TB for the very purpose, but decided that the holes on either side where the shaft mounts would make a good place to mount methanol injection nozzles.
ive thought about it before, the throttle plates completely close on a gasser TB.. but i feel it would be a restriction to the intake..
the big weber 3" may not be, but the progressive VW unit, i bet is restrictive..
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So lets make this less dry.. Here is a not so good pic of my audi. Last june, at junejitter bug!
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/IMG_1548.jpg)
now the donor car where I am getting everything from
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/photo.jpg)
And after working a bit on it... I stopped cuz it got dark and I got tired.
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/photo2.jpg)
As you can see, I also got a spare k26 turbo sitting around :)
BillyWillicker - Thanks i'll shall do that very soon when I throw my turbo on :)
rabbid79 - Yes I am planning on running the gasser intake manifold, and than the intercooler would be easy to put on. Today, I also toyed with the idea on putting the intercooler on the k24 and leaving it as is.. But its not so easy. And who am I kidding I want the k26 ;)
Powered by Spearco - Yes I was actually already debating on that. It would be cool if I could actually make it work. But lets not get that far ahead yet. But if everything goes well this should be on the car and running maybe sunday.
Sadly I don't think I will have time to work on it tomorrow. But I got to keep a good progress with this project, cuz summer shows are almost here. And still need to do some body work (damn rust)
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Update
Okay... who ever said a k26 is not a bolt on set up is CORRECT. BUT no one pin pointed it why. The reason is. The waste-gate DOES NOT CLEAR the pump timing belt.. fml. So the waste-gates needs to be moved. Pics to come why it does not clear it soon.
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Just seeing pictures of under the hood of a gasser 5000 makes my stomach turn. Instilled my hate for Audis. But of course a diesel, that's a different story
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Update
Okay... who ever said a k26 is not a bolt on set up is CORRECT. BUT no one pin pointed it why. The reason is. The waste-gate DOES NOT CLEAR the pump timing belt.. fml. So the waste-gates needs to be moved. Pics to come why it does not clear it soon.
i called it, and everybody acted like i was smoking crack, so i just sat back and waited for my point to be proven all on its own. that was alot easier than arguing with anyone. 8)
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the K26 is NOT a bolt on upgrade.. i have a gasser K26, and a 2.0TD k24. along with the rest of the 2.0TD.. the manifold has a rectangular flange.. the K26 has a flange just like a volvo 740 gasser turbo.. and no waste gate. K26s off audis are external wastegated..
i called it, and everybody acted like i was smoking crack, so i just sat back and waited for my point to be proven all on its own. that was alot easier than arguing with anyone.
R.O.R., it looks like you were right and I was wrong. Due to the WG clearance issue, it is not a bolt on upgrade. Perhaps next time you might say actually say "The wastegate and the fuel injection pump belt will interfere with each other", instead of your vague original comment about being externally wastegated.
I believe that if you had actually known what the problem would be, you wouldn't have let the guy waste time trying it for himself. You would have said "Look at the pictures dude, the wastegate is in the way of the FI pump belt."
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the K26 is NOT a bolt on upgrade.. i have a gasser K26, and a 2.0TD k24. along with the rest of the 2.0TD.. the manifold has a rectangular flange.. the K26 has a flange just like a volvo 740 gasser turbo.. and no waste gate. K26s off audis are external wastegated..
i called it, and everybody acted like i was smoking crack, so i just sat back and waited for my point to be proven all on its own. that was alot easier than arguing with anyone.
R.O.R., it looks like you were right and I was wrong. Due to the WG clearance issue, it is not a bolt on upgrade. Perhaps next time you might say actually say "The wastegate and the fuel injection pump belt will interfere with each other", instead of your vague original comment about being externally wastegated.
I believe that if you had actually known what the problem would be, you wouldn't have let the guy waste time trying it for himself. You would have said "Look at the pictures dude, the wastegate is in the way of the FI pump belt."
your right, i could have elaborated, but it was easiest to just say nothing.. because knowing me, it probably would have gotten into a heater arguement some how.. so i just left it alone.. sorry i had to let him find out the hard way.. and i wasnt positive that it was the WG or what made it not work, i just know i was asking my friend about doing a K26 swap on my audi, and he said it doesnt fit, so i dropped it. so i actually learned something too. i knew it didnt work, i just didnt know exactly what didnt work. sorry guys..
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your right, i could have elaborated, but it was easiest to just say nothing.. because knowing me, it probably would have gotten into a heater arguement some how.. so i just left it alone.. sorry i had to let him find out the hard way.. and i wasnt positive that it was the WG or what made it not work, i just know i was asking my friend about doing a K26 swap on my audi, and he said it doesnt fit, so i dropped it. so i actually learned something too. i knew it didnt work, i just didnt know exactly what didnt work. sorry guys..
Thanks R.O.R., that makes sense. I think we all learned something new. I had actually thought about doing this same thing sometime down the road, so I'm glad to know now that it doesn't work. Let's put this behind us.
tdotdub, thanks for the pics, you car looks good. Where is the rust on your car? These Audis usually have pretty good corosion resistance.
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Well I still have not given this up yet... I am toying with making this work. And I'll keep you guys posted how it happens. (should be on my car this week if it all goes well). And I actually think my idea could be done easy/inexpensive.
But i'm getting told not to, since it will be too laggy. So unless I can pull serious power out of the stock one (in the next 2 days). Than this turbo will HAVE TO fit.
We do learn something new every day. I swear, when I found out the WG does not clear. I was thinking DAMN IT R.O.R was right!
the caveman- I agree with you 100 percent. My battle with malfunctioning CIS-E was 3 years. It was so bad, that I was using 18-20 Liters per hundred kms! I don't even want to know how much that is in MPG! (cuz I would cry). And I KNOW I AM RIGHT, my reasoning is 3 of my friends calculated all my tanks! Sooooo one day I lost control on the interstate and damaged my fender and my rear door. Than I was unable to find a used door. Never the less, in my search I found a forsale audi 5000 diesel
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp348/tdotdub/Picture004.jpg)
The parts 2wd diesel audi... This diesel engine is SOOO fun in a quattro!
Rabbid79- Well its not bad on rust. Nothing like my mk3! I guess, I am picky. So I'm replacing 3 or 4 doors, this month. Oh and 2 fenders. Well and the hood (not due to surface rust, but ratter it got backed into and bent it beyond repair... damn hit and run). The panels I will paint my self for this year (I paint decent). But with time (next year), I will repaint the whole car at the body shop.
keep posted for updates on the k26....
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tdotdub, glad to hear the rust isn't too bad. I'd really be interested in some pictures of the engine compartment of that Type 44 diesel parts car. My diesel conversion is mostly complete (working on intercooler currently), but I always like to see first hand how the factory did stuff.
There are a couple parts you may want from it for your conversion that are unique to the diesel such as the fuel filler neck, air filter box, air box to turbo hose, instrument cluster, downpipe, etc. If it has the NC engine code, and you're interested in selling engine parts, let me know.
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i thought the K24 on the diesel did pretty good honestly.. mine used to do 20 psi pretty easy..
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The K24 from 1.6TD is NOT the same as the one from 2.2T....
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The K24 from 1.6TD is NOT the same as the one from 2.2T....
you mean 2.0TD?
im aware that 1.6 K24s are WAY DIFFERENT from a 2.0TD K24.. i own a 2.0TD (the whole engine) i know its different physically, dunno about internally tho.. i know the wastegate is in a different spot on the 2.0 unit, and it has a different flange..
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I meant what I wrote, the 2.2 petrol turbo inline 5 engines. There are many suggestions in this thread to use the K26 or the K24 from petrol engines, but they are sized completely wrong for a diesel.
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I meant what I wrote, the 2.2 petrol turbo inline 5 engines. There are many suggestions in this thread to use the K26 or the K24 from petrol engines, but they are sized completely wrong for a diesel.
the K24 or 26 from a gasser has a HUGE hot side on them. way bigger than any of the diesel turbos.. yea, the gasser units are gonna have alot more lag than the appropriate diesel turbo..