VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: adi on April 15, 2011, 07:24:30 am
-
I've shimmed the governor 4mm today, when we put it all back together and started it, it was idling at 3k rpm! The idle speed screw is not even touching the throttle lever, so we wound the max fuel screw right out until it idles at 1k rpm. However, it only seems marginally quicker than it was before, still peaking at around 18psi. Plus it barely smokes at all on boost, however it chucks out big clouds of the black stuff off boost. Any idea how I can wind the max fuel screw in for more power while keeping the idle speed low?
-
you put the throttle lever back on the wrong spline
gov mod only makes more fueling in the upper ranges possible, down low, power will be ths same
-
Its 100% on the correct spline, I marked it with a scribe. Although if I did fit it a spline out, would this make all the difference?
-
Its 100% on the correct spline, I marked it with a scribe. Although if I did fit it a spline out, would this make all the difference?
most definitely..
-
OK I'm willing to give moving it a spline a go... Should I turn it one spline clockwise? It had about quarter of a turn free play in it without the springs and lever on, so should I just turn it one spline clockwise or all the way to the other end of its freeplay?
I should also mention that my governor was missing the idle spring!! Is this normal for a UK spec GTD?
-
1 spline CCW usually..
-
Next week I'm going to have the lever and springs off it again, I think it only has that quarter of a turn free play because its missing the idle spring on the governor. I'l take the lever off and mount it the quarter of a turn clockwise to the other end of the freeplay. According to my knowledge that should make the throttle lever actually sit against the idle adjust screw, and also allow me to wind the max fuel screw in (quite a lot) without raising the idle speed to excess speeds ;D
-
Next week I'm going to have the lever and springs off it again, I think it only has that quarter of a turn free play because its missing the idle spring on the governor. I'l take the lever off and mount it the quarter of a turn clockwise to the other end of the freeplay. According to my knowledge that should make the throttle lever actually sit against the idle adjust screw, and also allow me to wind the max fuel screw in (quite a lot) without raising the idle speed to excess speeds ;D
this is the whole point of moving the throttle arm a couple splines..
-
I don't remember reading anything about moving the lever a couple of splines in the governor mod thread? And I read it about 3 times! Oh well, at least I know what I need to do to extract a silly amount of extra horses. And in other good news its still running well with the throttle lever where it is and the max fuel screw right out.
-
I don't remember reading anything about moving the lever a couple of splines in the governor mod thread? And I read it about 3 times! Oh well, at least I know what I need to do to extract a silly amount of extra horses. And in other good news its still running well with the throttle lever where it is and the max fuel screw right out.
you can do the gov mod with stock fueling, but it works better if you move the pump arm a couple splines, and wind that fuel screw way in there. but mileage does suffer, because with all that added extra power, you will be using it!
-
I'm not worried about losing some MPGs, I'm running it on 60% veg oil at almost half the price of diesel! Once I've moved the throttle lever, and wound the max fuel screw in, should I expect a transformation in pulling power? At the minute it runs fine, smokes quite a bit off boost, makes a fine grey haze on boost, however I'm suffering with boost creep. It will peak at 18psi but if I keep on the go pedal it will creep to 20psi which makes me worry for the safety of the standard head gasket!
-
Right, that didn't go to plan! I took the throttle lever off, and turned the rod CW quarter of a turn until it wouldn't go anymore. Put it back on, it revved straight into the redline. Took it all off again, this time I turned the rod CCW quarter of a turn until it hit the resistance of the intermediate spring, then turned it CW one spline. It runs, idles at 900rpm, however there is a lot of throttle lever play before it actually speeds up. If I turn the max fuel screw in it raises the idle. I did try winding the idle adjust screw in all the way until it started to raise the idle, then I wound the max fuel screw in, raising the idle speed again. Hoping the idle would go back down, I wound the idle screw out, but nothing!
I really need help with this guys, its getting really old now!
Can anyone tell me how the flat screw drive sits on the top of the governor rod, in relationship to the two scribed marks on the 1st lever assembly? As I think this maybe the key to getting it set up correctly... I hope!
-
Adjust by ONE SPLINE AT A TIME, not by quarter of a turn... :o
-
Thats what I've been doing, but I'm no sure which direction I should actually be going in. And when I'm being told to turn it CCW, is that the throttle lever, or the actual rod with the flat head screw drive on top? Its currently set with the two scribe marks on the lower throttle lever one spline CCW of the flat head drive on top of the rod, and it runs OK at this, however the idle adjust still does nothing, and the max fuel screw is wound right out.
I've just had an idea! Can someone show me a picture of how they're idle adjust screw and max fuel screws are set? Just so I can get a basic screw setting to go off, then adjust my governor rod spline by spline until it runs correctly.
-
I need the car running so I've put it all back to how it was before and its absolutely gutless! Its also got a fuel leak out from the max fuel screw, which I'm guessing is the O-ring at fault. We had to remove the screw from the pump when we had it open to remove the anti-tamper collar which was well on there! This is just getting worse and worse >:( wish I'd never bothered taking it apart to do the governor mod now ::)
-
Right, that didn't go to plan! I took the throttle lever off, and turned the rod CW quarter of a turn until it wouldn't go anymore. Put it back on, it revved straight into the redline. Took it all off again, this time I turned the rod CCW quarter of a turn until it hit the resistance of the intermediate spring, then turned it CW one spline. It runs, idles at 900rpm, however there is a lot of throttle lever play before it actually speeds up. If I turn the max fuel screw in it raises the idle. I did try winding the idle adjust screw in all the way until it started to raise the idle, then I wound the max fuel screw in, raising the idle speed again. Hoping the idle would go back down, I wound the idle screw out, but nothing!
I really need help with this guys, its getting really old now!
Can anyone tell me how the flat screw drive sits on the top of the governor rod, in relationship to the two scribed marks on the 1st lever assembly? As I think this maybe the key to getting it set up correctly... I hope!
you turn the lever CCW.. the shaft stays stationary. and now that you have adjusted it without knowing exactly how to, your gonna have to do some trial and error till you get it right..
-
I've been trial and erroring all day and not really got anywhere ::)
Does the governor rod with the flat head screw drive on top want to be set all the way clockwise, then put the throttle lever on one spline CCW of where it was originally? If so I'l put it there and see what it runs like, although I think thats how its set at the moment, and its struggling to make any decent boost and is slower than it was as standard.
-
idk how to explain it. i just started up my car, and had the throttle lever sitting on the shaft. then i started turning the shaft and lever till i got it where i wanted it. sometimes, if your fuel screw is too far out, it will make it have a lazy throttle. sounds like you are just going too many splines if you get redline, and then hardly any throttle.. you are just not finding the sweet spot.
-
Calm down, until you become a master mechanic, there will be some trial and error as you learn. I blew up a transmission less than 5,000 miles after a clutch install. Was it my fault? No...it was just the tranny's time.
Now, I'm no expert, but I think (just from reading what you're writing)...you're mistaking how to make adjustments to the throttle levers on the spline. You don't turn the spline, you move the lever around the spline, CCW, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, someone). One spline off can make a huge difference. (from what I've read), or if you're trying to turn the splines and put the lever back on in the same spot, you're really shooting yourself in the foot.
Recheck your work, and re-read your info.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24323.0
-
Calm down, until you become a master mechanic, there will be some trial and error as you learn. I blew up a transmission less than 5,000 miles after a clutch install. Was it my fault? No...it was just the tranny's time.
Now, I'm no expert, but I think (just from reading what you're writing)...you're mistaking how to make adjustments to the throttle levers on the spline. You don't turn the spline, you move the lever around the spline, CCW, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, someone). One spline off can make a huge difference. (from what I've read), or if you're trying to turn the splines and put the lever back on in the same spot, you're really shooting yourself in the foot.
Recheck your work, and re-read your info.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24323.0
You got it Trav!
-
Trav, you are a legend. I was at 1st keeping the throttle lever stationary, whilst turning the splined rod! I have had it in a position about 3 times where its given it a VERY lazy throttle and its either been lazy in getting back to idle after a rev or it just doesn't want to rev at all. I've just had another play with it, and I think I've got it back somewhere close to how it was before I messed with it. It pulls into boost again, however the max fuel screw is still way out and it has an idle of about 1100rpm.
So if I manage to get the lever in the correct place on the rod, it will allow me to have full use of the max fuel screw AND the idle adjustment?
-
Trav, you are a legend. I was at 1st keeping the throttle lever stationary, whilst turning the splined rod! I have had it in a position about 3 times where its given it a VERY lazy throttle and its either been lazy in getting back to idle after a rev or it just doesn't want to rev at all. I've just had another play with it, and I think I've got it back somewhere close to how it was before I messed with it. It pulls into boost again, however the max fuel screw is still way out and it has an idle of about 1100rpm.
So if I manage to get the lever in the correct place on the rod, it will allow me to have full use of the max fuel screw AND the idle adjustment?
i told you to just turn the lever many posts ago..
and if your fuel screw is out, and its still idling at 1100, you went a spline too far. go 1 spline CW, then turn your fuel screw in to compensate.
this mod is so that you can wind your fuel screw way in there, and still have an adjustable idle..
if you still have to adjust the idle with the max fuel screw, then you did something wrong..
after i did this mod, i was able to go almost 3 full turns farther in with my fuel screw, and still adjust my idle. my car will idle at about 300 rpms fwiw..
-
I may have missed it, its just all this messing with splines has confused my simple brain very much in the last few days!
How long roughly should the idle screw be from the throttle stop to the casting of the pump? It can't have been right before I even took the pump apart, as it was never touching the lever!
-
I may have missed it, its just all this messing with splines has confused my simple brain very much in the last few days!
How long roughly should the idle screw be from the throttle stop to the casting of the pump? It can't have been right before I even took the pump apart, as it was never touching the lever!
if it was never touching the lever before you took it apart, then your throttle cable was too tight.. have you ever checked the tension of the throttle cable?
and im sorry if splines make your brain hurt.. you shouldnt let those splines get the best of you tho, they really dont have that much mental capacity.. lol
my idle screw is just barely sticking thru the boss it threads into. maybe 2mm sticking out to get me at a nice idle..
-
OK, thats about the position my throttle lever is in now, so going completely against the rule, I really need to turn the splines instead of the lever :o
I have had to adjust the postion of the cable a few times to get it to work in the various positions the lever has been in over this trial and error period, so when I'm done it definately won't be too tight! Is the fact my governor is missing the idle spring causing all this difficulty?
-
OK, thats about the position my throttle lever is in now, so going completely against the rule, I really need to turn the splines instead of the lever :o
I have had to adjust the postion of the cable a few times to get it to work in the various positions the lever has been in over this trial and error period, so when I'm done it definately won't be too tight! Is the fact my governor is missing the idle spring causing all this difficulty?
your governor has no idle spring at all? like it only has the 2 main springs in the cage? no idle spring outside the cage?
wow, surprised it even runs. :o
and the position of your max fuel screw also has a big impact on where the idle is set at. you would have to have your fuel screw in the EXACT SAME SPOT as mine is, for your idle screw to be in the same spot as mine..
just because my pump runs great how it is set up, does not mean your pump will run great how mine is set up..
you have 3 variables to mess with in this equasion..
the throttle lever, the max fuel screw, and the idle screw..
if the max fuel screw is too far out, it will be lazy, and low on power. too far in, and it wont return to idle, and may not idle at all (as you already found out, it goes to red line)
if the lever is on the wrong splines, it will also be lazy, and low on power.. or not idle at all, or be at redline again..
next time, DO NOT open up your pump until you know EXACTLY what you are doing. then you dont have this happen to you..
-
I told you lot when I 1st had problems it was missing :P
This is my governor before I shimmed it, poor quality, but you get the idea...
(http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp210/evee_photo/150420111670.jpg)
I believe this is why I have quarter of a turn freeplay in the splined rod, because there is no spring there to take up the play...
-
:o :o
wow!
just wow.....
-
Maybe this is why my idle adjust screw does nothing?
-
no, your idle screw should still work. just not right..
if i were you, i would stop where you are, take a bunch of deep breathes, and find either a new governor that has not been tampered with, or else find all the missing parts for your pump..
-
I'l leave it as it is for now then while its running OK, and speak to my local bosch pump specialist and see if they can get hold of my missing spring. I need the O ring for the max fuel screw anyway. Just hope it doesn't cost a fortune! The yellow paint on all the adjustment screws was present before I messed with it, so is there any reason my car is missing the spring? Not many people over here mess with GTD's with them being so rare, so I can't just ask on the mk2 owners forum as no-one will have a clue what I'm talking about!
-
you can take the pump top off without disturbing any of the yellow paint.. so someone could have had it open and lost the spring (hopefully)
or else it fell off the shaft some how, and the spring, washers, and clip are all floating around the pump somewhere.. (worst case scenario)
-
It was very clean inside my pump, and there doesn't seem to be any clips or washers missing compared to the governor pic on the link to the 2010 version of the mod. I just can't understand why it would have been removed. Hopefully the bosch specialists will understand what I'm talking about and be able to order me the spring in. I take it no-one else has this quarter of a turn freeplay in the splined shaft? It should still work OK though, as the lever will return to its end position due to the springs on the lever itself.
-
we all have that quarter turn of play. its how the pump works.. but that missing idle spring, you basically have no governor at idle.. i dont see how it idles smooth, or how it even reaches WOT.. i bet once you have all the correct pieces in your governor, it will work awesome..
its a night and day difference in power when you do the gov mod.
-
When I put it all back together, I put the lever back on exactly how it came off and only noticed a marginal increase in power, however this could have been due to the max fuel screw wound in a tad more, as the collar was still on before. I was expecting a massive difference! It idles perfectly though :)
Is it normal that I had to push on a lever to allow the top of the pump to go back on?
-
i usually just take the max fuel screw out, then you dont have to push on that lever, and the pump top slips right on.
and it should have been a BIG increase in power.. not just a "little bit"
-
I'm 90% sure the max fuel screw was out! Which worries me...
-
Adi,
Believe it or not, this thread and your struggles are invaluable. Not so much for you, but for the next person that tries this. While it's unfortunate that you had to beat your head against the wall to figure it out, you figured it out, and learning by doing is the best way, so now you can be the one that says "Have you tried this? Are you sure you're not doing that?".
It all changes when you have that Eureka, "AHA!!!" moment.
-
I cannot wait for that moment! I've made a post on the UK mk2 owners site asking if anyone else has done this mod and is missing the idle spring, but I very much doubt I'l get a reply as GTDs are so rare, and are usually ditched for 1.9s, or PD engines from the mk4. I'm going to leave it be while its still running OK and hope that the Bosch specialist in town can hook me up with my missing spring. Hopefully once I've fitted the spring and meticulously re-fitted it all as per the 2010 governor thread, it'l give me the extra power I so badly want :D
-
I've been to the Bosch specialist and seen their exploded view of "my" pump. According to their diagram, my governor should have that idle spring, but it shouldn't have an intermediate spring and a main spring, it just shows one long spring inside the cage! I would have ordered just the idle spring, but you have to buy the governor as one unit, and it isn't cheap! So seeing as it runs as it is, I'm going to continue my trial and error with getting the splines set up.
Would it be easier for me to just wind the max fuel screw in quite a bit more than it is now, leave the throttle levers off it, and run it, turning the splined shaft until it idles correctly, then fit the levers on? I know it sounds backwards but I think this way of doing it may work ???
-
I've been to the Bosch specialist and seen their exploded view of "my" pump. According to their diagram, my governor should have that idle spring, but it shouldn't have an intermediate spring and a main spring, it just shows one long spring inside the cage! I would have ordered just the idle spring, but you have to buy the governor as one unit, and it isn't cheap! So seeing as it runs as it is, I'm going to continue my trial and error with getting the splines set up.
Would it be easier for me to just wind the max fuel screw in quite a bit more than it is now, leave the throttle levers off it, and run it, turning the splined shaft until it idles correctly, then fit the levers on? I know it sounds backwards but I think this way of doing it may work ???
just get one off one of the members here.. that spring takes up slack. and makes things work right. your pump will never reach full fueling without that spring. and it should have 3 springs on the governor. 1dle, intermediate, and main.. the single spring governors are usually found in cummins pumps, and are not caged..
you may have to push the throttle fulcrum plate a little to get the pump top back on. i cant remember, its been so long since ive been inside a pump. and the last one i did was a brand new n/a pump..
-
Well I've got it pretty much as good as I can today, had to adjust the idle by doing this with the cold start advance screws..
(http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp210/evee_photo/P110419_173801.jpg)
And this is how far I've got the max fuel screw in
(http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp210/evee_photo/P110419_173825.jpg)
With it set like this, the idle is at 1k, and it now smokes on boost, and pulls a bit better. When I first took it out it was unbelievably quick, but it was peaking at 25psi!! I've had to adjust the MBC, and got it back down to 19psi. I've resigned to the fact this is as good as its going to get ::)
-
why accept defeat?
im sure im not the only one with a dozen complete governors laying in a dish in my bedroom
and next time, you really should figure out EXACTLY what you are doing, instead of doing pump mods blindfolded, its not good practice..
i still have troubles with pumps occasionally, and ive had a grip of them opened up and taken apart..
25 psi is right around where it should have been.. does your wastegate not work? because the fuel screw should control your boost to a point, but the boost controller and wastegate keep it from over boosting..
-
But in the UK, these pumps aren't as ten a penny as they are for you guys! It was very quick at 25psi, but thats about 1.7bar, I thought these engines could only handle around 1.2bar on a standard head gasket? It was running at 19psi before I was able to wind the max fuel screw in a bit further, and I expected it to raise the boost anyway due to the extra heat from the extra fuel...
-
But in the UK, these pumps aren't as ten a penny as they are for you guys! It was very quick at 25psi, but thats about 1.7bar, I thought these engines could only handle around 1.2bar on a standard head gasket? It was running at 19psi before I was able to wind the max fuel screw in a bit further, and I expected it to raise the boost anyway due to the extra heat from the extra fuel...
They're not 10 a tuppence for us here, either, brother. I think the cheapest I've seen is 40quid, and that's a thrashed core pump (supposedly rebuildable, but I don't know that I trust it). runs a range from £40 for junk to £250 for medicore.
-
But in the UK, these pumps aren't as ten a penny as they are for you guys! It was very quick at 25psi, but thats about 1.7bar, I thought these engines could only handle around 1.2bar on a standard head gasket? It was running at 19psi before I was able to wind the max fuel screw in a bit further, and I expected it to raise the boost anyway due to the extra heat from the extra fuel...
there hardly cheap and easy to come by.. the only reason i have 10 pumps laying around, is because i scavenged them off my grandpas old, long gone projects..
usually its like oh, $100 bucks for a mediocre unit..
(i got a free car about a year ago, and it had a brand new pump and injectors just installed a few thousand miles before..
-
But in the UK, these pumps aren't as ten a penny as they are for you guys! It was very quick at 25psi, but thats about 1.7bar, I thought these engines could only handle around 1.2bar on a standard head gasket? It was running at 19psi before I was able to wind the max fuel screw in a bit further, and I expected it to raise the boost anyway due to the extra heat from the extra fuel...
there hardly cheap and easy to come by.. the only reason i have 10 pumps laying around, is because i scavenged them off my grandpas old, long gone projects..
usually its like oh, $100 bucks for a mediocre unit..
(i got a free car about a year ago, and it had a brand new pump and injectors just installed a few thousand miles before..
I stand corrected, ROR's had better luck at finding cheap pumps than I have.
-
i dont have that idle spring too...
i have on spring atached to the top,thought that that spring would control idle too as i have a good idle.
but also like adi i still have those splines problems as i have my lever sitting against the top body of the pump(doesent touch the idle screw) and cant add more fuel because of the idle that wont turn down more...
-
A lad in the UK on our mk2 forum has just had his governor out, and he's missing the idle spring too! Nice to know my car isn't the only one!
-
so whats the function of the long,skinny spring that ataches to the cover?
-
If you're talking about the one I'm thinking of it's for the cold start advance.
-
its the only one spring that ataches to the top.
and so why does the lacking idle spring affects the ability to lower the idle more by moving the shaft?
and why i have good idle?
so many whys lol...
-
that spring needs to be there to take up space. and for your cars governor to function at idle.
i imagine all you guys with no idle spring, are not even getting full throttle on the actual fuel collar.. that idle spring takes up space. and it was put there for a reason..
-
Or their governor is like a cummins, and has dispensed with 8 extra BS parts.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/4BT%20Governor%20spring%20install/PICT0023.jpg)
-
Or their governor is like a cummins, and has dispensed with 8 extra BS parts.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/4BT%20Governor%20spring%20install/PICT0023.jpg)
no, they dont have un-caged governors.. Adi states his governor is caged, just missing the idle spring..
they do have a spring in there, but its for the fast idle from the timing advance..
-
To get my idle down to something realistic I had to adjust the 2 little screws at the back for the advance. The left hand screw is all the way down, the right hand one all the way up. This is what quite a few people in the UK have had to do to get the idle to a realistic setting.
-
so,with no spring my idle is good.
if the spring takes up space in order to achieve full throttle why not to install something solid in order to have more travel?
i dont understand is why my idle is good,if they call it idle spring...
whitout knowing how the engine is idling and if somebody asked how it would do without that spring i would tell it would idle bad,like a drag truck...
i woudnt mind it would idle like a drag btw lol
-
The idle spring is probably there to reduce the little varied spots in the gov. operation at start up and idle. VW/Bousch probably quit putting them in as they realized it didn't make much if any difference in the real world. The pumps that I have had apart did not have an idle spring. They also had the yellow/red wax stuff on them to tell if someone tampered with it.