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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: trav1856 on February 19, 2011, 01:18:54 am
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I've got an 81 n/a, with a 3+E (4sp) .70 4th gear. (GP transmission)
I'm not finding much data on this thing, other than the gear ratios, no final drive ratio data and no overall data.
Is this an odd-duck transmission? Is it a desirable transmission to have? (for economy naturally).
or
Would it be wise to upgrade to an FN/H/J or 6G 5speed?
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i have the same trans its nice it has a .71 4th and 3.89. a 5 speed will go along smoother and will be nicer for going up hills and all, i have had both i am plenty happy with the 4 speed and it is the second tallest 020 u can get, the tallest is the 4a with a .70 4th so its not that different
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I had that same trans in my Rabbit sedan. If you were on flat roads, it was good. But dwonshifting to 3rd when going up hills really sucked. The difference between 3rd and 4th was huge.
I tried a few different transmissions before I pulled my head from my arse and figured out the codes. Here's what I'd do:
Here's what you'll want:
Tired-a$$ 1.5-1.6NA:
All of these have 3.94 R& P or higher, and a .76 or .71 5th gear.
AVX : out of 1991-1992 ECODiesel. These are RARE.
7A: out of 1983-1983 Jettas, Rabbits and rarely trucks. This was the 4+E trans. Also RARE.
4S: Supposedly they exist, but I've never seen one.
AGS: Out of 1985-1987 Jetta and Golf diesels (diesel only)
AOP: Out of 1987-1989 Jetta and Golf diesels.
ACH: Came in a variety of cars from 1985-1990
Healthy 1.5-1.6NA:
All of these have 3.89 R&P and .76 or .71 5th gears.
FF, FO, FH, FJ or FN: Came in most 5-speed cars from 1978-1982 including gas and diesel vehicles.
Or, any of the transmissions listed under "tired a$$ motor"
1.6TD, 1.7TD, or 1.9TD:
All of these have 3.67 R&P and .76 or .80 5th gear.
Any of the above transmissions except AVX.
ASF
ACN
AON
ACL
ATH
DFP
CHD
AMC
DFQ
CHE
Check it out:
http://www.scirocco.org/gears/ (http://www.scirocco.org/gears/)
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Also, be reminded that you'll need to swap many of the linkage parts, and the shifter box too in order to complete this conversion. But in the end, it's totally worth it.
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i wonder how a 3.67 with a .71 fifth would go along
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i wonder how a 3.67 with a .71 fifth would go along
That is what I run in my '82:
- http://www.4crawler.com/VWpickup.shtml#Transmission
So far it has worked well. In the process of swapping out the old leaking 1.6 pump for a Giles-built 1.9 pump and then see how it does.
Probably a little tall for a 1.5D or 1.6D, but fine for a TD or larger engine.
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Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.
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i wonder how a 3.67 with a .71 fifth would go along
That is what I run in my '82:
- http://www.4crawler.com/VWpickup.shtml#Transmission
So far it has worked well. In the process of swapping out the old leaking 1.6 pump for a Giles-built 1.9 pump and then see how it does.
Yeah, but aren't you running a 1.9? I wouldn't recommend a 3.67 for a 1.5 or 1.6na.
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My Caddy started out with a 4-speed.
I swapped in an FF 5-speed,and it seemed pretty natural, though I can't remember if I had it in there while the car was NA or not.
If I ever had the tranny out, I'd go with 5.
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i had an ff in my na jetta, then swapped a turbo diesel and another ff in to it, i really like the ff 3rd gear felt amazing at 25psi
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GP and 4A trannies are like having a 5 speed with blown up 4th gear..
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I'm on board with the guys above me: running one of these "3+E" trans on an n/a is like going through life with an amputated leg. EVEN an earlier normally ratioed 4 speed would be an improvement over one of these. Honestly, I know, as I had one of these in my old Rabbit years ago and ran it 75,000 short tempered/angry miles. Ants and stink bugs would create a vortex as they passed me up!
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I have a 1981 1.6 na, with the FF transmission. Its got a lot of miles on it.. 598k with one rebuild.
It is a blast to drive. I feel a closer ratio might be more fun in town though.
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The original trans in my '81 was a GC 4 speed.. Seems like I was always shifting, especially on the hills, and never could find just the right gear.. Swapped it for an '81 FF.. Worlds of difference.. After I trashed the FF I went with an ACH, and for my particular driving it's perfect.. It does wind a bit high on the highway, but I'm mostly on 2 lane with speed limits varying from 25 - 55 mph.. plus several hills and a mountain.. Granted I don't use 1st gear very much, unless I'm crawling around the junk yard or pushing cars around the parking lot with it, but I hardly have to shift on my commute now days, unless some spirited driving is in order..
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I have a 1981 1.6 na, with the FF transmission. Its got a lot of miles on it.. 598k with one rebuild.
It is a blast to drive. I feel a closer ratio might be more fun in town though.
FF is close ratio dude.. well, pretty close atleast.
drive a 4A..
but honestly, any of the Fx trannies are pretty close geared.
and diesels arent very fun with close ratio trannies, cause by the time your ready to shift, the gears are so close that the engine rpms dont fall enough to get the engine back down in its torque band.. they are fun, but wider ratio trannies like an ACN or something like that are funner :)
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I'm on board with the guys above me: running one of these "3+E" trans on an n/a is like going through life with an amputated leg. EVEN an earlier normally ratioed 4 speed would be an improvement over one of these. Honestly, I know, as I had one of these in my old Rabbit years ago and ran it 75,000 short tempered/angry miles. Ants and stink bugs would create a vortex as they passed me up!
yea, i totally agree.. i like the GC trans more than my 4A..
the GC might scream a little at high speeds, but my car still goes 115 mph, and doesnt get TOO HORRIBLE of mileage..
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AGS with the 3.67 FTW...
I wish it had a taller 2nd gear, but the only way for me to do it would be build a complete trans again. The 2nd I want is in the worst 5speed ever 2H and then I would have to pack all the gears from the AGS to it. Then if I do all that I would try to get the .71 fifth instead of the .75 at that point its really not worth it. It would probably be less work to go to an 02a,02j style at that point.
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Closer than the F series ;)
Like a 4K gasser trans with a .75 5th thrown in place of the .89 5th... behind a TD with the gov mod.. 50-5500rpm would be no big feat.. and way more fun in town than the FF/FN/7A trannies.. or the even more lethargic 4A/ACN.. Highway would be higher rpms, (not necessarily a bad thing, just less mpg) but if you were mostly in town (ME) then who cares.. These engine can sustain 5000rpm allll day long.
Ultimately I would love an AVX ;) chhyeaaa 4.25fd and and swap the 5th to .71. 100kmh(61mph) at 2580-2600.. with huuuge acceleration too.
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Closer than the F series ;)
Like a 4K gasser trans with a .75 5th thrown in place of the .89 5th... behind a TD with the gov mod.. 50-5500rpm would be no big feat.. and way more fun in town than the FF/FN/7A trannies.. or the even more lethargic 4A/ACN.. Highway would be higher rpms, (not necessarily a bad thing, just less mpg) but if you were mostly in town (ME) then who cares.. These engine can sustain 5000rpm allll day long.
Ultimately I would love an AVX ;) chhyeaaa 4.25fd and and swap the 5th to .71. 100kmh(61mph) at 2580-2600.. with huuuge acceleration too.
have you ever driven an ACN? they are far from lethargic.. even with an 85 horsepower gasser in front of it, i still love both of my ACN trannies.. they are superior trannies to the later mk2 units.. ive ran lots of mk1, 2, and 3 trannies, and my favorites are the ACN/ACH trannies.. they are best suited to diesels, and my driving styles.. (least thats how i feel about it)
the 4A on the other hand, ive never disliked a tranny more..
the ACN rocks because gears 1-4 are still rather close, but fifth is nice and tall for cruising..
and jeremy, im pretty sure the AVX has a .71 fifth already to make up for that retarded low geared final drive..
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never driven an ACN.. just going by ratios. However it would appear i was comparing the 4K to the one below the ACN.. so my ratios were all mixed up.
ACN does seem a decent tranny, dunno if i would want the 3.67 behind a n/a though is all.
the AVX has a .75 5th.. the diff between the ACN and AVX at cruising speeds is a mere 350rpms. hardly noticeable really.
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So...
TD AGS with 3.67 FTW
N/A AGS with normal 3.94 FTW
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lmao. Yup Lucas you got the mother of all TRANS. ;)
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I am currently running a CHE behind my 1.6TD. It's a '94 big shaft trans which made me do a lot of changes to make it work. The bigger input shaft (28mm vs 24mm) uses the 215mm disc which won't work on the 200mm flywheel. I could have had the centers swapped but $$$$. I opted instead to use the entire flywheel and pressure plate. The flywheel is 11# vs 13# so it might rev quicker and the vibration isn't any worse than it ever was. I ran an ACN for awhile but .75 was too tall for the one hill I had to climb. I ran a CHB next but .85 but the engine in the buzzy zone at cruising speed. Bad linkage did a cross shift and it blew. I came across the CHE in a '94 jetta with a 2.0 gasser. Acceleration was a little more snappy in the CHB but this trans shifts very smooth and the bigger disc grabs better. Two notes: 1, use Red Line MT fluid. This works the best in these guys. 2, For anyone buying clutch parts, tell 'em it's a '93. There's like $100 difference but the parts work the same.
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Belchfire:
What did you put the CHE in?
Does it have the stud holes for the MK1?
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Perhaps, on paper, a 4.25 final sounds plausible or usable or survivable....on paper or staring back at you on the screen.
But, in reality, it really bites. My Eco (who spends all his time in storage) has one of these. And, let me assure you, whenever I start using this car, THAT transmission will come OUT first.
Or, maybe it would appeal to you if you like to ride 125 motocrossers.....but, no thanks.
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I'm thinking I want to go with:
FN, FF, FH, FJ (most from '81) 3.89 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.71
That'll give me same final drive ratio, and most of my driving will be commuting 120mi a day on the highway (with 10 of that being city driving in the middle). Currently it's a N/A (seems to be running healthy and strong, slight oil in the coolant, but that could be from a headgasket change before I bought it....or the reason for the headgasket change)....I don't know about the history prior to when I bought it.
My thoughts are to put the bolt-on turbo thing from www.hansautoparts.com for $450. I'm not sure why you guys suggested a different transmission for a turbo application, would like some input on that.
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Perhaps, on paper, a 4.25 final sounds plausible or usable or survivable....on paper or staring back at you on the screen.
But, in reality, it really bites. My Eco (who spends all his time in storage) has one of these. And, let me assure you, whenever I start using this car, THAT transmission will come OUT first.
Or, maybe it would appeal to you if you like to ride 125 motocrossers.....but, no thanks.
if i had a 1.5 gasser that spun a million RPMS, the AVX would be my trans of choice.. but in a diesel limited to about 5500 rpms, NO WAY IN HELL!!
and i really dont think a ACN wouldnt be that bad behind a n/a.. they came factory with a 4A, GL trannies, and those ones only make the engine turn 35 more rpms @ 60..
i owned a 4A-n/a rabbit, and it wasnt THAT HORRIBLE.. but it really had lots of power for a stock diesel.
i also own 2 cars equipped with ACN trannies, and i really enjoy them. i really feel the only way to get any better is to make your own tranny like Lucas did..
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With regards to fatmobile: I put the CHE in my '81 caddy. I have found that the 020 case seems to be the same throughout. The brackets & mounts change but you just swap them over. I think that I had to swap some studs for the rear mount. Smaller axle flanges were swapped too with no problem. (note that new end seals should be used otherwise you'll fill the CV joint w/trans juice)
As for why I chose the 3.67 R&P, it was because all first gears are 3.45. Heavy, underpowered cars need gutter gears to get off the line and still have a clutch left. The bad part is that the engine is red lined and you're doing 10 MPH. Meanwhile, Billy Bob has just climbed his 4X4 into your back seat. Running a higher R&P gives you a bit higher speed before you bang second. The NA doesn't have the poop to pull the higher gears too well but the turbo kicks in the boost and off you go. If most of your driving is flat land at cruising speed then the 4 spd would do adequate providing that the last overall ratio was appropriate. More gears give you versatility. If you have a pipsqueek engine or a race engine with a narrow power band, then you want to keep it in the sweet spot as much as possible. Does anyone remember the 125 Hodaka w/ the 10 speed trans? The NA diesel will get your butt from A to B if that's all you want, but here in the big city, every looser cruiser thinks it's death race 2011. I enjoy closing the door on them when they think that they can cut off some slug V-Dub and I can usually leave them when it starts pulling hard going up a hill at 70 mph.
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My thoughts are to put the bolt-on turbo thing from www.hansautoparts.com for $450.
Before you buy, do a search here or at Vortex for "Prothe"
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I'm thinking I want to go with:
FN, FF, FH, FJ (most from '81) 3.89 3.45 1.94 1.29 0.91 0.71
I'm not sure why you guys suggested a different transmission for a turbo application, would like some input on that.
The FN, FF, FH, FJ or even the 7A will be a good match for a turbo application. The reason they are good is because they have taller gears, meaning your engine will be in its torque range more often.. instead of screaming around above 2500rpms, the shorter geared trans are for gas engine that make their torque and power up higher. Each to take advantage of a different thing.
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I looked all over for a new 3.32 R & P
I found two set's of 3.67 , still looking for that 3.22 thou..
3.32 IS CORRECT
GB
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Forgot to mention in my last post about brokevw.com There's a wealth of information on these transaxles.
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I looked all over for a new 3.42 R & P
I found two set's of 3.67 , still looking for that 3.42 thou..
GB
i dont know that they made 3.42 gears for an 020 trans.. least ive never seen or heard of them..
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IIRC the 16v big imput shaft had a vw motorsport special that was 3.32
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(stolen directly from scirocco.org/gears)
VW MotorSport Ring & Pinions (small input shaft, 8v): 4.20, 4.46, 4.64, 4.81, 5.07
VW MotorSport Ring & Pinions (large input shaft, 16v): 3.32, 4.20, 4.46, 4.64, 4.81, 5.07
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My thoughts are to put the bolt-on turbo thing from www.hansautoparts.com for $450.
Before you buy, do a search here or at Vortex for "Prothe"
Okay, the IP I can understand, it is, after all, a watch-like piece of hardware that has to be done correctly, heartbeat of the engine, and all that. That is what I'm finding most of the complaints about. I'm not finding a turbo complaint, and most turbos are chinese or indian these days anyway, so I'm not quite sure I follow your logic there....and I've seen know complaints on the turbos (perhaps a product of first glance).
I'm not defending the man, but I do know a little something about the human condition. Happy people don't complain. So you get one (figuratively speaking), that has a bad experience, the frequency he shares his complaint story is exponentially proportionate to the $ he spent. (then again, I've complained about things over a dollar, just on principle). That being said, I've found NO posts about people who were satisifed. That doesn't mean there are not satisfied people who've purchased his products. (IP's not withstanding, I've seen enough evidence that satisfies me on that score).
But some of these posts saying "don't buy from Prothe" are ludicrous at best. That's like saying all christians play with rattlesnakes, all jews have lots of gold, and all muslims drive car-bombs. There's no empirical evidence to support the claim. (the cat is both alive and not-alive.)
but is buying an oil-pan from him going to blow up my car? Of course not. If I buy a turbo kit is it going to blow up my car? Maybe, maybe not....
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have you seen his turbos? and seen the balancing marks on the shafts?
they literally have to grind off half the nut head on the turbine end..
so, if you gotta grind off that much metal to get it to balance, where is the casting flaws?
idk, theres no way in hell that im gonna risk a prothe turbo.. and his kit doesnt even have the right intake manifold.
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The thing is you haven't been here all that long. There have been people such as myself that have been had by him AND got good report of his stuff. If you read just the threads that I have posted in about his stuff it would take too long to really glean the good out of it...there is some, but you would have to go through 99% of the bad to find it. And that is the point, just search and see what has been said and make your own decision.
I just bought some door handles off him and would have bought some mirrors if he had my style. NOT that I don't think they will be good quality pieces, I am pretty sure they won't be, but I will be out 6 dollars a handle if it doesn't work out. My engine will not be in any danger, I just will have to open another door. That and I know how he has handled my orders in the past, any problems are dealt with by not answering emails and phone calls. If you do get junk from him I personally haven't had any kind of customer service----GeeBee did when he got a plastic water outlet and it was supposed to be cast and he not only got into him, but got the cast part sent to him. So there is another 1/2 good for him.
If you choose to use his stuff that is your deal. If you think we are just thinking we are only saying bad, we aren't, it is just that bad you have to look a long, long, long time. In the same regard as you wanting to see an unbiased review of him I WOULD FEEL HORRIBLE IF I didn't let you know that there problems and just go buy whatever. We try to look out for eachother :D
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we are not saying "steer clear of Prothe" just to hear outselves talk..
like Lucas already said, we are just looking out for each other..
why bash your head on a brick wall, when others have already done it, and will tell you that it hurts?
some people just feel the need to find out on their own i guess..
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One of his outlet's were reproduction alloy , the T coming towards the rad, poor casting but usable..
All of his hoses are typical China *** with abs center's
Not like the original german one piece molded, VW sent ( meyle)all there new production stuff
there total crap
So when you have a hose fail in the middle of no where, You will see why I dedcided to do the VW model's ( silicone hose assy's )
Iam still looking for a new alloy 026121144 E
vwdieselparts.com , shows alloy, buy it's the bait and switch sale
tar & feather the bastard !
GB
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now that is better, specific examples.
Okay, so we've complained about it. Have any of you gone to him and said, "hey, your intake manifold is incorrect"? or did you just come on here and complain? If you did go to him, did he make good on it?
I'm not knocking anyone, just playing devil's advocate. Being the critical thinker that I am. That's why we're here after all. There's no need for the "You're new here, aren't you". (this much is obvious, and doesn't need to be mentioned).
Okay, so hoses, belts (i've heard those are bad), I noticed his oilpan is out of stock, so yeah, it doesn't look good. Call this a litmus if you will, and I'm stirring the pot a lil'. I'm neither for or against anyone, however, I do like to see unbiased opinions backed up by as much factual information as possible.
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So is the consensus pretty much, if you want turbo, get a Jetta engine?
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now that is better, specific examples.
Okay, so we've complained about it. Have any of you gone to him and said, "hey, your intake manifold is incorrect"? or did you just come on here and complain? If you did go to him, did he make good on it?
I'm not knocking anyone, just playing devil's advocate. Being the critical thinker that I am. That's why we're here after all. There's no need for the "You're new here, aren't you". (this much is obvious, and doesn't need to be mentioned).
Okay, so hoses, belts (i've heard those are bad), I noticed his oilpan is out of stock, so yeah, it doesn't look good. Call this a litmus if you will, and I'm stirring the pot a lil'. I'm neither for or against anyone, however, I do like to see unbiased opinions backed up by as much factual information as possible.
Seriously, search. All the things you want discussed have been. Just about all parts short of some body parts are not good. THe wheel arches don't fit, the door handles don't open or break first pull, timing kits that grenade your engine in less than 20,000 miles, and the main thing for me - he will not back his stuff or give customer service.
It is relevant that you are new. If you had been here and elsewhere you wouldn't be having this posting going this. Critical thinking is best when you search and read every post. There are only 425 pages in the IDI so it shouldn't take you long. Most will not have anything to do with prothe or his prodcts, but you will have fun and learn. Telling myself and others what is not good and relevant is a good way to get ignored here. If you buck good knowledge now I will not offer good knowledge later kind of thing.
As said before you will do what you wish but don't bame me for not giving you good info on your purchases. Good luck to your Sir.
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Nevermind, I should have stopped at just search.
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touché lol
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off subject, but there is new KO3's on ebay for less than a overhaul..
GB
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Nevermind, I should have stopped at just search.
Okay, I'm going to just ignore that as pretentious old-timer babble. Had you read what I had previously wrote, you would've seen "what I'm reading about...."
Logic would dictate that I have already searched, now wouldn't it?
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now that is better, specific examples.
Okay, so we've complained about it. Have any of you gone to him and said, "hey, your intake manifold is incorrect"? or did you just come on here and complain? If you did go to him, did he make good on it?
I'm not knocking anyone, just playing devil's advocate. Being the critical thinker that I am. That's why we're here after all. There's no need for the "You're new here, aren't you". (this much is obvious, and doesn't need to be mentioned).
Okay, so hoses, belts (i've heard those are bad), I noticed his oilpan is out of stock, so yeah, it doesn't look good. Call this a litmus if you will, and I'm stirring the pot a lil'. I'm neither for or against anyone, however, I do like to see unbiased opinions backed up by as much factual information as possible.
if you dont believe us, then just buy something from him. i think you should buy an injection pump and see just how good the quality is? ;D