VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: dyoungen on January 24, 2011, 09:33:00 pm
-
Well, I"m going to do what needs done and replace the intermediate shaft bearings. What would anybody suggest I do before I start? Turn over the engine till I"m at top dead center or??????????? ??? I figure I"ll replace the belt while I"m into the engine and just wondering if there's anything else I should look at.
-
Ok, that part I understand. I'm asking about what do I need to do to get to the intermediate shaft out of the engine, tilting the engine, removing the motor mounts etc. I"ve read where some times it's easier to tilt the engine forward or backwards, stuff like that. Sorry I didn't explain it better what I"m looking for.
-
is it a mk1 or mk2?
either way, its a dirty B_tch to get those things out when there still in the engine, still in the car.
-
Smoking eddy got his out, you may want to try a different approach though.
-
I did it in-car on a 1981 Rabbit truck. I removed all the mounts except the driver's side trans mount. I also had to completely remove the injection pump/motor mount bracket from the pass side. Once I did that, I tilted the motor down (with the car already on jack-stands), and did the repair. However, I only did the outer bearing. I did not replace the inner. I'm not sure you could do both in the car. That would be a real PITA.
-
Well, that would have been the hard part for me. The engine was supported by a jack. If you had a rig to support it from above, then sure.
-
Sorry, I guess it would help if I told what kind of VW I have. It is a 1985 Jetta n/a Diesel with a 5 speed. MK2 from what I understand. I already have the 2 bearings and have the tools to install the new bearings.
-
You might be able to undo the rear mount on the pass side near the exhaust manifold, and then maybe the front mount. You might be able to jack up the car enough to get it over the inner fender. The Rabbit's don't have enough room to jack it up and get it over the inner fender. But I think on a MK2, you could be able to do it. That way, you don't have to have the think on floor jacks.
Do a search. I think someone else did it on a 1985 Golf.
-
I did the outer on my '91 Jetta. Seems like I removed the front and rear mounts , tilted , and pulled the I-shaft out through the wheel well. I had the oil pan off as I was re-ringing the engine as well.
-
i haven't seen my bearings yet but i just found a pile of bearing bits in my oil pan and im gettign low oil pressure.
Im going to see if i cant remove the majority of the engine, if its those bearings, (or the rear one as i recall it was damaged on install) and get a shop to do it...
even then i dont know how they do it... it seems like a near impossible job to do. I had to mcgiver some crap together and i still didn't do it right.
I know some folks on here had bits machined that did it but i still dont see how they pulled the bearing in straight.
that was my biggest issue.
-
I don't recall that keeping it straight was too hard. IIRC I tapped it in lightly first to start it.
-
With the oil pan off I don't think it's too hard to do the inner IM bearing. I did just the outer bearing on my buddies '85 TD very easily without removing the oil pan.
-
finding bearings means removing more than the intermediate shaft. ex: check rod bearings/cam caps ect..
or am I crazy?
-
If the IM shaft bearings are indeed gone then I wouldn't bother checking the other bearings. What's the chances that more than one bearing fell apart at once?
EDIT: If it was low on oil pressure then it would make sense to lose all or most of the bearings at once, but a pre-damaged bearing won't hurt the rest provided there's still pressure.
-
seriously? because bearing bits in the oil run through the other bearings/oil pump...
are you saying if you spun a rod bearing, you would not even check the crank bearings?
because:"What's the chances that more than one bearing fell apart at once?"
that is short sighted logic right there.
-
i haven't seen my bearings yet but i just found a pile of bearing bits in my oil pan and im gettign low oil pressure.
Im going to see if i cant remove the majority of the engine, if its those bearings, (or the rear one as i recall it was damaged on install) and get a shop to do it...
even then i dont know how they do it... it seems like a near impossible job to do.
If it really was damaged on install that might explain something..........hopefully the oil pickup screen caught the big chunks and the filter caught the rest. What all gets checked might depend on why the bearing fell out, like if it was from low oil pressure then yes I'd check everything but if it was from knocking it halfway out putting the shaft in then I'd just install a new bearing.
-
If the IM shaft bearings are indeed gone then I wouldn't bother checking the other bearings. What's the chances that more than one bearing fell apart at once?
EDIT: If it was low on oil pressure then it would make sense to lose all or most of the bearings at once, but a pre-damaged bearing won't hurt the rest provided there's still pressure.
IM bearing failures are super common on these engines. The timing belt gets overtightened and then the bearing fractures and flakes away. The pieces get dumped in to the oil pan, but you've got a screen and a filter there. The low pressure is generally caused by the oil leaking around the IM shaft bearing, but it frequently doesn't mean death to the other bearings in the engine.
Generally the IM shaft bearings fail due to a problem that is totally external to the rest of the bearings, so it's a fairly reasonable approach to just replace them by themselves.
--EDIT: spelling
-
What's the best way to check the condition of the IM bearings short of taking it out and measuring it? Oil pressure? Oil analysis? As to belt tension, can you use a tensioner from a TDI which has an automatic tensioner built in? That would eliminate over tensioning.
If the IM shaft bearings are indeed gone then I wouldn't bother checking the other bearings. What's the chances that more than one bearing fell apart at once?
EDIT: If it was low on oil pressure then it would make sense to lose all or most of the bearings at once, but a pre-damaged bearing won't hurt the rest provided there's still pressure.
IM bearing failures are super common on these engines. The timing belt gets overtightened and then the bearing fractures and flakes away. The pieces get dumped in to the oil pan, but you've got a screen and a filter there. The low pressure is generally caused by the oil leaking around the IM shaft bearing, but it frequently doesn't mean death to the other bearings in the engine.
Generally the IM shaft bearings fail due to any problem that is totally external to the rest of the bearings, so it's a fairly reasonable approach to just replace them by themselves.
-
+1 vanbcguy
My IM bearings in my 1983 turbo CY engine were completely flaked apart with a pile in the bottom of the pan. After 221K miles, both the main and rod bearings were smooth, measured for NO oversize, and had just a slight discoloration. Cylinder bores needed a full .5mm to restore. The oil used was generally Delo400 10-40 with a sketchy change interval.
-
What's the best way to check the condition of the IM bearings short of taking it out and measuring it? Oil pressure? Oil analysis? As to belt tension, can you use a tensioner from a TDI which has an automatic tensioner built in? That would eliminate over tensioning.
To check 'em I just pull the shaft and look at the bearings and see it they're flaking at all.
I'm not sure on this but aren't TDI timing belts way tighter than these IDI belts?
-
not much tighter if at all, but they have auto tensioners and lots more rollers.
-
On my jetta I was lucky and didn't have to remove that passenger side back mount to pull the intermediate shaft completely out when doing a timing belt job. I already saw the bits in my oil after I got the car home and when I pulled the shaft there were tons of bits I could pull off with my fingernail, all of it became dislodged once I disturbed it.
What sucks for me though is I believe I am teetering on low oil pressure still after replacing. My high end buzzer keeps going off so I disconnected it. At first I thought it was acting up because it would go off then hang and go away when blipping the throttle until the next time, usually on a tight high speed turn.
I put a manual gage in and I think I get less than 20 when hot idling, that is with the port in the head. It goes up as I put more pedal into it approaching 40+ at 3000 rpm.
Now I am kicking myself for not putting in a windage tray and perhaps the bigger oil pump(not sure what i had in there).
I would love to do that but my problem is I didn't use an oil pan gasket and used some right stuff and have no idea how the hell to seperate the halves now.
-
15-20 hot idle with 40psi hot at 3krpm is not terrible.
-
15-20 hot idle with 40psi hot at 3krpm is not terrible.
^^^ true that.
I've had plenty of engines with less pressure than that. Less than 10PSI hot idle after a freeway run is about when you know you're starting to have to think about a rebuild. 20PSI is golden - you're doing great.
Sounds like you might have a bad pressure sensor - I can't recall what the actual pressure requirement for the high sensor was but I'd bet Vince W. has it on his site.
-
my old 1.5TD at hot idle, had just enough oil pressure to bring my autometer gauge off the peg (6-8psi i would guess) and about 40-50 cruisin down the road..
and i ran the hell out of that thing. ended up killing it from too much boost. head almost left the block. cracked 7 head bolt bosses..
-
I wish it's that easy. On my Jetta, it hits the inner fender. The engine has to come out or at least up.
To check 'em I just pull the shaft and look at the bearings and see it they're flaking at all.
-
On my jetta I was lucky and didn't have to remove that passenger side back mount to pull the intermediate shaft completely out when doing a timing belt job.
Please explain what you did to pull the IM shaft out. What year is your Jetta?
-
On the Mk2, the IM shaft can be removed through the right wheel well if you remove the front and back mounts
-
On the Mk2, the IM shaft can be removed through the right wheel well if you remove the front and back mounts
Is that so you can lower or raise the engine? By how much?
-
15-20 hot idle with 40psi hot at 3krpm is not terrible.
^^^ true that.
I've had plenty of engines with less pressure than that. Less than 10PSI hot idle after a freeway run is about when you know you're starting to have to think about a rebuild. 20PSI is golden - you're doing great.
Sounds like you might have a bad pressure sensor - I can't recall what the actual pressure requirement for the high sensor was but I'd bet Vince W. has it on his site.
From the official VAG mag, I think this holds true for hydro as well, but not entirely sure:
For mech heads, 'pressure at filter for TD or n/a is 2 bar at 2000rpm. 0.3 bar sensor on head must operate between 0.15 and 0.45 bar, at head' :o
So from that I deduce minimum allowable pressure at head is about 2.2psi any time :o
-
On the Mk2, the IM shaft can be removed through the right wheel well if you remove the front and back mounts
X2
I would love to do that but my problem is I didn't use an oil pan gasket and used some right stuff and have no idea how the hell to seperate the halves now.
If you put tons of right stuff on then that's probably your low oil pressure problem. There's probably gobs of it clogging the oil pickup screen. To have 20psi at idle (which is very good) and only 40 at 3000 (ok but not very linear) tells me there's an oil flow problem at higher rpm.
-
On the Mk2, the IM shaft can be removed through the right wheel well if you remove the front and back mounts
I that so you can lower or raise the engine? By how much?
3.5768" lower . Give or take.... I don't remember but not too much. I had the car up on jack stands. The hardest part is getting your head in there somewhere to see what you are doing.
X2 on the use of RTV as an oil pan gasket. Bad practice and a red flag for low oil pressure.
-
Who is a good source for a quality intermediate shaft bearing for my 92 Jetta? I know my outer bearing has play in it and I want to replace it before it flakes away.
-
Who is a good source for a quality intermediate shaft bearing for my 92 Jetta? I know my outer bearing has play in it and I want to replace it before it flakes away.
clevite
basically any bearings besides anything that says REAM TO FIT..
-
More seaching found this thread
https://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,1676.0.html
reply#8 has some part numbers.
Clevite # SH1209S was mentioned.
Did a search on # SH1209S and found this from Rockauto.com
http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/prt,116,SH1209S
which is listed as a camshaft bearing. I called Rock Auto and they confirmed that is a cam shaft bearing. The question is: will it also work as the intermediate shaft bearings?
Germanautoparts.com has Dura Bond VWG-1 bearings http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Engine/14/3
The other VW site has some good info https://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,59051.0.html
There's some good info here from Clevite on checking and fitting bearings http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1102018
-
Searching Clevite's site on SH-1209 found these dimensions
http://catalog.mahleclevite.com/lv/display_partdetail.php?cram=SH1209S&direct=1
-
Ok, I finally am ready to R&R the intermediate shaft bearings. Anybody got the short list of things to do or remove to get the shaft out? I looked at the engine and it' won't come out unless the engine is jacked up as the IM shaft will hit the shock tower on the right side/ passenger side. I drove it to the shop where I"ll be doing the work, about 300 feet and she had 80lbs oil pressure when cold. I was surprised as it's been about 6 months since she ran last and I didn't have to use anything extra to get her going. I did read all everybody has posted and don't think it's going to be to bad. I have a set of car ramps I figure I"ll use to get her up off the floor.
-
Do you have a Mk1 or Mk2? It would be a good idea to put this info in your sig...
-
Sorry I didn't let you know what I have. I have a 1985 Jetta, N/A Diesel with a 5 speed. I believe I"ve been told it's a MKII. Stock everything as far as I know. Ran great till it dropped the oil pressure. I had the oil pan off to check the oil pump screen and it was clean, real clean. Didn't use RTV when I replaced the oil pan gasket. It had about 80 lbs oil pressure when I started it to move it to the shop where I"m going to work on it, about 300/400 feet. I have the IM bearings and tooling to replace the bearings.