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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: RustyToy on September 24, 2010, 03:14:12 pm
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well, yesterday I blew the head gasket. I've seen it coming for a while now, I'm about 90% certain that the PO put a new gasket on reusing the old bolts.
so yesterday I pulled the head off and carted it off to the machine shop. When I pulled the bolts out each one had 3 spacers on it. Is this normal? My new bolts came with one. Not 3.
I'm putting it all back together tomorrow evening. I'd love some insight on this before I put it all back together. Anybody got any they would like to share?
Thanks!
Almost forgot. This is for my '85 1.6NA Golf.
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It is probably an 11mm head or the PO used some non-standard head bolts.
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They were triple square bolts. I have no doubt they were reused and stretched. Wondering if perhaps that wasn't the reason for the 'extra' spacers? I hesitate to call them extra because I don't know how many are supposed to be there. ???
As far as it being an 11mm head, The head has machined recesses for the head bolts to fit into. When I pulled the bolts there was a washer that fit perfectly into that recessed area,then another washer on top of that (slightly thinner) and then the washer that comes on the bolt. (and they just slid right off the bolt)
I guess question now is, should I put it back together the way it came apart? I'm inclined to lean towards a yes on that one.
Another quick question regarding head gasket. The gasket that came off was a 2 notch gasket. I have nothing available to measure piston protrusion above the deck surface. Knowing that I just had .003 inches shaved off the head and knowing that the head had been off at least once before (possibly shaved) would i be safer to go with a 3 notch gasket?
Inquiring minds and all that......
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i really doubt you can stretch an old head bolt that much. 2 extra spacers makes up like ~1/4" and if you stretched a bolt that bad, you could see it holding it up next to a decent bolt.. he probably had some extra washers left over from the non stretch bolts.. used them there.
but he probably also didnt know that the non stretch bolts are re-useable..
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I've seen 11mm diesel cylinder heads bolted down with 12pt. Gasser bolts. I don't think it lasts long though. I always thought that 11mm bolt diesel blocks used 6pt. reuseable bolts. Or is it the other way?
Anyone confirm this.
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Yes, the factory used 6-point socket headed bolts on the 11mm diesel head that are reusable (if you dare).
Are you sure this is a 12mm block we are talking about?
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Are you sure this is a 12mm block we are talking about?
To be perfectly honest, i'm not certain of much at this point. This little Golf is giving me a crash course in VW repair. 11mm,12mm,mech,hydro,1 notch,2 notch,3 notch,ordering "Head Gasket Sets" that Ironically don't include anything resembling a head gasket.
This is what I do know. The head has been machined,the deck cleaned,new head gasket and new bolts are installed and torqued down. Now this afternoon I am going to throw on a new timing belt because while cranking the engine around by hand last night to make sure that nothing was binding or hitting something it wasn't supposed to (pistons & valves) I noticed just how bad my timing belt looks.
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Are you sure this is a 12mm block we are talking about?
To be perfectly honest, i'm not certain of much at this point. This little Golf is giving me a crash course in VW repair. 11mm,12mm,mech,hydro,1 notch,2 notch,3 notch,ordering "Head Gasket Sets" that Ironically don't include anything resembling a head gasket.
This is what I do know. The head has been machined,the deck cleaned,new head gasket and new bolts are installed and torqued down. Now this afternoon I am going to throw on a new timing belt because while cranking the engine around by hand last night to make sure that nothing was binding or hitting something it wasn't supposed to (pistons & valves) I noticed just how bad my timing belt looks.
you get a gasser head gasket kit, then order the proper thickness diesel gasket for it. thats how most places sell them atleast.
and my 11mm diesel has 12pt gasser stretch bolts. it has to. cause its a 16D, with a 17mm crank bolt. so it should have 11mm head bolts.
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to the OP. If you have a 12mm block, you can either use 12mm stretch bolts that VW intended or retrofit with studs. 11mm bolts will not fit a 12mm block (they are to small in ID).
If you have an 11mm block, you can reuse the original 11mm hex socket head bolts (danger), , use studs or, as ROR did, use gasser 11mm stretch bolts. I do not know how well this works, though I have pulled quite a number of heads out of boneyards with this arrangement (is that why they were there?). The options with an 11mm block are not great.
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personal opinion is that the head bolts just dont care. i run 22 psi to my 1.6 with gasser head bolts and it takes it gladly and just asks for more..
and i did not put the bolts there, i would have used cosworth studs.. some other previous retard before me put them in.
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just to clarify. To chase the threads in the head bolt holes I used a 12x1.75 tap. So I'm going out on a limb and calling it a 12mm block. I used oem 12mm stretch bolts. New ones.
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I don't see a reply to your head gasket question.
Shaving the head means nothing to the head gasket.
Use a new 2 notch if you cant measure to make sure.
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I don't see a reply to your head gasket question.
Shaving the head means nothing to the head gasket.
Use a new 2 notch if you cant measure to make sure.
You're right. Never did get an answer to that question. I went ahead with a 2 notch gasket. Same as what I took off.
since I bought the car I've suspected the pump timing was off a tudge. Now after installing a new belt and quintuple checking that EVERY mark is EXACTLY where it it supposed to be I am headed out to the shop with my new dial meter to set the pump timing and see if she'll fire. i miss driving my Golf. i miss being able to fuel up on Monday and go all week on one tank of fuel. (140 mile daily commute!)
Wish me luck!
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I don't see a reply to your head gasket question.
Shaving the head means nothing to the head gasket.
Use a new 2 notch if you cant measure to make sure.
You're right. Never did get an answer to that question. I went ahead with a 2 notch gasket. Same as what I took off.
since I bought the car I've suspected the pump timing was off a tudge. Now after installing a new belt and quintuple checking that EVERY mark is EXACTLY where it it supposed to be I am headed out to the shop with my new dial meter to set the pump timing and see if she'll fire. i miss driving my Golf. i miss being able to fuel up on Monday and go all week on one tank of fuel. (140 mile daily commute!)
Wish me luck!
Actually, because valves are not flush with the head, but slightly sunk, skimming head brings valves closer to piston at TDC. This raises the compression slightly, [[not neccessarilya bad thing] but also increases the likelyhood of valve clash. I have recently reringed an overskimmed head that used to have a 2 nothch gasket. Valve clash means that I had to use a3 notch, [or actuallly a 5 notch 1.5] to gain a few thou gap . The only downside, is that I've gone from 45mpg to 55 to 65mpg ;D...
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i have done this... and the guys 11mm head bolt head is why...
the 12mm heads have more area then the 11mm ones do.. so you have to add said spacers else the bolts will bottom out..
ive also done gasser strech bolts on old 11mm head/block too..
so basically i expect you have a modded 11mm head on a 12mm block and hence require said spacers/washers..
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why would there only be 3 washers on ONE bolt then? not all 10? your theory would make sense if each bolt had 3 washers..
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Actually, because valves are not flush with the head, but slightly sunk, skimming head brings valves closer to piston at TDC. This raises the compression slightly, [[not neccessarilya bad thing] but also increases the likelyhood of valve clash. I have recently reringed an overskimmed head that used to have a 2 nothch gasket. Valve clash means that I had to use a3 notch, [or actuallly a 5 notch 1.5] to gain a few thou gap . The only downside, is that I've gone from 45mpg to 55 to 65mpg ;D...
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Uh, you are supposed to cut the valve seats at the same time.
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Exactly how do I determine whether it is an 11mm or 12mm head?
i ask because I am about to tear it back apart.
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The head bolts are either 11mm or 12mm...
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The head bolts are either 11mm or 12mm...
That aint gonna work. the block is a 12mm block, judging by the 12mm bolts that came out of it.
an earlier post in this thread made reference to a 'modified 11mm head' needing those additional spacers on the bolts to keep th bolts from bottoming out.
I need to know whether there is any other way to determine what it is so I know whether those spacers are going to be required when putting it back together.
Another related question: If I were to replace the bolts with studs, am I going to need those spacers?
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Ok lets see if I can be a little clearer for you.
Are you using a different head than you removed?
Yes it's different; then see if the 12mm bolts go through the holes, if they do its a 12mm head if not its a 11mm head.
No its the same head; than its a 12mm head as 12mm bolts will not fit in a 11mm head..
Hows that? Clear?
Chances of you having a modified 11mm head are SA-LIM...
Now for another point, There is no reason for there to be "extra" washers on the bolt if they are the correct head bolts.
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Now for another point, There is no reason for there to be "extra" washers on the bolt if they are the correct head bolts.
Now that is an answer I can use!
In fact, if memory serves, that answers the question that i opened this thread with.
Thanks!